New discovery in the automotive industry. Intercoolers are now obsolete
01-26-2008, 08:18 PM
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New discovery in the automotive industry. Intercoolers are now obsolete
New discovery of the automotive industry. Intercoolers are now obsolete by a new Ultra-Mega-Freeze-Chill ...
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread...91#post2913491
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread...91#post2913491
Last edited by j_man; 01-27-2008 at 11:09 AM.
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01-26-2008, 09:45 PM
#3
Im gonna rip the FMIC out my 9-3 and stick 16 injectors and 3 powercards in it. I also am gonna replace my AC Compressor with 2 injectors and 4 powercards in parallel. Should make it blow nice and cold. Then when I get enough money together I'm gonna rip the central AC out, and just replace it with a couple of 1600CC injectors and an ELF.
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01-27-2008, 10:14 AM
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everyone start voting for the M45 kit so I can sell him mine.
also, this 95M i just picked up with the M45 is on it's 3rd engine. But thats a good thing for me since the engine in it has only 6k now. Not sure the guy knew what he was doing but it's obvious it needed better engine management.
It has some sort of timing or fuel controller wired in that runs off MAP. No label on it. It's a lil black box. I'll take some pics today and hopefully someone can help identify it. I am really hoping its a PC-PRO so I can hang it from my rearview and add that to my signature. "271 to the wheels and a PC-PRO"
also, this 95M i just picked up with the M45 is on it's 3rd engine. But thats a good thing for me since the engine in it has only 6k now. Not sure the guy knew what he was doing but it's obvious it needed better engine management.
It has some sort of timing or fuel controller wired in that runs off MAP. No label on it. It's a lil black box. I'll take some pics today and hopefully someone can help identify it. I am really hoping its a PC-PRO so I can hang it from my rearview and add that to my signature. "271 to the wheels and a PC-PRO"
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01-27-2008, 11:45 AM
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I just looked at mnet for that jmann guy. I have missed his story 
He went through quite a bit - it took 3 posts to fit all of it:
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.p...4&postcount=49
He went through quite a bit - it took 3 posts to fit all of it:http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.p...4&postcount=49
Originally Posted by jmann
Tom I have been trying to be Polite until now. You know I have seen FM right here on this site admit there has been issues with their products of the past at times. They are not perfect either and have made some people mad. You on the other hand have never admitted to any problems being caused by your product.
To begin with if I knew then what I know now I would have had you take the SC back off, 13 psi is not a safe psi for a 01 to 05 car stock with no knock controll other then the factory ecu. I distinctly remember asking you at the time your mechanic installed it in Phoenix about that much psi since you had told me it would be around 10 1/2 max and your answer was "WELL I JUST GUESS YOUR SC HAS REALLY GOOD CLEARANCES FROM THE FACTORY". Lets get some facts straight. The first motor had one valve that hung open for a few seconds on nbr. 4 cyl. when we did the leak down test and then shut, all the others were fine, and the compression was fine and nice and even across the cylinders. WE ALL AGREED to put a can of Rislone in the motor for the trip to Ark., which we did to help free up the valve, which was not that bad to begin with since the car made 187 hp on the dyno and you were expecting around mid 190's. I am sure that the 1200 mile trip freed the valve up since the car had quit popping the little bit it had been through the exhaust at the dyno. Its not like I have no experience at this game, I have had 12 corvettes that I have raced several of and I have raced shifter carts and legend cars and won quite a bit of my races if I do say so myself. I admit I didn't know alot about SC in a Miata, what with ECU's and all but I didn't just fall off a turnip wagon either. You knew full well I was planning on tracking the car and with that much psi being put out, there is no way I was going to survive. I take full responablity for losing the first engine, I should have known more, mainly that 13 psi is to much for a 02 engine especially running a stock radiator, no oil cooler although it was only in the 50's that day on the track and by the way I only got to run one 25 min session on the track before cooking and braking the pistons fron predetonation which with a high flow midpipe and muffler you well never hear running all out on the track. Running that much psi on that year of car requires more then just bolting on your coldside sc, and E-COOL, you are running so very much on the edge that it needs more controls then the factory ecu can do, like a J&S knock controller, wide band A/F, big rad.at the minumin and an oil cooler would be next with full gauges. That was the other thing, the cars stock gauges are not linear and you really need aftermarket gauges including oil temp. The car was pinging on the dyno in arz. and you blamed it on that valve sticking, when it was just making to much boost and the charge not being cooled enough withE-COOL. I take full responsibility for that engine and you did tell me to get a big radiator before tracking the car, although that was not the problem as we well see later, but it did not help.
