Northern crew: on tops and snow...
 

So I'm probably going to be re-joining the ranks of car owners sometime before October. Will be used as a daily commuter, mostly just to get from home to the train station and back. Unless someone can provide an extremely compelling reason to the contrary, it will be a Miata.

I have never owned a convertible in a place where it snows before. My intuitive reaction, therefore, was that a PRHT NC would be of significant benefit over an NA or NB. I'm finding, however, that PRHT cars with manual transmissions seem to be somewhat scarce and highly valued.

All else being equal, I'd actually prefer an NB over an NC, because of reasons. But the thought of having to deal with a non-retractable hardtop stuck over my head all winter, even on days when it isn't snowing, is abhorrent to me.

So I'd like some practical advice from people who DD Miatas in snowy climes. Is a PRHT really the godsend that Mazda's marketing department make it out to be? Is it worth paying an extra $5-10k for, and then suffering the ongoing burden of having an NC instead of the car I really want? Can NB ragtops be raised and lowered in freezing-but-not-snowy weather without being destroyed (and does installing an aftermarket canvas top help)?

Semi-related:

I posted a nice NB for sale in the random pics thread this morning. Hard and soft tops included.

Related:

Canvas with glass window and defrost should be perfect for what you are doing.

I have an nb with a hardtop and it is sort of a pain having to remove it and find a good, safe place to keep it when it's not in use. If you have a pair, it's removable and install-able solo, just takes some practice at first. I would say mine weighs roughly 40lbs. I find that if you have a garage you can install some strong hooks into the ceiling cross members and hang the top from it's rear mounts. It saves about 3ft of space on the floor and is up and out of the way of danger.

I don't really see a reason why you would need to remove it in the winter though?

FWIW, the NB looks so much better with a matching HT and a tinted rear window. :party:

I saw that. Considering it, though I don't actually need the car just yet, and would actually prefer to wait a few months until I have a place to park it.

The color of that car is also detestable. I never thought I'd let a thing like that influence a car-buying decision, but I don't think I can be seen driving a metallic powder-blue Miata.



I have owned a hardtop in the past, with a ceiling-mounted hoist, and so I'm familiar with the procedure for getting it on and off. That's not a problem. The issue is more one of "Ok, it's a sunny day, so I'd like to not have the hard top on, yet I'm afraid that if I raise the soft-top once I get to my destination, it will crack, or be so stiff that I can't get it latched."

This was a problem with my past NAs (with vinyl tops) during the frigid coastal-southern-California winters. When the temperature got down into the 50s, it became extremely difficult to get the top fully forward and latched. I'm concerned that it will be impossible when it's 10°F.

If the consensus opinion is that the soft-top is not really operable in freezing weather, then that would tend to push me towards an NC. If the consensus opinion is that canvas / cloth soft-tops can be operated when it's sub-freezing, then I'll focus on an '01-05 NB.


Because it only snows on certain days, and the rest of the time it's clear, top-down weather.

When I did own a hardtop, I almost never, ever used it, mostly because it took away the ability to spontaneously say "What a nice day it's become. I think I'll put the top down."

I dailyed my old NA in northern Indiana this winter when it was -30 and there was several feet of snow on the ground, and my ragtop stayed intact. I agree with what sixshooter said about the glass window being a better option though. For the love of God, get some good snow tires unless you want to drive sideways all winter. I've driven in the snow for a lot of years now, and it was a challenge keeping that thing straight in the snow with my summer tires.

Did you commonly raise and lower the top in this weather, or did it stay up all the time? What material was it made from?



Since I am looking only at NBs, it is a foregone conclusion that the rear window will be glass, and heated.



Yes, I have actually driven in snow before. Lived in Cinci for five years, with an Integra. On that car, I had separate summer and winter wheels, with Blizzaks on the winter steelies. It goes without saying that the same will apply here.

For a daily driver it would be nice to have the option if weather permits. Mine is strickly a "nice day out joy rider ". I don't even have a vert top anymore, it was torn when I bought it and just yanked it for weight savings. The weather channel app has become my bff.

I definitely agree about the tires, I attempted to move mine out of the garage last winter to free up some space for another project and because I have rivals it got stuck it a half inch of snow. Ridiculous! :mad:

Edit: even with snow tires, its such a light car and there's no weight over the rear axle. Add to the fact that most nb's have a 4.3 diff and it makes for a very spin happy mazduh.

