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Pinky 07-23-2013 07:28 AM

Owning a restaurant?
 
So I had a conversation late last night with the business broker who is handling my attempt to acquire a local restaurant, in which we agreed that based on some recent statements and actions, there is a very good possibility that the owner will accept my offer and sell said restaurant to said me.

Today.

My initial elation was followed by a nearly all-night long session of Fear and Crippling Doubt. I mean, I've done my due diligence to the "N-th" degree, written a realistic business plan, assembled an experienced team who are all on board if the deal goes through, and come up with an awesome "brand", but the truth is that I have minimal restaurant experience (at least on the other side of the counter), but that was 30 years ago working shitty part-time jobs. The notion that a morning may come in the very near future in which I have to go and operate a restaurant is suddenly very daunting.

While I have had businesses before that were not spectacular successes, I have never utterly flamed-out at anything in my life, and the real possibility of that happening in a very public and visible way is freaking me out.

While I know that this is *way* removed from Miata Turbodom, I'm hoping that perhaps some of you good people may have some experience either with Restauranting or Crippling Doubt, and might offer some insights on how to successfully manage either or both. They're both completely new concepts to me.

Braineack 07-23-2013 07:56 AM

there's no chance in hell I'd own a restaurant.

Pinky 07-23-2013 08:18 AM


Originally Posted by Braineack (Post 1035524)
there's no chance in hell I'd own a restaurant.

I'm curious why? Have you owned or managed one? While I definitely wouldn't want to *work* in a restaurant for the crap wages they make, owning doesn't seem so bad. Several of my friends own them, and they all seem to think that once you get a decent team working for you it's not bad at all. I'm going "Fast Casual" (order at the counter, food is run out to you) to avoid the hassle of dealing with servers (highest turnover rate, and they bump up what your customer pays by 20%, money that you'll never see..) so staffing shouldn't be the grind it is in a conventional server restaurant. The rest is just basic management of costs and projecting necessary inventory. With modern POS systems both of those tasks have been simplified considerably over the old "hunch" method.

What is it specific, beyond general Curmudgeonry, reason you wouldn't own one?

cpolly69 07-23-2013 08:23 AM

I can tell you as a 20 year vet of the restaurant business -
I've held every position from working in a store for little more then min wage all the way up to corporate office franchise consultant level (all levels of management in between) -
You have no business buying a restaurant or becoming a partner (especially in 2013) in a restaurant business unless you are ready to do all of the following -

work more then 60 hours a week every week forever
fire everyone but a minimal staff and run the place completely on your own
(when i say run, i mean serve, cook, clean, count the money, do the books, file all necessary paperwork for taxes and payroll, calculate your labor cost every day, calculate your food cost at least once a week, make food orders, make schedules, and the list goes on.....
i can tell you in the 5 years i spent as a area franchise coach i saw 50+ people come into the business and loose almost everything because they thought they were purchasing another "investment" that would have a quick "return"
a restaurant is a living, breathing, life consuming beast that is tough to do even for the most experienced person
btw fun fact -
do you know that between now and 2015 you have to either make sure no one (hourly) is working more then 30 hours a week or you will have to buy every single one health insurance
did you know that the average restaurant bottom line is less then 5% on a p&l after it's all said and done
i could rant for a long time, but the reality is that unless you have worked in a restaurant and managed a restaurant for years it's really a bad idea...

Braineack 07-23-2013 08:27 AM

No, but I watch a lot of TV. I mean in general it's a hard market to make money in, the failure rate is very high.

I'd probably end up firing everyone because if it was my butt on the line I wouldn't expect anything but excellence. And then it just seems like SOOOO much work, even if you're just an owner and the payoff is a complete gamble. I'd want all my staff to have like 6 months of training before they could even interact with a customer, I'd need competent chefs, an impeccable dining room, and I'd expect to work at least 80 hours.

I do have a friend in high school that bought some local bed and breakfast and they are doing quite nicely (so it seems). They just scored the sous chef from "The Inn" in DC, which is rated one of the best restaurants in the area.

What you should do is buy it, then get on Restaurant Impossible so you get featured on TV and have a menu designed by a real chef :)

cpolly69 07-23-2013 08:34 AM


Originally Posted by Pinky (Post 1035532)
I'm curious why? Have you owned or managed one? While I definitely wouldn't want to *work* in a restaurant for the crap wages they make, owning doesn't seem so bad. Several of my friends own them, and they all seem to think that once you get a decent team working for you it's not bad at all. I'm going "Fast Casual" (order at the counter, food is run out to you) to avoid the hassle of dealing with servers (highest turnover rate, and they bump up what your customer pays by 20%, money that you'll never see..) so staffing shouldn't be the grind it is in a conventional server restaurant. The rest is just basic management of costs and projecting necessary inventory. With modern POS systems both of those tasks have been simplified considerably over the old "hunch" method.

What is it specific, beyond general Curmudgeonry, reason you wouldn't own one?

I posted before this comment -
Ha I spent most of my life in fast-casual $10-$13 avg check and currently work in full service
Remember along with the higher avg check comes with higher food cost and a slightly higher expected wage rate for your employees
Whoever told you that fast-casual has a lower turnover rate isn't doing their homework
Pick up a few issues of a mag called QSR and take a read
When you say modern POS - Who radiant micros? What hardware and software is running it? Because there is no perfect ops software - all of it takes maintenance that is heavily involved, some examples of what i mean -
pos is going to calculate labor for your business - well i needs full and up to date info on each and every employee - payrate, hours, etc
and guess what hourly employees suck and clocking themselves out and in when they need to - so that has to be checked every day
how about food cost? the pos needs to know the cost of every item you are selling so if it's a nice one it's going to have a database of every item you need to purchase in order to make things run
said list must be updated (for a big restaurant that's twice a week)
and how do it get inventory info to calculate food cost?
from you
you need to take inventory at least once a week - that's a total and accurate inventory
do you know the math for that?
it's beginning inventory + your purchases = you goods available divided by your sales
if that number is higher then 30% most of the time you can start kissing that 5% profit good bye....