I drove the car back from Oklahoma and made it all the way home with 2 pistons that had upper ring glands broken, figured I would get as close to Wash. as I could and then have it flatbedded home, well that little motor took me all the way, by just not running it over about 65-70. I left it with the miata mech. for our club up here, and oh by the way he had another 97 sitting out front that had guess what, you well never guess in a million years, yep a COLDSIDE' WITH E-COOL with guess what? a cooked motor, this is the gods truth. Now as for the second engine which was purchased from FM just because they had it and were the closest with an engine I could find. It had 49,000 miles on it and had come out of a car they knew personally the owner and it had always been stock and well maintained.The compression was even and very good , no problems with the leak down test. I had the head pulled to check for carbon and to check the valves AND it made it easier to bolt the coldside sc on the head and install as a unit, so he was killing 2 birds with one stone. The motor was spotless inside, it had been taken very good care of from the looks and the compression test and leak down test done at FM. Now if you can't look at pistons and tell if they are burned on top OH WAIT I FORGOT YOU DON'T DO YOUR OWN WORK, you have a mechanic named Mike do it, the same one who you had put my sc kit on, maybe he is no better then my stupid mechanic and screwed something up on the istall. Anyway my mechanic did buy a aftermarket head gasket, it was supposed to be one for FI applications. I DID HAVE A 55 mm Koyo rad. istalled. A week later it did blow a head gskt, I called FM to see what they reccomended since they have been doing this FI thing since 90 and was told to use a stock gskt by Jeremey that they were the best and they had never had any problems with them. The gskt was replaced and the motor ran fine for the next 2,700 miles and I kept checking for knock with an amplifier I have for setting the beat on clocks [ I am a clockmaker} You clip the alligator clip on the clock and it amplifies the sound and I was clipping it on the engine, running the wire through the back of the hood and putting the little 2"x2" amp in the pass seat. Had no ping issues. Oh by the way I guess running a engine with a slightly leaking head gasket home one evening about 20 miles is going to ruin an engine, if you were a mechanic you might know the answer to that as the engine was looked at and everything was fine, even the piston tops were in perfect shape and clean, no sigh of detonation and like I said above the motor ran for another 2,700 miles for a little over 3,200 total.
To begin with if I knew then what I know now I would have had you take the SC back off, 13 psi is not a safe psi for a 01 to 05 car stock with no knock controll other then the factory ecu. I distinctly remember asking you at the time your mechanic installed it in Phoenix about that much psi since you had told me it would be around 10 1/2 max and your answer was "WELL I JUST GUESS YOUR SC HAS REALLY GOOD CLEARANCES FROM THE FACTORY". Lets get some facts straight. The first motor had one valve that hung open for a few seconds on nbr. 4 cyl. when we did the leak down test and then shut, all the others were fine, and the compression was fine and nice and even across the cylinders. WE ALL AGREED to put a can of Rislone in the motor for the trip to Ark., which we did to help free up the valve, which was not that bad to begin with since the car made 187 hp on the dyno and you were expecting around mid 190's. I am sure that the 1200 mile trip freed the valve up since the car had quit popping the little bit it had been through the exhaust at the dyno. Its not like I have no experience at this game, I have had 12 corvettes that I have raced several of and I have raced shifter carts and legend cars and won quite a bit of my races if I do say so myself. I admit I didn't know alot about SC in a Miata, what with ECU's and all but I didn't just fall off a turnip wagon either. You knew full well I was planning on tracking the car and with that much psi being put out, there is no way I was going to survive. I take full responablity for losing the first engine, I should have known more, mainly that 13 psi is to much for a 02 engine especially running a stock radiator, no oil cooler although it was only in the 50's that day on the track and by the way I only got to run one 25 min session on the track before cooking and braking the pistons fron predetonation which with a high flow midpipe and muffler you well never hear running all out on the track. Running that much psi on that year of car requires more then just bolting on your coldside sc, and E-COOL, you are running so very much on the edge that it needs more controls then the factory ecu can do, like a J&S knock controller, wide band A/F, big rad.at the minumin and an oil cooler would be next with full gauges. That was the other thing, the cars stock gauges are not linear and you really need aftermarket gauges including oil temp. The car was pinging on the dyno in arz. and you blamed it on that valve sticking, when it was just making to much boost and the charge not being cooled enough withE-COOL. I take full responsibility for that engine and you did tell me to get a big radiator before tracking the car, although that was not the problem as we well see later, but it did not help.