I know I live in Florida so it never drops to 10 degrees but I have often lowered and closed the cloth soft top on my MSM in 30-50 degree weather and I have never noticed a difference in difficulty level at those temperatures so I imagine even if it did become noticeable at lower temps it would not be enough to cause harm.

Mazda recommends that you not put the top up or down when the temps are below 40 degrees or so. When I lived in NoVA I followed that rule almost religiously. I think in a pinch the top would be fine to put up or down when cold, but I would not do it repeatedly all winter. I think it would very much accelerate the deterioration of the top. Latching either cloth or canvas top has always been a PITA for me when temps are below about 50.

Honestly for what you want I think the retractable hardtop NC would be the best choice, unless you are ok replacing the top every year or two.

The NC with Power HArdtop would be beast... but if you go with a ragtop NB, Make sure you get the glass rear window version, and the highest quality you can find. The plastic Rear window on my ragtop cracked while raising and lowering it this past winter just from the cold stiffness. ill be replacing it with a glass soft top, and putting a hard top over that. that should solve all future issues. This was my first REAL winter with the soft top, so i learned the hard way.

Cloth tops are not expensive if you do the install yourself. Or with a friend.

Find your dream NB with a ratty top and shop like a pro:
1999-2005 Miata

In that case, your opinion is invalid. Thanks for playing. :party:

Also, thanks for playing. :party:




I am familiar with Mazda's recommendation.

On the other hand, I have heard, anecdotally, that cloth tops of the sort sold by Robbins are relatively impervious to the cold, and can be operated at low temperatures. I'm hoping to find first-hand accounts which can wither support or refute this belief.


I have no problem replacing the top every year or two. From a purely economic standpoint, I'd come out well ahead buying a new Robbins canvas top for an $8k NB every year for the next decade vs. buying a $15k PRHT NC. I've replaced Miata tops before (on NAs) and they're quite easy to do.

I'd prefer to get more than a year or two out of a top, but if that's what it takes to not have to drive an NC, it's not a deal-breaker.

The biggest issue I think you would have with the cloth top would be latching it when cold. I have a cloth top on my 92 and it is a royal pita to latch when cold out even after being on the car for over a year now, and on the previous car for about a year.

Canvas top, plastic window, unsure of the brand. I didn't operate it at extremely low temps, but Inidana has a tendancy to temperature swing rapidly, so I have operated it in the low 30s and upper 20s many times. It is stiff, but I just open the door, press down on one corner and set the latch in the groove, repeat on the other side, and tighten. No rips yet. You should be fine with a quality top for at least a few years.

That's my key concern.

Until I actually did a top replacement myself, I assumed that the installer had some degree of latitude in setting the tightness of the top fabric at the time of installation. That having been said, I'm curious as to which manufacturer made the top on your '92, as I expect there to be some variance from one pattern to the next. For instance, the extremely cheap no-zip vinyl/plastic top which I put on my '90 was easier to operate after a week than the Robbins vinyl/glass top which I paid someone else to install on my '92 was after three years.

I DDed my NA in Pennsylvania and Virginia winters for several years. The first few were with the original, dry rotting vinyl top with a glass zippered window. It was never an issue for me to latch it, just a bit more effort required than in the summer though nothing worrying or unmanageable. This was in conditions where my family called me crazy for having the top down. Full strength heater FTW. The zipper that supported the glass window eventually ripped due to the window weight and its almost twenty years of use (unrelated to latching in the cold, mostly from people not supporting the windows weight as they draw the zipper across putting stress on the corners).

Then I got either a Key or Robbins (I'll try and find out) vinyl top with a glass zippered window and its even easier to latch. The way it was installed resulted in it being slightly less taught than the old one when up, so maybe this is a trait you can aim for if you buy new. Also the new top does not require unzipping to put the top down which is awesome.

Edit: I've had both running through winters for multiple years each with no noticeable wear. I didn't put them down every day but did so whenever it was acceptable outside. You do have to press it down a bit once its folded up so it lays flush with the rear shelf. Just make sure its not pinching hard anywhere back there and you should be OK.

Oh I'm well aware that most of my opinions are invalid...I'm married.:fawk:

I have done about a dozen top installs now, mostly on NA's but a few on NB's. Tops have been the cheapest ebay tops to the most expensive Robbin's tops. I have yet to see any rhyme or reason to how well any fit. Currently on my 94 I have this top and it is a bit snug, I have never had to put it up or down below 50 degrees though. I can try to figure out what type I have on my 92. It came off of my good friends 95, I think he spent the extra money to get a Robbins, but would have to verify. It is a bit hard to latch even when it is nice temp wise out.