Pinky 07-23-2013 09:37 AM

^^^. All excellent points, and challenges of which I'm aware, hence the Fear and Crippling Doubt. Here's what I'm thinking to mitigate those risks-

The high failure rate of restaurants is generally for new restaurants who spend all their capital getting open and then find themselves quickly in financial trouble when business fails to grow quickly enough to cover costs, resulting in desperate attempts to reduce food and labor costs, leading to poor food poorly served, and the resulting death spiral. I can imagine as a franchise coach you've seen a lot of these, as every new franchise is a completely new business. I am buying an existing (10 years plus) moderately successful restaurant, which currently serves only French food between the hours of 11-2:30 Monday through Friday. It's in the heart of downtown, surrounded by huge companies and government offices, and I have sat and watched thousands of people walk past his shuttered doors at 8 am and 5 pm, all opportunities which he is missing. I'm also very well capitalized, and can survive any lull that may occur. At lunch the same thousands of people walk past his door, because let's face it, how much quiche can you eat? It's begging for a rebranding, and doing so would certainly attract more diners

My understanding of the new health care law is that it only applies to companies with more than 15 employees, which this 90 seat place will never require.

The record-keeping and management you cite are standard fare for *any* business, large or small. Ignore costs and inventory in any business and you're doomed to failure.

Yes, it's a lot of work, and a lot of hours, both of which I'm prepared for and actually looking forward to. My other investments are all pretty much humming away with minimal time demands, and frankly I'm a bit bored.

The "lack of food service experience" is the one factor which really worries me; you're right, going into a business in which you have little experience is a bit nutty. But I'm hoping to mitigate that a bit by buying that knowledge in the form of a good experienced team of trusted people, which I have lined up and ready to go. It'll still be a huge learning curve for me, but I have a *long* history of tap-dancing myself into positions for which I have no knowledge nor experience and quickly figuring it out. (So much so that I'm willing to bet big money on my ability to do it again.

There's no doubt, food service is a tough business. Yet there are restaurants that somehow make it work. Lots and lots of them.

Having discussed the pitfalls, can you share some insight as to the ones who *didnt* flame out? What are the major factors in their success in your opinion ?

Pinky 07-23-2013 09:48 AM


Originally Posted by Braineack (Post 1035537)

<snip>

What you should do is buy it, then get on Restaurant Impossible so you get featured on TV and have a menu designed by a real chef :)

OMG, that would be so cool, although I think I'd do better punching Gordon Ramsey than Robert Irvine (that dude is pretty stout!) so it would have to be Kitchen Nighgmares. I wonder if they'd actually be interested in a "unprepared noob owner" story line versus their usual "your food is shit and you're a pussy boss" theme? More importantly, I wonder if the exposure is ultimately (three months post production) a positive or negative thing.

Braineack 07-23-2013 09:54 AM

sounds like the plot of every episode. But if you really want to be well off, by a bar and get on Bar Rescue. Jon Taffer brings the good stuff.

y8s 07-23-2013 10:12 AM

I dont think you'll have to worry about high failure rate with an existing establishment in Jax. In a major metro area, you might. Or if you're in a former pizza hut building--those turn over more than women in pr0n.

I've toyed with the idea of owning and running an awesome bar but beyond the fact that I could never afford to do it in the first place, I dont like working nights and weekends and touching sticky bars. I imagine restaurants are similar (dinner peak time ones anyway).

I also get scared away by the very non-constant nature of restaurants. You get very high peaks and very low lulls during a given day. And if a group shows up that you weren't expecting during the lulls, you have to deal FAST or suffer the yelp consequences of insufficient idle staff.

BUT!
if you're looking to bring something great to an area that is in need, you could do well. And if you fail, just turn it into an elevation burger.

Elevation Burger Franchise Information | Entrepreneur.com

Ryan_G 07-23-2013 10:14 AM

I am not an expert by any means on this topic but the biggest advice I have for you in the restaurant industry is to not "trust" your employees. You want a good team and you need to let them do their jobs but you also need to be watching them like a hawk. I am an accountant by profession and I use the motto "trust but verify". Restaurant employees are notorious for ripping off the owners. This happens most often with the employees you trust the most. I know you are not inexperienced but you mentioned a trusted crew multiple times and that concerned me a bit. Everyone from managers to servers can steal from you hand over fist if you let them.

Pinky 07-23-2013 10:19 AM


Originally Posted by Braineack (Post 1035537)
No, but I watch a lot of TV. I mean in general it's a hard market to make money in, the failure rate is very high.

I'd probably end up firing everyone because if it was my butt on the line I wouldn't expect anything but excellence. And then it just seems like SOOOO much work, even if you're just an owner and the payoff is a complete gamble. I'd want all my staff to have like 6 months of training before they could even interact with a customer, I'd need competent chefs, an impeccable dining room, and I'd expect to work at least 80 hours.

I do have a friend in high school that bought some local bed and breakfast and they are doing quite nicely (so it seems). They just scored the sous chef from "The Inn" in DC, which is rated one of the best restaurants in the area.

What you should do is buy it, then get on Restaurant Impossible so you get featured on TV and have a menu designed by a real chef :)


Originally Posted by Braineack (Post 1035604)
sounds like the plot of every episode. But if you really want to be well off, by a bar and get on Bar Rescue. Jon Taffer brings the good stuff.


