I think we have a winner....although it's stated the EBC was removed when they went to the Hydra.

7/10
you missed an opportunity to evoke a "naughty by nature" reference.


If I were the average check-book hobbyist and bought a turbo kit from these guys, including hydra, for my westy, and had it dyno'd at a reasonable altitude and it only made 50whp less than the rest of them, I'd be pretty fucking pissed at this bullshit.

That's something I have to say I respect about Gary Shuhart/Track Dog Racing. Every car he touches makes the #'s he claims on his site, and he doesn't forum whore stuff like this.

Yeah I'm game.

We posted both the corrected and uncorrected charts to try to avoid this particular shitstorm, but it never works. Why do we still post corrected numbers? Mostly because it allows comparisons to historical runs. We post the uncorrected for those who prefer them. We acknowledge the problems with corrected charts on our website, but short of moving the shop to a lower altitude we're stuck with having to do something. Throwing all corrections out the window means we can make more horsepower simply by testing the cars in winter, and that's obviously not accurate or repeatable. Repeatable is important to us, and it's more important than the actual numbers as far as I'm concerned. Otherwise, how do you know if you're improving?

The interesting thing about these charts isn't the ultimate power number. It's the difference between the two ECUs. None of us here can explain why this particular car was able to respond so much better than the others to the Hydra, it's typically about a 35 rwhp increase. Jeremy did note that the car ate up all sorts of timing at the top end, which is obviously a source of big power gains. It's not just a Miata with a 3" downpipe, it's a custom setup from the turbo to the tailpipe so it's difficult to compare directly to a Miata engine in a Miata. The Hydra does seem able to run more advanced timing than the Link did, and over on Miata.net several Hydra owners have mentioned this.

Our turbo install at the Mitty pulled 238 on a Dynojet in Atlanta, and that was with a good margin of error. Jeremy could have raised that up somewhat I'm sure.

When we got our Rototest, we ran a number of the same cars that had been tested on the Dynojet and calibrated the test procedure to simulate a Dynojet run as best we could (2000-7000 rpm sweep in 15 seconds). That's typical for a 220-250 rwhp Miata, although the sweep should be shorter for a really high-power car in order to fully duplicate the Dynojet. We can't duplicate wheel slip, of course.

It's a shame there aren't more Rototests out there, although I fail to see how that's our fault! There are more than 2 in the US now, I know that. They don't work off hydraulic pressure, they use hydraulic pressure as the resistance and use strain gauges to measure the actual torque at the wheels. When we used to have a Dynojet, we copped a lot of abuse for using it too and we got the same sort of complaints. We've always been clear about what dyno we use - it's right there at the top of every dyno sheet we release.

There are no tweaks to the numbers to provide better results and we haven't screwed with the calibrations. The only thing we do is convert the units (the Rototest outputs in kW and Nm) and apply the SAE standard correction factor (when used).

It is interesting to note that we seem to get the same numbers (corrected) for stock Miatas and Mazdaspeeds that everyone else does. I'm not sure how to explain that. I am going to play with sweep time on the high-hp cars to see how much of a difference that makes, as we are seeing lower inertial losses than a Dynojet. Those with 300 hp Miatas on Dynojets, how long does it take to pull from 2000-7000 rpm?

in what gear?

EDIT: Paul's looks to be about 10 seconds. I don't know what gear, or what starting and ending rpm. He has the datalogs and can reply.

Video here, sounds like he goes WOT at 11 seconds into it and cuts the throttle at 21 seconds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67MQWgJWIg4


My 270rwhp is 14 & 13 seconds from 2100-7000, 10 sec for 2700-7200. I do not have anywhere near paul's spool. I used 4th gear, 3.90, 205/45/16 t1r
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VPloV9a-mE

.drf file shows 10 secs. 50-120mph

Sounds like 10 seconds is a reasonable number to use then. The next time we have a high-hp car on the dyno, I'll plug that in and see what a difference it makes. I assume that any dynoed car will be using the 1:1 gear, either 4th in a 5-speed or 5th in a 6-speed. The closed-loop resistance control on the Rototest can cause problems with spoolup on big turbos, but we'll deal with that if it comes up.

In theory, keeping the same sweep time will keep the inertial losses consistent regardless of power level. There's certainly some merit to that. But it's not what will happen on a Dynojet, so if we want to come up with Dynojet-like numbers we have to take that into account. It'll be interesting to see how this turns out - it would certainly explain why the lower-power cars are more consistent with other dynos.

I do know that when I was using the LINK default timing maps I was down a ton of power, I think I bumped it ten degress and saw a pretty large gain.

http://www.boostedmiata.com/timing/timingdyno.jpg

I should be hitting up another dyno in a few weeks. I'll only be in the 250rwhp range, but I'll try the LINK map again and see what the loss is.

We were using 7 seconds at the last dyno day I attended. I thought it was too short, and my car made only 235 whp, when the previous time on the same dyno it made 255 whp with less boost. I was going for ~275 whp with the boost and ignition improvements, and had I had the additional time, I'm sure I would have achieved my goal (or close enough).

The last car that pulled, on his last pull, we finally got the operator to agree to increase the sweep to 9 seconds. That car picked up around 25 whp on that run compared to the previous.

that was 4th gear on my 94 5 speed with a 3.90 diff and 215/45/15 tires

I would love to put every one of these cars down the 1/4 mile when I'm done tuning them- when it comes to dropping your drawers and grabbing the ruler that's something you can actually compare. (trap speed vs. ET)

Dyno results between different dynos on the other hand, not so much.. For me the dyno is simply a tuning tool to get the most out of any given car using its ability to consistently measure output.