I drove the car back from Oklahoma and made it all the way home with 2 pistons that had upper ring glands broken, figured I would get as close to Wash. as I could and then have it flatbedded home, well that little motor took me all the way, by just not running it over about 65-70. I left it with the miata mech. for our club up here, and oh by the way he had another 97 sitting out front that had guess what, you well never guess in a million years, yep a COLDSIDE' WITH E-COOL with guess what? a cooked motor, this is the gods truth. Now as for the second engine which was purchased from FM just because they had it and were the closest with an engine I could find. It had 49,000 miles on it and had come out of a car they knew personally the owner and it had always been stock and well maintained.The compression was even and very good , no problems with the leak down test. I had the head pulled to check for carbon and to check the valves AND it made it easier to bolt the coldside sc on the head and install as a unit, so he was killing 2 birds with one stone. The motor was spotless inside, it had been taken very good care of from the looks and the compression test and leak down test done at FM. Now if you can't look at pistons and tell if they are burned on top OH WAIT I FORGOT YOU DON'T DO YOUR OWN WORK, you have a mechanic named Mike do it, the same one who you had put my sc kit on, maybe he is no better then my stupid mechanic and screwed something up on the istall. Anyway my mechanic did buy a aftermarket head gasket, it was supposed to be one for FI applications. I DID HAVE A 55 mm Koyo rad. istalled. A week later it did blow a head gskt, I called FM to see what they reccomended since they have been doing this FI thing since 90 and was told to use a stock gskt by Jeremey that they were the best and they had never had any problems with them. The gskt was replaced and the motor ran fine for the next 2,700 miles and I kept checking for knock with an amplifier I have for setting the beat on clocks [ I am a clockmaker} You clip the alligator clip on the clock and it amplifies the sound and I was clipping it on the engine, running the wire through the back of the hood and putting the little 2"x2" amp in the pass seat. Had no ping issues. Oh by the way I guess running a engine with a slightly leaking head gasket home one evening about 20 miles is going to ruin an engine, if you were a mechanic you might know the answer to that as the engine was looked at and everything was fine, even the piston tops were in perfect shape and clean, no sigh of detonation and like I said above the motor ran for another 2,700 miles for a little over 3,200 total.
Last edited by j_man; 01-27-2008 at 12:04 PM.