Yeah, that generally seems to be the restaurant Kiss Of Death; bad food with bad service in a poorly run, dirty establishment. It's interesting that all of them (Ramsey, Irvine and Taffer) all pretty much stress the same things; a focus on well-prepared fresh food, a boss who isn't afraid of holding employees accountable, including himself, and making a clean and enjoyable atmosphere for diners. Nail those, and the rest is just details.

Anyway, it's actually an interesting idea. One of my buddy's places was on Diners Drive-ins and Dives and had a great experience, but that place just features already great places. The "Disaster" shows are a whole different kettle of fish. Still sort of compelling though. I wonder if its a good or bad idea?

Pinky 07-23-2013 10:23 AM


Originally Posted by Ryan_G (Post 1035616)
I am not an expert by any means on this topic but the biggest advice I have for you in the restaurant industry is to not "trust" your employees. You want a good team and you need to let them do their jobs but you also need to be watching them like a hawk. I am an accountant by profession and I use the motto "trust but verify". Restaurant employees are notorious for ripping off the owners. This happens most often with the employees you trust the most. I know you are not inexperienced but you mentioned a trusted crew multiple times and that concerned me a bit. Everyone from managers to servers can steal from you hand over fist if you let them.

Sage advice, thanks.

Braineack 07-23-2013 10:32 AM


Originally Posted by Pinky (Post 1035617)
It's interesting that all of them (Ramsey, Irvine and Taffer) all pretty much stress the same things; a focus on well-prepared fresh food, a boss who isn't afraid of holding employees accountable, including himself, and making a clean and enjoyable atmosphere for diners. Nail those, and the rest is just details.

I'd much rather have Taffer come and help me. He actually uses stats, science, and best practices to get people in the door and stay longer. (e.g., he doesn't like fluorescent lighting like because of the refresh rate of the bulbs which prematurely makes your eye tired, and thus the customer will leave earlier)

but, yeah. You honestly can't fail if the food is baller.

There was a place out here that went under that got HUGE from the president continually visiting. The owner then opened like 3 other restaurants all within walking distance...the quality and service dropped off severely as he focused his efforts elsewhere and now he only has the open still IIRC. I mean you can't get better exposure than that, but it's still so easy to fail if you don't do it right.

We have a local "chain" here that I compare every other restaurant I dine in to. I call it my Sweetwater Scale.

Tekel 07-23-2013 11:57 AM

I've have thought MANY times about opening a resturaunt. I look around and see so many getting run into the ground it is disgusting. Crap workers, crap food, crap service. Every non-chain that opens here suffers the same fate. They open strong and quickly drop off in terms of quality

In the end I will never do it because a) our service industry work force here is garbage and it is only a job to them and they do the minimum to get by that hour til they get off. They aren't even trying to get through the day, just the hour. b) Oversight that is required that includes the required hours. Nights and weekends. c) Capital investment. I have none.

But my dream restaurant is a high end burger place. Low light, fancy modern decor. Think complete opposite of a Five Guys inside. It seems to be the trendy thing to do, but I like to think i'm a high-end burger hipster and have had the idea going on 7-8years now.

y8s 07-23-2013 12:19 PM


Originally Posted by Braineack (Post 1035622)
There was a place out here that went under that got HUGE from the president continually visiting. The owner then opened like 3 other restaurants all within walking distance...the quality and service dropped off severely as he focused his efforts elsewhere and now he only has the open still IIRC. I mean you can't get better exposure than that, but it's still so easy to fail if you don't do it right.

I know I know, let's make a restaurant cash only so that we exclude 90% of paying customers!!

hashtag #derp

Braineack 07-23-2013 12:21 PM

1 Attachment(s)
you don't think opening the same restaurant literally next door, but allowing CC/Debit, but sit-down-only was a good idea?

or opening another restaurant across the street from both of them that offered more or less the same menu -/+ a few options was also smart?


I think this Yelp review sums it up:


It is obvious that fame has gotten into the owners head. We started eating at Rays in Sept. 2012 and quickly fell in love with what my boyfriend deemed the best burger in DC. However, within a few short months (beginning of Dec 2012 actually!) we have seen the service and quality decline. We received our burgers in paper bags and were informed that rays no longer offered plates for dine in customers... really for a $8 burger NO PLATES?! On top of that their staff is not friendly in the least bit and way over staffed. And one of our burgers was not seasoned at all.

We read reviews of people who used to come to Rays before POTUS did and they missed the old times when the staff was nicer, prices were lower and burgers were bigger. Rays will no longer be getting any of our money if it continues down this path to McDonalds.
The guy started so many projects and couldn't pay his bills:

http://www.arlnow.com/2013/01/16/ray...enant-dispute/
http://dc.eater.com/tags/ryse


Shott reports that a general contractor has filed a series of lawsuits "charging the restaurateur with unpaid bills totaling a combined $348,483, plus interest, for construction work at three locations, including Retro Ray’s and Ray’s to the Third in Arlington, as well as the restaurateur’s yet-unopened D.C. bakery called Ryse."

Pinky 07-23-2013 12:28 PM


Originally Posted by y8s (Post 1035726)
I know I know, let's make a restaurant cash only so that we exclude 90% of paying customers!!

hashtag #derp

On a related note, I noticed that his reported gross sales each month are 100% all credit cards, when you extrapolate it out based on merchant fees. Yup, not a penny of cash, honest injun Mr Tax Man. Curiously, his food costs are really high compared to his gross, but he uses cheap shit.

My CPA says CC sales are generally 80-85%..

Interesting, huh?

Tekel 07-23-2013 12:31 PM


Originally Posted by Pinky (Post 1035735)
On a related note, I noticed that his reported gross sales each month are 100% all credit cards, when you extrapolate it out based on merchant fees. Yup, not a penny of cash, honest injun Mr Tax Man. Curiously, his food costs are really high compared to his gross, but he uses cheap shit.

My CPA says CC sales are generally 80-85%..

Interesting, huh?