Everyone I know that daily's a miata in the winter runs a hard top, for the heat retention factor and the fact that they'd never ever want to be top down when its -4°F out. And they do it on snow tires and drive circles around the morons in fwd cars on all seasons.

I don't see any disadvantage to running a hardtop in winter other than being bummed on a day when you really want the top down, but heat retention isn't really an issue. The heater in our cars is awesomely good.

That's the part I have difficulty understanding. All you need is ear-protection, a balaclava, and eye protection, and you're good to go.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1400526996




That, for me, is the biggest disadvantage. I realize that a lot of folks on this forum prefer to run their hard-tops year-round, and have even gone so far as to remove the soft top entirely. I'm not judging them*, but my own preference is to run topless any time doing so does not result in significant water damage to the interior.






















* = Actually, I am. You're all damned fools, and your parents met at a family reunion.

I despise driving with winter gloves on. 40°F is pretty much my low limit for driving a miata with the top down with no gloves on before my hands are too cold to be comfortable.

Meh. I commute by bicycle nearly every day already, regardless of temperature. When I lived in SoCal, I simply kept my winter motorcycle gloves in the glovebox, and wore them when it was cold. I have no problem wearing weather-appropriate attire.

I am with you Joe. I bought the miata because I wanted a convertible. Assuming that I can put the top down without cracking the rear plastic window on my NA's I will gladly drive when it's cold out with gloves on and a beanie.

I could not care less that the Miata is a convertible. If there was a coupe version, I would not even consider the ragtop. I bought it because it is a cheap alternative to the nearly non-existent British roadsters of 30-40 years ago. Yes, I run a hardtop year 'round, and the convertible frame has been removed.

Drove my open diff NB all winter with snow tires. Never once got in any trouble in the Michigan snow.

Other than that, the NB is a terrible daily driver. Cramped. Bad on gas. Not comfortable. No one sees you. Slow. I could go on.

Are you saying that the NB is a terrible daily-driver as compared to an NA / NC, or as compared to a Mercury Grand Marquis?

Because I've used NAs as my exclusive daily-driver for the past nine years*, and I don't find them to be at all objectionable. I find it difficult to believe that an NB could be significantly more cramped, worse on gas, or less comfortable than a '90. And I'm 6'2", 195 lbs.








* = Excluding the period of Sep 2013-present, during which time I owned no car at all.

I've only had the joy of daily driving an NB of the 3 generations.


You asked if it was possible and it absolutely is. In fact it did best of all in the snow of any of my cars.
All the other stuff is personal opinion.

The bottom line is that if you want an NB, a soft top doesn't make life a living hell, and a retractable hardtop isn't worth the extra coin. El fin. I'm with you in thinking that a miata should have the top down whenever feasable, and I would have been heartbroken on the first rogue days of warm weather if I'd been stuck in a hardtop.

Rust free Florida 2001 Miata for $5k:
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I was actually serious when I questioned this earlier, and was hoping for a serious reply. Do you find the NB to be a poorer DD choice and an NA or NC, or do you simply not like Miatas as DDs in general?

I can't speak to the NA or NC but I can agree that an NB is a cramped daily for someone 6' or taller. Rubbing my hair on the roof sucks. Of course without a roll bar, it's a little better. But who does that?

If I were Joe Perez, I would hold out for the uNiCorn PRHT stick shift.

Well, I'm 6'2" and 195 lbs. I DD'd NAs for 9 years, and have no complaints. Obviously I don't run roll-bars on the street, and don't ever plan to, so that probably contributes somewhat to my comfort.

I've driven NBs very short distances in the past, and I don't recall them feeling any more cramped than my NAs. I've also driven an NC on one occasion, and I recall it feeling quite claustrophobic, owing to the fact that the top of the door seemed much higher than on an NA/NB.



It would take a strongly compelling reason to make my buy an NC as opposed to an NB. I prefer the aesthetics of the NB, I prefer the familiar interior of the NB, and of course my knowledge-base of the NC (wiring, mechanicals, etc) is extremely lacking as compared to the NA/NB. I really don't want to have to learn a whole new platform.

OTOH, someone needs to get off their ass and install a Megasquirt in one...

