New car decision: NA Miata or AP1 S2000. Discuss.
 

Looking at buying another daily driver as my '01 Audi A4 1.8T Quattro has just ticked over 200K and has been a never ending pain in my ass to repair over the past year or so... Wanting something reliable that is fun to drive and could be taken out auto-xing on occasion. Either of the cars in question would be only receiving basic bolt-ons as reliability is my number one concern this time around. For the Miata, I would be looking to spend $3-5K on the car which will put me in the late-1.6L or early-1.8L range for a decent specimen. I can pay for this outright and wouldn't be making payments on anything. For the AP1 S2000, I would be looking to spend $10-12K for it. This would involve taking out a loan for it. Not a big fan of making payments on things, but I could be convinced with enough reasons to own this car versus the other. So there you have it, discuss which you would choose and why keeping in mind that cost to maintain and reliability are very important.

Disclaimer: I know this is a Miata forum, but I would love some honest answers on this as car nuts.

For a DD?

Sports cars make poor DD's

Yes, this would be for a DD... Either would be WAY better than my A4. Trust me...

If those are the two only options, NA for cash. No loans on depreciating assets.

I'd opt for whatever is newer and nicer.

m3.

My sentiments exactly... But in this case, I am weighing that versus not doing so.

The main reason I am between these two are that I had driven my NA for quite a few years before tearing it down to build a track car. I know how to keep them running even when something is messed up and know how to fix it when it doesn't run. For the S2000, I have always wanted one since they came out as it was a way to get into a nice Honda platform without buying an NSX and crying everytime the timing belt needs to be changed due to repair costs.

An AP1 makes a great daily. It's like a Miata that gets right after 6k in stead of falling on it's face. The only catch is that (good) parts for them are insane. People still think they're NSXs, or something.

Personally, I'd spend that 10-12k on a $3000 (really nice) Miata, a $3000 Chevy pickup truck to drag your stupid Audi around, and 4-6k in bad ass Miata parts.

Completely disagree.
S2k's are terrible dailys. No power or torque down low, not that great of gas mileage, and not much roomier (if AT ALL) than a miata. I was a huge fanboi and wanted one for ever til my friend got one and let me drive it a few weeks. I was severely disappointed. He was as well since he traded it in for an STi only 2 months later.

if you want a daily I'd get a miata.

Now if you said you wanted a great track car or weekend canyon carver, I'd say get the S2k

Less, in fact.

A friend of mine has an S2K, and I clearly remember the first time I got into it, being amazed at how much more cramped it felt than an NA.


To chpmnsws6's point, I see nothing wrong with a sports car as a DD. I have owned nothing but Miatas and motorcycles since 2004, and I don't consider this to be a problem. With a bit of ingenuity, I have used the Miata to transport a water heater, a lawnmover, a small sofa, a mattress set, lots of pipe and lumber, an engine hoist (unassembled), and 6' wide sections of countertop.

Now granted, I don't have kids, and that may be a consideration for some. But if the car is just for you, I see no problems here.

Unless you weigh 300 lbs, an S2000 has plenty of room. And mine moved itself JUST fine, and got better mileage than any Miata I've ever owned.

It still wouldn't make a better Daily than a Miata with 6k in go-fast. It kicks the guts right out of a stock Miata, though. I'd be MISERABLE in a stock Miata every day.

The one we drove got a consistent 20-22mpg city while my miata had no problem getting 30's while n/a and 26-28 while boosted.

I'm 5'9 and 200lbs, and every single person that drove both cars back to back will tell you the S feels more cramped. This is not just MY opinion. It has a much wider center console and MUCH larger transmission tunnel robbing you of a ton of interior width. The footwells are damn near impossible to move your feet side to side in. All of this makes it a lot less comfy in daily driving.

Track and spirited driving is a different story.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

Maybe split the difference and get an NB. You still know how to work on it, still in the Sub-$5K range, looks a bit more modern and as far as I'm concerned, a better DD. I've had four NA's and 2 NB's and prefer the NB.

When you say "daily driver" do you mean "only car?" I own a non-turbo NA and an AP1 S2000. The Miata has been my only car at times and I daily drove it for a while. The S2000 is currently my daily driver.

I am glad I bought it and got to have the longer-term experience with it, but I don't see me keeping it forever. It's much "nicer" inside - though I can't say it's significantly more or less cramped than a Miata. It's much faster than a Miata but it doesn't always feel faster unless you are wringing it out past 6k RPM all the time. That's not an issue on-track, but can be a bother around town.

The fact that extracting more significant horsepower is pretty expensive has helped deter me from spending money on modifications which has helped prevent the "my daily driver has become another project car" scenario.

I would not say it is any way significantly more practical than a Miata for commuting in terms of space or fuel economy. I get lousy fuel economy for the power with a really short range. I am lucky to get 200 miles per tank which is ~18-19 MPG. I automatically discount fuel economy in any car I drive, but I saw that kind of MPG in my Evo8 and C5 Corvette which were both significantly faster.

I DD my turbo Miata. Love it. 100% reliable so far.

Of course, I have other vehicles at my disposal for when I need to haul a water heater (LOL).