Sounds like when I waited tables. Those jerks who paid in cash never tipped ;)

Braineack 07-23-2013 12:34 PM


Originally Posted by Tekel (Post 1035705)

But my dream restaurant is a high end burger place. Low light, fancy modern decor. Think complete opposite of a Five Guys inside. It seems to be the trendy thing to do, but I like to think i'm a high-end burger hipster and have had the idea going on 7-8years now.

IT'S RAWWRRRRRRRRR!!!!

Welcome to Gordon Ramsay BurgR

and welcome to the bandwagon; within just a few miles of each other in Arlington:
Elevation Burger, Ray's To the Third, (2) BGR the Joint, Five Guys, Big Buns, Burger 7, Burger Shack.

I'm sure I'm missing a few.

soviet 07-23-2013 12:46 PM

Opened thread thinking that mt couldn't possibly deliver useful advice on such a topic.

Was so wrong.

Tekel 07-23-2013 12:49 PM


Originally Posted by Braineack (Post 1035741)
IT'S RAWWRRRRRRRRR!!!!

Welcome to Gordon Ramsay BurgR

and welcome to the bandwagon; within just a few miles of each other in Arlington:
Elevation Burger, Ray's To the Third, (2) BGR the Joint, Five Guys, Big Buns, Burger 7, Burger Shack.

I'm sure I'm missing a few.

Looking at the pics, Ramsay's Burgr is spot on what I want to do.

As far as the bandwagon, luckily we are still years behind up here in WV. We just got a Five Guys this past year and that is the only burger centric restaurant. Unless you try to count the chains like Ruby Tuesday, Applebess, etc.

Scrappy Jack 07-23-2013 02:53 PM


Originally Posted by Pinky (Post 1035519)
So I had a conversation late last night with the business broker who is handling my attempt to acquire a local restaurant, in which we agreed that based on some recent statements and actions, there is a very good possibility that the owner will accept my offer and sell said restaurant to said me.

Today.

My initial elation was followed by a nearly all-night long session of Fear and Crippling Doubt.

Having read through this thread so far and your rotating car collection thread, I get the impression that you have potential. You have identified and are at least conscious of the greatest flaws I see in most restaurants plus you come from a business background.

Good food, good service, the right prices, plus the right advertising. If the location is in the downtown business district, a little advertising to the local office workers might go a long way.

I would personally avoid the daily deals and heavy coupons. I know I am not the only person that hesitates to go to a place and pay full price once I come to expect a coupon in the near term.


As far as the POS system, if you have any questions on that or are looking for a potential upgrade, I know a local guy who designs and runs a company in that field that I could put you in touch with. If you are familiar with downtown Orlando, a majority of the clubs and bars (including those with kitchens) use their platform. PM me if that's something you want to look in to.


Ulterior Motive Disclaimer: I secretly daydream about opening up a bar and want to watch your progress and pick your brain over time. :party:

miata2fast 07-23-2013 05:34 PM

Paging Icantdo55.

He has a Billiard Bar and Restaurant. Not exactly the same kind of business, but I would love to hear his input.

cpolly69 07-23-2013 09:08 PM


Originally Posted by Pinky (Post 1035587)
^^^. All excellent points, and challenges of which I'm aware, hence the Fear and Crippling Doubt. Here's what I'm thinking to mitigate those risks-

The high failure rate of restaurants is generally for new restaurants who spend all their capital getting open and then find themselves quickly in financial trouble when business fails to grow quickly enough to cover costs, resulting in desperate attempts to reduce food and labor costs, leading to poor food poorly served, and the resulting death spiral.

Not necessarily the only scenario that can lead to said spiral - I'm more familiar with the restaurant wearing down over the years, the owner finally getting to the point where the original borrowed money is paid back, and now that it seems like the money will roll in everything is breaking -
Commercial HVAC & especially hoods
Grills, Broilers, Fryers, Line coolers, ovens, and all sorts of equipment are insanely expensive and generally at the point of a restaurant's maturity is when they all start to take a crap on you
not to mention stuff like paint, tile, sheetrock, etc etc
i guess what i'm getting at here is if you're set on buying this thing - you need a good solid list of the equipment that's there now and it's true condition
dirty coils on line coolers, filthy insides of ovens, or broilers that look like they've never been disassembled are all sings that an owner was too cheap to do a pm program -
not only do these things have to be functional, but they have to be food safety compliant
stray away from these standards and the local health department will shut you down
if you haven't already, you should look into taking a class like servesafe to get you started


I can imagine as a franchise coach you've seen a lot of these, as every new franchise is a completely new business. I am buying an existing (10 years plus) moderately successful restaurant, which currently serves only French food between the hours of 11-2:30 Monday through Friday. It's in the heart of downtown, surrounded by huge companies and government offices, and I have sat and watched thousands of people walk past his shuttered doors at 8 am and 5 pm, all opportunities which he is missing. I'm also very well capitalized, and can survive any lull that may occur. At lunch the same thousands of people walk past his door, because let's face it, how much quiche can you eat? It's begging for a rebranding, and doing so would certainly attract more diners

The ops hours sound nice
Just be aware that a big part of building reputation with potential new guests is consistency and your operating hours are super important here
If you want to add more hours to when you're open just make sure it' not something you try out for 2 weeks and then change again
A lot of small restaurant owners also start to take the stance over the years of "well i'm just going to be here, when it's busy then i'll shut down when the rush is over"
So you start to see different open/close times every day because it really turns into it's open when the owner feels like it
Post the hours on the door and stick to them - Make sure everyone else does the same
If you change put up a big sign


My understanding of the new health care law is that it only applies to companies with more than 15 employees, which this 90 seat place will never require.

You're right about the size of the company, but I think there may be some different expectations for how you take care of your employees in the works.