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01-27-2008, 12:05 PM
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http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.p...6&postcount=50
Now as for the changing of the pulleys. If your memory was correct you would remember I called you up after getting the car back home from Oklahoma and asked about the high psi again and was pretty much told the samething about me having a really well built sc. I asked you if you still had the 100mm crank pulley on your shelf which you had 1 left from your days with BRP and DID NOT use anymore. Your STOCK!!!!! pulley with the kit was the 105mm. I had learned more by this time, thanks mainly to post on this sight and thought I needed to lower the psi and wanted to see what the 100mm pulley would give for boost, I knew it would be less, just didn't know how much. You didn't think it was needed, I guess its more important to say 195 hp instead of 185, as you don't even make the 100mm anymore. The car ran fine for another 2,700 miles, and a total of 3,200 miles and everything was fine making 10 1/2 psi, until one day I decided to put the STOCK WITH THE KIT 105mm pulley back on thinking that maybe there really was something wrong with the first motor and went out without the amplifier in the car and cooked the motor in the evening at about 49 deg. outside temp running it hard up through the gears on a back road. MY BAD, MY STUPID, MY SHORT MEMORY [ course I'm 63 so I have an excuse], I should have put the amp in the car!, but I was thinking maybe there was really something wrong with the first motor and that I would try the stock pulley again for a few extra horses. Now what really pi--es me off is, if the above was not enough you are saying I have a wide band that was reading lean, WHAT A COMPLETE BUNCH OF YOU KNOW WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You know very well I have a narrow band [bad mistake}, your mechanic installed it along with the boost gauge on the a pillar. The dyno did not say I was lean, don't forget I have the print out and to sit there and say I said what you say I said in that last paragraph is absolutely unbeleivable. I have the receipts from Goodwin where I bought the gauges and I well check the invoice from mike to see if it says what A/F gauge was installed. I just can't beleive that last paragraph!!!!!!!!!!!! Imbelishing the facts in your favor is one thing but to just out and out lie is something else!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have seen FM admit to past problems with some of their systems, and like I said above have never seen you admit to any issues with yours, it is always something wrong with something else. There is a big leearning curve to FI on a miata still and your system is not without issues either. If you want to run to the grocery store and go up through a couple of gears e-cool is ok, but on a 01 up car running on the tracdk or hard on the back roads it is not enough by itself as stated before. I would have water injection next time with the other enhancements mentioned above. I am going with the FM11 w/hydra cause I am only planning on running the system at 10 psi and well be running well within the systems ability as far as cooling the charge and still making 40 more whp then I was with your system and well have the Hydra ECU which I hope is as great as everyone has said it is so far. I would rather be running with a safety margin instead of on the top edge of the systems abilities. I really don't care what you think about FM, I am the one who has made the choice, BUT when you start making statements that are totally false and full of false facts to suit your memory you have went to far. Fm has the right as do you to voice their opinion of e-cool or any other part of your system as do you of theirs or anyone elses when a particular question is asked about a system. How can the persons question be answered if not by what people have opinions of it. I am under no illustions that I well have some issues to sort out with the Hydra as it is fairly new tech, but I believe saving my engine if something goes wrong well not be one of them with the built in safe gaurds. I well not hesitate to make my opinions known in the future of the coldside system since you opened the doors. John
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.p...2&postcount=53
Tom As normal you talk about the things that are probably of benefit to making your product look okay and my car look bad. You said nothing about all the miss information you posted above and outright LIES!!!! . Are you still standing be your statement that my wideband A/F gauge was reading lean????? when I don't even have one nor have I ever. My car has a narrow band in it right now and has always had. I can't see anyone replacing a wideband with a narrowband. My car is at Bob Bundys house as we speak and we are installing the FM11 kit ourselves. I put the last motor in myself with Bobs help and a really good hoist he has in his garage. I have started to do all my own work since that is what I used to do, but I figured that since I had a few bucks at my age I didn't have to anymore . Well I have decided that if I want to really know whats going on with my car I need to get back in it myself like the old days. I have tuned all my cars and carts in the past on and off the track, believe me when I say I do know a little about motors, not everything for sure, but a little.
But I degress, In my post above I was mainly pointing out the miss statements by you about what pulleys were used and what was told to me AND the outright lies about a lean reading wideband A/F gauge. You can ask Bob Bundy what gauge I have in the car?, You can ask Bob Smyers, my buddy in Ark. what gauge was in and still is when I showed up in Ark.. I hope Keith, Bill, And Jerenmy will post as to what gauge is in the car as I stopped in down there when my wife and I were on our vac to the canyonlands in Utah a few weeks ago and stopped in to meet the guys. I told them that I wanted to get a wideband gauge with my FM11 kit which I had ordered about a week earlier and was on the waiting list and they assured me that the built in wide band in the Hydra was all that I needed and to keep my narrow band in the car if I wanted something to look at. Well I think I am going to take it out and install a EGT gauge in its place and then I well have a oil pres, water temp, oil temp, eng gas temp, and boost gauges for when the car is tracked.