I think the fact that you've already owned and wrenched on a Miata swings it. Anybody who is even halfway handy with a wrench can keep a Miata on the road.

By daily driver I mean it will be the car I drive the most to and from work. I plan to keep my Audi A4 and work on repairing some of the things on it a little at a time instead of with one lump sum. Just weighing the pros and cons of these two options currently.

For the record, I\'m 5\'7\", 150 lbs, and have no kids or plans to have them anytime soon. So space is not a concern here...

I DD my miata everyday this summer since March... parked it this Oct once the rain started coming. Doesn't mena I dont have a slightly more comfortable DDer, which I plan to upgrade one of these days.

Brain, that is why I am keeping my Audi A4 around for when we get ice down here as we all know SC never gets more than 6 in of snow at one time... Ice is a different story however.

By daily driver I mean it will be the car I drive the most to and from work. I plan to keep my Audi A4 and work on repairing some of the things on it a little at a time instead of with one lump sum. Just weighing the pros and cons of these two options currently.

+1 for the Miata. I agree with the s2000 feeling way more cramped. Its nice to drive once in a while but I would hate to daily it.

Also, lolnotorque, which sucks for a DD. I remember my megasquirted N/A Miata had better low end torque around town than the S2k. At least it felt like it.

I would get a Miata for a DD since the hardtop for an S2000 is like $2500.
Hardtop + AC + power windows/mirrors + headrest speakers = winner DD.

Can you describe your typical commute? For example: five miles of pot-holed city streets with a stop-light every 100'; 15 miles of quiet, two-lane black-top through twisty foothills; 40 miles of flat, straight freeway; etc.

If your keeping the A4, I agree with the Miata. Its cheap and a basic no frills car that's simple to work on. Did I mention it was also cheap?

I'd hate to drive a Miata as a year round DD. Last years 14 inches of snow basically covered the car in a snow drift before I was able to get it inside.

How many miles do you drive a week? At 100-150 miles, it made little sense for me not to get something larger and 4wd for the winter..... Hence the soccer mom Cherokee.

i'd go with the s2k

Scrappy, my daily work commute is .75 miles on a highway. Then 7 miles on the interstate. Work is directly off the interstate. Not bad at all, but too far to bicycle as I cannot get on the interstate with one...



With travelling now, I might put 150-200 miles a week as I do drive the interstate 25ish miles to another city to hang out a few days a week.

I vote miata.

On a side note, when I move back up to Chicago I'm buying a cheap 1.6 and winterizing it.

Scrappy, my daily work commute is .75 miles on a highway. Then 7 miles on the interstate. Work is directly off the interstate. Not bad at all, but too far to bicycle as I can't get on the interstate with one...

Hmm... My first instinct was to overweight the S2000 because driving a stock-powered Miata at proper interstate speeds is terrible. The Honda is just as loud and buzzy, but at least has decent on-ramping and passing power.

On the other hand, with such a relatively short commute, it might not be long enough to make you want to commit seppuku.


After giving it more thought, is the answer to buy Brain's well-sorted (?) turbo'd car at a significant discount to the time and parts required to replicate it?

I vote NB miata, my Mazdaspeed Miata and Jeep Cherokee have been my favorite DD's in my 15 year driving career. You can pick up a MSM for AP1 money. I have an AP2 fyi. Sports cars that I have owned ranked with DD status, best first.

04 MSM LS
12 Mustang BOSS 302
92 3000GT VR4
06 AP2 S2K
10 Hyundai Genesis Coupe Track
96 300zx
74 TR6
95 Miata
90 Miata
72 Spitfire

A MSM with GC coilovers, intake, and 15x8 wheels is my favorite DD yet. The leather seats of the LS are comfy and easy to slide in and out. The thicker tires of the 15" wheels combined with slightly stiffer rates rode like a Caddy. The car was fairly quick but very quite. I had a titanium car with matching hardtop and grey wheels, cops never even glanced in my direction. It was comfy and I could be a hooligan and never get noticed. I did a couple of 1300 mile rode trips in that car with no problems with comfort.

I dd'd my miata for damn, 7 or 8 years. shit i've had this car for a long time.

yeah. um just get a maita and be done. debt sucks

oh oh oh oh

dude just pick up a high mileage MSM. I've seen a few for 7k recently. MSM is THE nicest miata out of the NA and NB.

That's what I do.

Sunny Day ==> Turbo Miata
Otherwise ==> G8 GT

The drought has effectively kept the G8 low mileage. Problem is that my wife is starting to like driving it.

To be fair, I almost never have the passenger's seat installed in the car. It mostly sits in the garage, but with it out and the top down, it's truly amazing what you can haul around in a Miata.

The best part, honestly, is buying something large and heavy and having a store employee assist you in carrying it out to the car. I remember clearly the look on the guy's face at Harbor Freight when we rolled the dolly containing both an engine stand and a hydraulic engine hoist out to the Miata. It required one nylon ratcheting-strap to secure the load (I always have a few in the trunk) but everything fit nicely.