The record-keeping and management you cite are standard fare for *any* business, large or small. Ignore costs and inventory in any business and you're doomed to failure.

Yes, it's a lot of work, and a lot of hours, both of which I'm prepared for and actually looking forward to. My other investments are all pretty much humming away with minimal time demands, and frankly I'm a bit bored.

The "lack of food service experience" is the one factor which really worries me; you're right, going into a business in which you have little experience is a bit nutty. But I'm hoping to mitigate that a bit by buying that knowledge in the form of a good experienced team of trusted people, which I have lined up and ready to go. It'll still be a huge learning curve for me, but I have a *long* history of tap-dancing myself into positions for which I have no knowledge nor experience and quickly figuring it out. (So much so that I'm willing to bet big money on my ability to do it again.

This lack of experience you speak of is the biggest reason I'm negative on the whole idea -
The reality is that if you can't train someone to do something the right way in your restaurant then any employee who knows how to do things the right way (or what he/she thinks is the right way) has power over you
An hourly employee with power over you is a surefire way to diminish any chance of you having authority there
If you don't have authority, you will fail - You can not be their friend
Again if you're really set on it, I think you should work out something with the existing owner to work in the restaurant for 3-4 months before actually moving on to buying it.
I was a manager and a district manager for a franchisee
Then I took a job with the same company's corporate office
After doing that for 5 years - I took a better job with a bigger company at a much later age in life
The training program with my current company (which is the biggest, number of units, full service chain on the planet) was 120 days long - At the end of the training period I was still a bit unsure of myself in many scenarios - Only after a full year working for this company do I feel really confident running things on a daily basis and I'm a 20 yr vet...



There's no doubt, food service is a tough business. Yet there are restaurants that somehow make it work. Lots and lots of them.

Having discussed the pitfalls, can you share some insight as to the ones who *didnt* flame out? What are the major factors in their success in your opinion ?

I took all day to respond because I was out enjoying life on my day off - I don't get many of them and when I do I squeeze in a lot of stuff....

Efini~FC3S 07-24-2013 11:29 AM


Originally Posted by soviet (Post 1035746)
Opened thread thinking that mt couldn't possibly deliver useful advice on such a topic.

Was so wrong.

THIS

I've experienced this so many times that MT.net is now my go to source for basically any question I have, on any topic.

Beds, appliances, whiskey, life choices, etc.

Pinky 07-24-2013 04:48 PM

Ugh. This maniac is asking almost *six* times EBITDA on a place that has declining financials, fully depreciated equipment and no current lease, and won't come off his asking price at all, not even a penny. I've already made an offer that's literally half way between what the CPA says its worth and his insane asking price, and the cat won't budge. It's easily the craziest negotiation I've ever been involved with.

I'm really not sure what to do.

Ryan_G 07-24-2013 04:59 PM

I wouldn't budge from where you're at now. If anything I would walk away and let the guy try to sell it to someone else. He will likely come back somewhat desperate and then you can get it for a little lower than your original offer.

EDIT: Are you structuring the deal as a lump cash offer? You might use various other forms of payment like annuities in order to get close or at his number while retaining a present value within your comfortable range. Your CPA should be able to help you with this.

Scrappy Jack 07-24-2013 05:26 PM

Are there any "comparables" in terms of restaurant sales? 6x EBITDA doesn't really tell me anything.

What if I told you that most mature publically traded casual restaurant groups trade at an average EV/EBITDA of 8-9x and more growth oriented full service companies are trading at 9 - 11x?

I would think his number is too high, but what are your CPA's qualifications for valuing a restaurant like his?

sixshooter 07-24-2013 05:50 PM

Run away. I have been the GM of a restaurant back in my past and was successful and ran good numbers after I got the hang of it but would seriously consider setting myself on fire as an alternative to doing it again. And I was making pretty good money.

Scrappy Jack 07-24-2013 06:19 PM

Damn. I just realized no one has asked the most vital question - something sixshooter made me think about:

Pinky - Do you have a passion for the restaurant concept you are envisioning?

Pinky 07-24-2013 07:35 PM


Originally Posted by Ryan_G (Post 1036381)
I wouldn't budge from where you're at now. If anything I would walk away and let the guy try to sell it to someone else. He will likely come back somewhat desperate and then you can get it for a little lower than your original offer.


EDIT: Are you structuring the deal as a lump cash offer? You might use various other forms of payment like annuities in order to get close or at his number while retaining a present value within your comfortable range. Your CPA should be able to help you with this.

That's precisely what we're doing. He's had no other offers since it's been listed (because his price is nutty) and we think he's just trying to play hard-ball to see if we'll come there. My offer expires friday at midnight, so maybe cooler heads will prevail by then. If not, I'll give him a month or two of realizing he lost out on a great deal. He's emotionally over owning it, I think he'll come back with a reasonable deal. He has been very explicit about wanting cash and nothing else.


Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack (Post 1036406)
Are there any "comparables" in terms of restaurant sales? 6x EBITDA doesn't really tell me anything.

What if I told you that most mature publically traded casual restaurant groups trade at an average EV/EBITDA of 8-9x and more growth oriented full service companies are trading at 9 - 11x?

I would think his number is too high, but what are your CPA's qualifications for valuing a restaurant like his?

I'm pretty comfortable with our valuation; I've discussed it with my regular CPA as well as the restaurant-specific practice CPA who handles a close-friends chain of restaurants, and they both came up with the same number. Beyond that, my broker, who routinely deals in restaurant transactions feels his price is really out of line, as do several of my restaurant owner friends.


Originally Posted by sixshooter (Post 1036418)
Run away. I have been the GM of a restaurant back in my past and was successful and ran good numbers after I got the hang of it but would seriously consider setting myself on fire as an alternative to doing it again. And I was making pretty good money.