I used to have alot of respect for you, and that is why I never posted what system I had when I was trying to find out what caused the 15 psi reading I saw when the second engine let go after 3200 miles one evening, but when I started getting some opinions you jumped in and started getting all huffy with anyione who tried to give an opinion and started bringing up their past problems, instead of just voicing your opinion of your product. Although I didn't agree with everything you said and claimed later as I was getting more educated on FI, I thought you were sincere, but now after the post above with all the miss facts, which at this point I still believe are just miss stated facts, but the outright lies about a lean reading wideband A/F gauge I have no respect for anything you say from now on or your product anymore.
And YES we had race gas in the car and a sticking exhaust valve if anything well let more flow through the engine and besides the slight popping out the exhaust that we evidenced in Pheonix was gone, AND as stated before I take full blame for THAT motor, and NO there were no bent valves, which is kinda hard to do in a no interference engine. John
poor guy ...
Now as for the changing of the pulleys. If your memory was correct you would remember I called you up after getting the car back home from Oklahoma and asked about the high psi again and was pretty much told the samething about me having a really well built sc. I asked you if you still had the 100mm crank pulley on your shelf which you had 1 left from your days with BRP and DID NOT use anymore. Your STOCK!!!!! pulley with the kit was the 105mm. I had learned more by this time, thanks mainly to post on this sight and thought I needed to lower the psi and wanted to see what the 100mm pulley would give for boost, I knew it would be less, just didn't know how much. You didn't think it was needed, I guess its more important to say 195 hp instead of 185, as you don't even make the 100mm anymore. The car ran fine for another 2,700 miles, and a total of 3,200 miles and everything was fine making 10 1/2 psi, until one day I decided to put the STOCK WITH THE KIT 105mm pulley back on thinking that maybe there really was something wrong with the first motor and went out without the amplifier in the car and cooked the motor in the evening at about 49 deg. outside temp running it hard up through the gears on a back road. MY BAD, MY STUPID, MY SHORT MEMORY [ course I'm 63 so I have an excuse], I should have put the amp in the car!, but I was thinking maybe there was really something wrong with the first motor and that I would try the stock pulley again for a few extra horses. Now what really pi--es me off is, if the above was not enough you are saying I have a wide band that was reading lean, WHAT A COMPLETE BUNCH OF YOU KNOW WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You know very well I have a narrow band [bad mistake}, your mechanic installed it along with the boost gauge on the a pillar. The dyno did not say I was lean, don't forget I have the print out and to sit there and say I said what you say I said in that last paragraph is absolutely unbeleivable. I have the receipts from Goodwin where I bought the gauges and I well check the invoice from mike to see if it says what A/F gauge was installed. I just can't beleive that last paragraph!!!!!!!!!!!! Imbelishing the facts in your favor is one thing but to just out and out lie is something else!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have seen FM admit to past problems with some of their systems, and like I said above have never seen you admit to any issues with yours, it is always something wrong with something else. There is a big leearning curve to FI on a miata still and your system is not without issues either. If you want to run to the grocery store and go up through a couple of gears e-cool is ok, but on a 01 up car running on the tracdk or hard on the back roads it is not enough by itself as stated before. I would have water injection next time with the other enhancements mentioned above. I am going with the FM11 w/hydra cause I am only planning on running the system at 10 psi and well be running well within the systems ability as far as cooling the charge and still making 40 more whp then I was with your system and well have the Hydra ECU which I hope is as great as everyone has said it is so far. I would rather be running with a safety margin instead of on the top edge of the systems abilities. I really don't care what you think about FM, I am the one who has made the choice, BUT when you start making statements that are totally false and full of false facts to suit your memory you have went to far. Fm has the right as do you to voice their opinion of e-cool or any other part of your system as do you of theirs or anyone elses when a particular question is asked about a system. How can the persons question be answered if not by what people have opinions of it. I am under no illustions that I well have some issues to sort out with the Hydra as it is fairly new tech, but I believe saving my engine if something goes wrong well not be one of them with the built in safe gaurds. I well not hesitate to make my opinions known in the future of the coldside system since you opened the doors. John
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.p...2&postcount=53
Originally Posted by jmann
Tom As normal you talk about the things that are probably of benefit to making your product look okay and my car look bad. You said nothing about all the miss information you posted above and outright LIES!!!! . Are you still standing be your statement that my wideband A/F gauge was reading lean????? when I don't even have one nor have I ever. My car has a narrow band in it right now and has always had. I can't see anyone replacing a wideband with a narrowband. My car is at Bob Bundys house as we speak and we are installing the FM11 kit ourselves. I put the last motor in myself with Bobs help and a really good hoist he has in his garage. I have started to do all my own work since that is what I used to do, but I figured that since I had a few bucks at my age I didn't have to anymore . Well I have decided that if I want to really know whats going on with my car I need to get back in it myself like the old days. I have tuned all my cars and carts in the past on and off the track, believe me when I say I do know a little about motors, not everything for sure, but a little.