Why? With openflash you get more or less all the tuning you could want for less than the cost of an MS2 and pass OBDii checks without any funny business.

Are the NC's DBW? If so then don't expect MS to ever support it.

And for my 5000th post...

This is hella gay, DBW is awesome and lets you do dirty dirty things with turbo cars if you have enough control over it.

Interesting.

Remember when I said that my knowledge of the NC is lacking? I meant it- I'm actually kind of a luddite when it comes to OEM ECUs. Gotta do me some reading.



While I understand that the developers are hesitant to officially support DBW for liability reasons, this is a political, rather than a technological challenge.

That said, I'd want to do a parallel install anyway, as the amount of code development that would be required to completely replicate all of the auxiliary functions of the OEM ECU would be burdensome.

The robbins cloth/canvas top, in my experience, has been significantly less fussy about cold weather than the 3 or so previous vinyl tops that I've had. Pinch the center and rear horizontal supports together with your fingers, and the top will settle under its own weight every time. Also, having had both an NA and an NB for DD Winter duty, I have seen no noticeable difference in comfort/performance between the two. Get a functional LSD with snow tires on all 4 corners, and everything else is trivial. I am 6'2" 200 lbs.

DBW not being supported is purely political because of the liability as you have stated. B&G is 2 people, along with 2 developers who do it part time. So I fully understand why they have no desire to touch DBW.

Now someone like Reverant could probably write DBW code for the NC and get it working correctly.

While going to school in Utah I dailied an NB1 with an OEM top. I'd drop the top all the time in the 30s and even 20s occasionally, (thought it was awesome to drive around in the cold with a beanie on) and the top lasted for my entire college experience. I sold the car so I'm not sure how much longer it went after that. I did occasionally let the cabin warm up and then used the top but the effort to fold and or latch it wasn't noticeably different. I used the top at least once a day during the spring and summer months as well. You'll be fine with a glass window and defrost.

So i've been daily driving my NA for the last week now. It's about on par with the NB, except the ride isn't as good (NA is modded, NB is stock). I found that i favor the NA more, but i feel it's only because it has a ton more power than the NB and is generally more fun.

They still aren't practical for me for reasons mentioned in my previous post. Even though they both have working heat and AC, cruise control, working radio, all the jazz both cars came with.

I did DD a grand am and it was much much better than the Miatas for daily life. Never had to worry about working a clutch in traffic, money shifting, other people seeing me and running me over, cramming bags of top soil or yard mulch in it.

In summation...

Q: Is it reasonable to drive a miata with a soft top in cold climates?
A: No, the miata lacks the comfort features and practicality that can be found in luxury sedans

Haha. Yeah, that's kind of where my mind was going. I didn't ask whether anyone thought the Miata was a practical daily-driver, I already know it is. I've DDed NAs for nine years, and cannot imagine desiring something [larger / comfier / more luxurious] for my specific situation. In fact, I owned a '93 Grand Am prior to the Integra that I owned before the first NA, and I hated that car. (The Grand Am, that is. It was an extremely comfy place to sit during the 15 hour drive that I made twice a year at the time, but extremely bland and non-fun as an everyday commuter car.)

All I need to know is how well they deal with snow, and specifically with regard to the decision between a ragtop and a PRHT, presupposing that I wish to lower and raise the top when it 20°F and sunny outside.

Or, how to sidetrack a thread with irrelevant commentary. :giggle:

I know when I think of a Pontiac Grand Am, the first thing that comes to mind is luxury.

damn.... i was too late... hahaha

Been in the New England area for many years with folks that daily the Miata. As long as you don't have the plastic window you can put the top down in freezing weather. I know people who drive NBs that always have the top down regardless of how cold it is. Plastic window is a no go as you need to bend that thing around too much and you're just asking for trouble in freezing weather. I won't say that putting the top down in freezing weather is necessarily good for it long term, but people do it without immediate short term consequences.

Come on Joe. I know you can read and comprehend words in a sentence. Let me quote what i wrote and just tell me if you can't understand what i'm saying.

In summation.
Miata + winter = possible
I had no issues with snow and freezing with the soft top. Wasn't cold. The car was fine. Everything was fine and worked. Just invest in snow tires.

To be clear i don't make points without seeing pros and cons of things. The miata in the winter was not fun because idiots in big dumb trucks would never see you. It wasn't the car, or me, or weather that made things unsafe and not practical but other people. Perhaps it's a location thing.