Different people are happy in different situations. Owning a restaurant has been a dream of mine for a long time, and I'm finally at a point in my life where I'm financially and personally ready to pursue it. I've always had a knack for both recognizing opportunity and being able to follow through, and I believe in my self enough to trust those instincts in this deal.


Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack (Post 1036432)
Damn. I just realized no one has asked the most vital question - something sixshooter made me think about:

Pinky - Do you have a passion for the restaurant concept you are envisioning?

Absolutely, or i wouldn't even be considering it. After my wife died I made a conscious decision to never spend another minute of this preciously short life doing anything besides what I'm passionate about, and walked away from a deep six-figure income to pursue that goal. Circumstances finally permit me to consider the investment of time needed to chase the restaurant goal, and so here we are.

(I might point out that I could, if so inclined, spend my days on the couch watching cartoons and doing bong swats; I'm just not wired that way. The heavy lifting has already been done on my other interests and I'm frankly bored and needing a new challenge.)

sixshooter 07-25-2013 06:44 AM

My restaurant had 28 to 32 employees responding to volume changes over two years. Half of the employees were skimming/stealing at any given time. You have to lock the food up that is not immediately needed for that day and inventory the rest, shift by shift and compare yields from the tickets on the floor to actual food usage every shift to isolate problems. Some of the employees who were nicest to me and would do extra things to help me out were stealing. They felt guilty enough about stealing to want to help me out because they liked me, but didn't feel guilty enough to stop stealing. A quality POS system is the best way to control the waitress' access to the goods coming out of the kitchen and prevent them from giving away food. Ringing up lesser items instead of the big ticket items the customer actually consumes and then getting a healthy tip from the customer is common if they are given leeway to pull it off. Or you will just catch someone who works for you carrying a case of steaks to their car when you show up on a day you are supposed to be off.

I will respond more later when I have more time.

The guy selling might be holding his price because he owes so much money because of the debt he has accumulated trying to keep the doors open. Buy used restaurant supplies (freezers, fridges, etc. to save money). Learn to fix them yourself.

Scrappy Jack 07-25-2013 07:12 AM


Originally Posted by Pinky (Post 1036451)
I'm pretty comfortable with our valuation; I've discussed it with my regular CPA as well as the restaurant-specific practice CPA who handles a close-friends chain of restaurants, and they both came up with the same number. Beyond that, my broker, who routinely deals in restaurant transactions feels his price is really out of line, as do several of my restaurant owner friends.

[...] Owning a restaurant has been a dream of mine for a long time, and I'm finally at a point in my life where I'm financially and personally ready to pursue it. I've always had a knack for both recognizing opportunity and being able to follow through, and I believe in my self enough to trust those instincts in this deal.

[...] [RE: "Are you passionate about the idea of the restaurant?"] Absolutely, or i wouldn't even be considering it.


Based on the above, I say: go for it, but stick with your offer.

Braineack 07-25-2013 07:23 AM


Originally Posted by Pinky (Post 1036451)
Owning a restaurant has been a dream of mine for a long time, and I'm finally at a point in my life where I'm financially and personally ready to pursue it.

Funny! Eating at a restaurant[s] has been a dream of mine for a long time, and I'm finally at a point in my life where I'm financially and personally ready to pursue it.

sixshooter 07-25-2013 08:01 AM

Expect to not be able to pay yourself for a long time, but rather to continue to spend large portions of your savings propping the place up after you have spent a large sum of money purchasing it. It often takes 12-18 months for an experienced manager to get the cashflow to a positive number to begin to pay off debts. Until then much of it comes out of pocket for the food, mortgage, electric, payroll, etc. You will be spending more than you will take in for many months.

Wait! Did you say you will be re-naming the place and changing the menu? Then why are you paying money for an existing business? All you buy is a reputation and a "brand" when you spend anything more than the cost of the building and equipment. If you are changing the brand then you only need a lease and the equipment and are throwing money away if you are spending a dollar more.

miata2fast 07-25-2013 08:29 AM


Originally Posted by Braineack (Post 1036564)
Funny! Eating at a restaurant[s] has been a dream of mine for a long time, and I'm finally at a point in my life where I'm financially and personally ready to pursue it.

Habit that is hard to break. As soon as I finish typing this, I am on my way to Anna's.:dealwithit:

Ryan_G 07-25-2013 08:39 AM


Originally Posted by sixshooter (Post 1036576)
Wait! Did you say you will be re-naming the place and changing the menu? Then why are you paying money for an existing business? All you buy is a reputation and a "brand" when you spend anything more than the cost of the building and equipment. If you are changing the brand then you only need a lease and the equipment and are throwing money away if you are spending a dollar more.

This is actually a very great point that has not been mentioned yet in the thread.

sixshooter 07-25-2013 11:26 AM


Originally Posted by cpolly69 (Post 1035533)
work more then 60 hours a week every week forever +1
fire everyone but a minimal staff and run the place completely on your own
(when i say run, i mean
serve,+1
cook, big +1
clean, also a big +1
count the money, +1
do the books, +1 daily
file all necessary paperwork for taxes and payroll,
calculate your labor cost every day, +1
calculate your food cost at least once a week, always daily but by shift if there is a problem so you can find the culprit +1
make food orders, +1 You will lose food initially due to spoilage because you won't know your needed daily prep levels and can't afford to run out. Improper sourcing can cost you more as well. Set up accounts with major delivering restaurant suppliers like SYSCO and the like.
make schedules, +1 If you under staff customers will suffer and not return. Try not to overstaff, but iff you are and it ends up being a slow shift, cut excess staff early to save payroll. Don't be guilted into keeping them the whole shift.
and the list goes on.....
a restaurant is a... life consuming beast that is tough to do even for the most experienced person +1


i could rant for a long time, but the reality is that unless you have worked in a restaurant and managed a restaurant for years it's really a bad idea... +1


Originally Posted by cpolly69 (Post 1035543)
you need to take inventory at least once a week - that's a total and accurate inventory

Total means everything, bottles of ketchup... everything. If you don't keep very accurate records you won't know what is going on. A glass of unsweet tea may cost 4 cents and be sold for $2.50. A steak may cost $6 and be sold for $14 a la carte. Which is easier to notice when it is given away? Which yields a greater profit in dollars? Which will give you a higher food cost percentage loss more quickly? It is a complex problem to track because it is very easy to give away a tea but it is costly to lose the sale of a tea.