But I degress, In my post above I was mainly pointing out the miss statements by you about what pulleys were used and what was told to me AND the outright lies about a lean reading wideband A/F gauge. You can ask Bob Bundy what gauge I have in the car?, You can ask Bob Smyers, my buddy in Ark. what gauge was in and still is when I showed up in Ark.. I hope Keith, Bill, And Jerenmy will post as to what gauge is in the car as I stopped in down there when my wife and I were on our vac to the canyonlands in Utah a few weeks ago and stopped in to meet the guys. I told them that I wanted to get a wideband gauge with my FM11 kit which I had ordered about a week earlier and was on the waiting list and they assured me that the built in wide band in the Hydra was all that I needed and to keep my narrow band in the car if I wanted something to look at. Well I think I am going to take it out and install a EGT gauge in its place and then I well have a oil pres, water temp, oil temp, eng gas temp, and boost gauges for when the car is tracked.
I used to have alot of respect for you, and that is why I never posted what system I had when I was trying to find out what caused the 15 psi reading I saw when the second engine let go after 3200 miles one evening, but when I started getting some opinions you jumped in and started getting all huffy with anyione who tried to give an opinion and started bringing up their past problems, instead of just voicing your opinion of your product. Although I didn't agree with everything you said and claimed later as I was getting more educated on FI, I thought you were sincere, but now after the post above with all the miss facts, which at this point I still believe are just miss stated facts, but the outright lies about a lean reading wideband A/F gauge I have no respect for anything you say from now on or your product anymore.
And YES we had race gas in the car and a sticking exhaust valve if anything well let more flow through the engine and besides the slight popping out the exhaust that we evidenced in Pheonix was gone, AND as stated before I take full blame for THAT motor, and NO there were no bent valves, which is kinda hard to do in a no interference engine. John
poor guy ...
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01-29-2008, 12:35 PM
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Maybe talk to Jeremy at Flyin' Miata. IIRC he had a bunch of time on their loading dyno checking what the NB ECUs do with the timing at different loads and rpms ...
This is one of his posts I remember about it - mentioning 3 timing zones:
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread...28#post2536028
Also take a look at the OEM ignition maps (hacked from the stock ECU). IIRC there you can see that in the high load 1/3 of the table the ignition numbers are the same per rpm (regardless that the ECU table allows better resolution) - which kindof confirms what Jeremy was saying. Also IIRC it was mentioned that when the params go beyond the table range, the ECU uses the last value in the row or line (by people who put in ROMs with repogrammed rev limiter numbers):
This is one of his posts I remember about it - mentioning 3 timing zones:
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread...28#post2536028
Also take a look at the OEM ignition maps (hacked from the stock ECU). IIRC there you can see that in the high load 1/3 of the table the ignition numbers are the same per rpm (regardless that the ECU table allows better resolution) - which kindof confirms what Jeremy was saying. Also IIRC it was mentioned that when the params go beyond the table range, the ECU uses the last value in the row or line (by people who put in ROMs with repogrammed rev limiter numbers):
Last edited by j_man; 01-29-2008 at 12:49 PM.
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