I can't find the pictures of the cherry picker dropping the green car's built 1.9 in the empty passenger side of the same car at the machine shop for transport home. That's how men do it.

There are a few reasons I still drive the shitter, $1300 Miata known as "trash car". When you consider cost I'd the car, tires, brakes, insurance, lack of theft, fuel economy, salvage yard selection, electronic simplicity, and unbearable reliability it makes sense.

Split the difference and get a cheap MSM.

Edit:
E30 325is or ix is the answer, it is always the answer.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3599/...0f1b2d6d49.jpg

Imagine that! The Miata forum votes for the Miata! :giggle:

The best daily I have ever had (still have) is a BMW. Perfect combination between fun and comfort. But I absolutly agree with you: No debt and reliability is clearly more important then fun in a DD, assuming one have a fun car for the weekend or for the track. Money and wrenching time should go to the fun car, not the DD.

Right now the only running car I have is the Audi (which is pissing coolant everywhere right now). My other Miata is in pieces in the process of being built, but the Audi keeps stealing all the funding to keep it going. Had the timing belt snap awhile back and destroy all of the cylinder head components. Wasn't cheap to fix, so I had to cancel a few orders of parts for the Miata and haven't been able to gain traction again on it. Thus the search for a new car to drive...

BTW, this is what happens when the timing belt goes BOOM on an A4 (valve was cleaned via sonication in acetone/methanol and then in a dilute nitric acid solution):
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1319713409

Hold up; help me understand. So you already have...

• A moneypit Audi A4 for a "bad weather" car?
• A moneypit project Miata (project cars are almost always moneypits by definition)?

And now you are looking to buy a third vehicle because the first two are too undriveable most of the time?

Been there, done that, got the debt to prove it. Dump that fucking Audi ASAP and get something that will get you to point B. I think that within the 18 months I had my $44k Audi it left me stranded about 10 times and I'm not exagerating. Coil packs on the VWs left me stranded at least three times and random electronic failure left me stranded more times that I can remember. By the end of that deal I had serious concerns every day over the 18-mile commute to work...and those were reasonable concerns considering the number of times all VWs I owned were towed.

Scrappy, the Audi needs some work to be reliable, but can handle short commutes and such in inclement weather. I have driven a light RWD on snow/ice with my old Miata and will NEVER do so again. The track build Miata will never see the street ever again, so that takes it out of the running for another car. So yes, I am looking for a third car that I can just drive and not worry about it dying on me while driving out-of-state. The third car will basically stay stock with MAYBE some minor bolt-ons. Don't need another project to dump money into...

hustler, I feel your pain on the VAG problems. I have had 2 coilpacks go bad on me in the past. I now drive around with 4 spares in my trunk at all times just incase. Also carry a few other things everywhere I go just incase as well. They are awesome when they are running properly and nothing is wrong. However, when something IS wrong it usually has a snowball effect. Mine currently has no-ABS (ABS Module is shot, known problem with my chassis) and the CEL is on (CAS, which was replaced and the CEL came back on after driving the car and stopping for gas). So I feel your pain on those accounts.

Yes, keep telling yourself the Audi can be reliable. If you totally swap every electric switch and sensor with something from Autozone/Duralast, you can get there. I basically did this with my Jetta, then it was pretty reliable until the emissions pipes and fittings started machining themselves away, the transmissions kept breaking, and the electronics in the car stopped working in general. This does not include the windows falling into the doors.

I like to give myself hope... What can I say. Haha The B5's are TERRIBLE with electronics as I know very well. Have spare fuses with me to prove this fact. Had to replace multiple relays already, etc. :(

Do yourself a favor and cut it loose, you'll have a lot more time to work on the Miata. I think you can get an old 200-2003 Outback wagon on the cheap. Those have one problem...headgaskets. Replace them with an updated Subaru headgasket and it will go foverever. Really, stop wasting your time. I realized this when my track Miata was more reliable than my daily driver VW.

German Cars != Reliable

Especially when it comes to electronics.

And the damned interference engines . . . how stupid.

My personal experience is with MB. I've heard terrible things about VW and Audi. No personal experience with BMW.

So, you want an inexpensive, reliable and practical DD for a relatively short and uninspiring commute that will let you spend mad money on your track Miata. Old Toyota? Old Honda? Old Subaru? Old Mazda3 or 6? Old GM or Ford? What about an extended cab Ford Ranger? Or if you want a guaranteed 250,000 miles, Ford F-150. The choices are endless. I don't know why you are looking at 2-seat sports cars given the criteria.

Without more info, I am going to side with hustler here. I think you deal with the sunk costs of the Audi, repair and sell or part it out, and get yourself a more reliable mode of all-weather transportation. I would think something like a WRX or 2.5 RS (that wasn't beat to death) could work as a compromise of "fun" and "functional" and still work in your budget.

I have to think the Audi will continue to divert resources from the project Miata (in terms of time and money) and you will have the upkeep and maintenance and taxes and fees, etc on an extra car.

Yup, if I was him I'd get a WRX wagon and sell the Audi. With a few bolt ons it would be fast. He could also pick up large parts for the miata or dead bodies.

I like the idea of picking up dead bodies...