As a side benefit, you will also be able to overlay the daily records from year to year and predict food usage and staffing needs for a given day as time goes on (ie. the 3rd week in August might be different from the second one if school has started). It will also allow you to track problem trends down to the individual who was or wasn't working on certain days when food costs were a bit higher.

Some of the more important lessons I learned were to:

1. Recruit better help constantly so that you can upgrade your staff. If you go to a restaurant or grocery store and somebody is particularly nice and efficient at what they do, ask them if they have the particular hours they want, are making the money they want, or are being treated well by management. Offer them a job.
Recruit better help constantly so that you can upgrade your staff. Recruit better help constantly so that you can upgrade your staff. And when you get a chance, recruit better help constantly so that you can upgrade your staff.

2. Fire weak links early and often because keeping them abuses your good staff members and degrades morale. Good employees have to carry the weight of the bad ones and that creates resentment toward the management. It also shows the better ones that they don't really have to try as hard or do as much to get by, and that you are OK with it.

3. "No call, no show = no job, the very 1st time." Demand responsible employees. Your good employees have to pick up slack when the bad ones don't show up for work. That creates resentment toward the management.

4. "Stop leaning and start cleaning." It starts with the boss. Start cleaning something if you have a minute and ask employees to help by cleaning XY or Z in their area. (this is especially difficult in a newly renovated place because theoretically most things are clean and new). Pick something new to clean or repair every day and lead by example to show your pride in the place (hard to find time and energy to do when there is bookkeeping to be done).

5. Keep your a$$ out of the back office. Be where the money is being made and lost and drive the stinkin' ship. This is especially important during lunch and dinner rush. Put yourself on the grill before they get in the weeds, not after.

6. Let them all know they are not just a "cook or waitress" but a team member that is responsible for restaurant upkeep and cleaning. If they have experience already there will be bad habits and they need to know this is not like everyplace else. You need and expect they will clean anything and everything if they are hired.

7. Pull key employees aside and tell them that you appreciate how they are helping you. Tell them that you depend on them. Then tell them you have XYZ problem and ask them to please help you fix it by doing ABC extra task or doing DEF procedure differently because you know you can count on them to help you. Then in a hour go to the next employee and do the same until in a few days you have told them all. Then start with the first one again with a new focus or task. You can get about 80% of what you ask to have done this way.

8. Post a short list of 3 or 4 extra things you want to try to get cleaned or deep cleaned that day and make everyone aware that you are going to try to get to one of them yourself and ask them to try to team up and knock a couple out when they can in between customers. Always make it about doing those things as a personal favor to you, not because they were assigned.

9. Never hire anyone who is out of work. Hire people who are working somewhere they don't like, but they are still working somewhere. A responsible person would not be without a job, even if it was a job that sucked or was beneath them. Don't hire people who are OK with being at home and not working, even for a week. I could leave where I am right now and have 4 jobs minimum by day's end just walking up the street on foot if I tried. Most would likely be beneath me but I damn sure wouldn't have to go without a job at all if I lost one. The only people who can't find work are too lazy or too uppity to take what is out there, and you want neither of those. I learned to despise the phrase, "I'm just trying to get back on my feet." Run away if you hear that. Any self-repecting person is still on their feet fighting because they have bills to pay and are responsible for them. Off their feet means they have accepted failure and have laid down and become lazy and worthless. The restaurant business is high turnover and you learn to recognize patterns after a couple dozen firings.

***OK, as someone with a degree in psychology and having been to too many management and sales schools in my time, this is very important to having a successful management experience anywhere:

10. Always make eye contact and thank them while they are doing the job or tasks you need done and praise their help directly to them while looking them in the eye when they have completed. Make it very personal and make them feel genuinely appreciated, because you do genuinely appreciate it. Be specific about the things they did well. You have no idea how few times people are given positive feedback like this at home or elsewhere in their lives. People crave it and don't or can't verbalize it. Many more people will follow you to the ends of the earth with this treatment than you can imagine. It generates incredible loyalty and superior productivity. People work for people, not companies. People are dedicated to people, not companies. People will follow people whose praise they wish to have (especially people with daddy or mommy issues, or older women whose own sons and husbands don't ever tell them they appreciate them).

sixshooter 07-25-2013 11:29 AM


Originally Posted by Ryan_G (Post 1036588)
This is actually a very great point that has not been mentioned yet in the thread.

It is actually the most important single point in this thread.

Braineack 07-25-2013 11:30 AM

I would apply to this:

http://files.dhweb.com/bevinco/bevin...t_brochure.pdf

miata2fast 07-25-2013 12:18 PM

That's it, after seeing this thread I am getting into the restaurant business. I can see the returns are far better than the business I am in.

Scrappy Jack 07-25-2013 01:07 PM


Originally Posted by miata2fast (Post 1036694)
That's it, after seeing this thread I am getting into the restaurant business. I can see the returns are far better than the business I am in.

sixshooter's compelling pitch sold you, huh? :D

Joe Perez 07-25-2013 01:47 PM


Originally Posted by Braineack (Post 1036660)

This is interesting, and I'd never even heard of an external liquor-auditing service before.

One thing puzzles me- they claim that "You’ll see any discrepancies, spotlight top-selling brands (and “dead” stock), streamline purchasing, and even highlight shifts costing you the most."

If they only weigh the liquor once a week, how can they pinpoint individual shifts which are causing the most loss?

Pinky 07-25-2013 02:03 PM


Originally Posted by sixshooter (Post 1036576)
Expect to not be able to pay yourself for a long time, but rather to continue to spend large portions of your savings propping the place up after you have spent a large sum of money purchasing it. It often takes 12-18 months for an experienced manager to get the cashflow to a positive number to begin to pay off debts. Until then much of it comes out of pocket for the food, mortgage, electric, payroll, etc. You will be spending more than you will take in for many months.

Wait! Did you say you will be re-naming the place and changing the menu? Then why are you paying money for an existing business? All you buy is a reputation and a "brand" when you spend anything more than the cost of the building and equipment. If you are changing the brand then you only need a lease and the equipment and are throwing money away if you are spending a dollar more.


Originally Posted by Ryan_G (Post 1036588)
This is actually a very great point that has not been mentioned yet in the thread.

Yeah, not lost on me. It's the *location*, that specific insanely cool old building in an insanely cool and opportunity-filled location, already built out and equipped, which I'm primarily buying. He does have an existing customer base, enough to keep the doors open for ten years, which also has some value, but it's the building and the FF&E I'm after. I'm under a Non-Disclosure so I can't really get into specifics, but there are a number of really unique circumstances that make that place worth buying. His financials (and my first hand experience in stalking the place through a number of lunch services) lead me to believe that he's missing out on a shit ton of opportunities because he's never really open and his food blows. And he plays Kenny G-esque soft jazz on his background music.

Pinky 07-25-2013 02:05 PM


Originally Posted by miata2fast (Post 1036694)
That's it, after seeing this thread I am getting into the restaurant business. I can see the returns are far better than the business I am in.

Right? I was initially filled with excitement and anticipation, then came the night of Fear and Crippling Doubt, and now I just feel a little queasy. :crx:

Braineack 07-25-2013 02:11 PM


Originally Posted by Joe Perez (Post 1036735)
This is interesting, and I'd never even heard of an external liquor-auditing service before.

One thing puzzles me- they claim that "You’ll see any discrepancies, spotlight top-selling brands (and “dead” stock), streamline purchasing, and even highlight shifts costing you the most."

If they only weigh the liquor once a week, how can they pinpoint individual shifts which are causing the most loss?


I don't see that claim. I'd assume you couldn't pinpoint it like that...

You could possibly review the POS and see when/who is serving what particular alcohol that's suffering from "shrinkage" and possibly figure it out?

Joe Perez 07-25-2013 02:46 PM

2 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by Braineack (Post 1036749)
I don't see that claim.

It's right there in the PDF that you linked to, lower-left quadrant of the second page:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1374777995




You could possibly review the POS and see when/who is serving what particular alcohol that's suffering from "shrinkage" and possibly figure it out?
The POS only tells you what's being sold, not what's being poured.

This would also tend to presuppose that the ratio of vodka sales to rum sales (as an example) varies dramatically from shift to shift in a predictable pattern. (eg: people only buy vodka from 2p-4p, but never buy rum during that time, and they only buy rum from 9p-1a, but never vodka.) I'm pretty sure that drink-ordering doesn't work that way.

Braineack 07-25-2013 02:48 PM

sounds like that's referring to an initial audit where they might be measuring after every shift, each day to provide initial stats.

yeah see, next sentence is: we'll then sit your staff down and out them as thieves.

miata2fast 07-25-2013 05:19 PM


Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack (Post 1036714)
sixshooter's compelling pitch sold you, huh? :D

It sounds like a living hell, but some people are drawn to that kind of life I guess. I know a few people in the business. Some are successful, and some are barely making it.


Originally Posted by Pinky (Post 1036747)
Right? I was initially filled with excitement and anticipation, then came the night of Fear and Crippling Doubt, and now I just feel a little queasy. :crx:

You never know, it might be a fun new adventure for you. I am sure you know the peril of trying something new. Only you will have that feeling whether it is a good idea or not. It definitely takes a certain kind of mindset to make that kind of investment.

Pinky 07-25-2013 08:54 PM


Originally Posted by miata2fast (Post 1036817)
It sounds like a living hell, but some people are drawn to that kind of life I guess. I know a few people in the business. Some are successful, and some are barely making it.


You never know, it might be a fun new adventure for you. I am sure you know the peril of trying something new. Only you will have that feeling whether it is a good idea or not. It definitely takes a certain kind of mindset to make that kind of investment.

For what it's worth, let me share this tidbit of knowledge; I literally bullshitted and tapdanced my way into ever-increasingly more high-level positions all throughout my career. I mean, positions for which I was completely unqualified and without the first clue about how to perform the tasks required. When I finally bailed on the corporate scene I had gotten from a union represented telemarketer to a management "third tier" regional pre-sales engineering gig dealing with huge voice and data networks. Straight-up "customer facing gotta know your shit" job. I literally knew nothing on Day 1 in any of my jobs, and by that I'm not talking like "how they do stuff here", I mean "I have utterly no knowledge of packet networks at all".

And in every case I rocked the job. Like I mentioned before, I have a weird knack for figuring stuff out really quickly. I'm pretty much dumb as a post in every other way, and completely ADD, but I have that one ability (lol, it's probably borderline Autism or something..) and it's served me well. I'm good on my feet, I'm an ISTP, off the charts, if you're familiar with Meyers Briggs profiles, and good in full crisis mode. Happiest, even. I think restauranting is right up my alley.

Tekel 03-14-2014 09:18 AM

Any update?

I have been formulating a restaurant business concept/plan and have made several connections that I plan to tap soon for everything from funding, to grants, to mentorship and am eager to hear how your venture is turning out.


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