So, I've considered just posting uncorrected numbers from now on because I'm tired of the whining. You won't be able to compare the runs to anything we've done in the past, though. I could say stuff like "It was cold out" or "it was hot out" and state the PSI in absolute pressure.

New thought. If I were to have always stated the pressure on the boost gauge, I think our correction factor would match up. However, I always have stated the absolute pressure along with the corrected HP numbers. Maybe that's the fuck up- it needs to be absolute with no correction, or gauge pressure (over ambient) with the correction. The issue there though would be that all our FM2 kits run 15 psi or so on the gauge up here, and then everyone at sea level would then decide it's OK to run 15 psi which is not so much OK. I don't know. It's a thought.

Fucking please. Is he a descendant of Jesus turning the car into wine?? I can't roll my eyes far enough at this comment.

I'll tell you what Hydra will do that Megasquirt wont; Drain your bank account of an extra $1200... Thats about it.

No, He is fucking Jesus... You better remember that, or you're not getting into heaven! Hell, he's even better than Jess was!

Mark

Come on man. What he means is that they don't know how competently the unit will be tuned and leave some fudge factor for that. There's some crappy tuners out there. And there's a lot of folks who simply run whatever base map they're given.

so you haven't researched the hydra much.

lets see what else it does that the MS doesn't:

-runs my turbo 01 before the megasquirt was PNP for an NB
-runs my VVT plug and play
-runs my AC plug and play
-runs my idle plug and play
-runs my stock coils plug and play
-runs sequential injection
-runs VTCS plug and play
-comes with functional launch control and all stock functions of the later cars except EGR
-comes with a wideband
-controls the NB alternator directly
-independent fan control
-built-in boost control
-half a dozen configurable PWM or switched outputs
-four spare inputs
-free support for life from FM

And I'm confident I could build a megasquirt in under a day, but it wouldn't support most of that without a lot of research and modding. I could install and have the hydra running in a day as well.

Jeremy is not jesus. He's paid to tune cars and anyone can learn how.

Fucking please indeed.

+1, pwnd, etc. Just because FM's dyno numbers are high doesn't mean the Hydra is a crap ECU; it's one of the most capable ECUs out there.

And to kick you while you're down, if you truly do feel that the Hydra is not a better EM solution than MS, then you are delusional.
MS is a much better value, but the Hydra hardware is tits.

<--MS dealer speaking

PS, the MS software is much better than Hydra's

I watched Y8s tune his Hydra on the dyno. I was thoroughly impressed. While the MS is cheap and robust, I'd love a hydra, but I'm a cheap asshole.

I agree Ben, the MS software is easier.

oh yeah the software for the hydra is pretty weak (at least up to 2.5) but the newer 2.6 looks to be a little more user friendly. they still lack decent logging though it's improved.

The tec 3 had very nice software though even that was buggy. maybe it's endemic to the whole automotive tuning genre, but all the software seems to have at least a few unforgivable quirks that I've run across. thank god though that we're still not tuning in DOS!

believe me though, if the MS could do most of what i listed the hydra does, I might jump ship just to be one of the cool kids and have more flexibility. regardless of cost.

Doesn't the hydra also support onboard data logging? Sorry if I missed that listed.

someone somewhere mentioned there's an onboard datalog feature but i'm dubious. especially since the hydra manual says the computer must be connected.

I love you y8s, but there is a bunch of shit on your list that my MSpnp could do (or is a non-issue like the WBO2) if my shit didn't live in a box. Of course, this only applies to NA cars. For an NB, Hydra makes much more sense, especially the price since you fags drive bloated poser rides and have tiny-girl legs that fit between the seat and the steering wheel. Maybe instead of hydra you guys should spend your money on a gym membership.

My experience with customer support from DIY can't possibly be inferior to FM's.

big-talk-stler, plug-n-play for you means letting it sit for 6 months and then having someone else do it.

so what are the specifics of the MSPNP that does what hydra does? I believe in DIY as a supplier. I've seen them on this forum. Oh and back when I bought my hydra it was only 1700 so it was only a thousand dollar difference to get something that... well... existed.

PS: I had to get a deep dish wheel to fit my massive quads. my legs kept hitting the steering wheel when I used the brakes. usain bolt was born in a test tube of my jizz.

Ding Ding Ding. We have a winner!

Still interested in more info on the "this car was an anomaly and we don't know why" from Keith regarding the 300hp car.

For FM I definetely understand wanting to avoid constantly having to defend yourself against all the forum fall out. What a pain in the butt but anyone in business with competitors has to do it to some extent, either in person or on forums.

Of course being in business I only expect FM to post the best numbers they can. If FM has a car that tests weaker than expected they aren't going to post it up to brag about it. It only makes sense to promote the successes. When you get far better than expected or seemingly imbrobable numbers from a certain car you should expect to have to defend them some.

boost control, AC, alternator is a non-issue, o2 sensor is simple, switched outputs...

There are a few things MSpnp won't do, but not that many.

/argument

alternator is not a non-issue in the later cars since it's not internally regulated.

I should work up a cost for all the piddly little BS that has to be done to make it work and then we can compare actual cost. lets assume my time is $40/hr plus cost of materials. $1000 comes up in 25 hours without material costs.

And I know you're the kind of guy who has only limited time on your hands because you're a busy mofo. And I know you also want the best bang for the buck because you're tracking the car and need reliability. But I've been down both roads. I ran a Tec3 and it was the opposite of plug and play. It was run-every-wire-and-pray.

For a pre-97 car, the Hydra doesn't offer any major advantages beyond sequential ignition, and I'm sure not paying $1k to fire my spark plugs individually. For a '99-00 car, it's debatable since you can get an MS that pretty much hooks straight up. For an '01 car, if you want VVT control, there's only one option.

injection, not ignition. both do sequential spark. MS doesn't squirt four times.

Put an early alternator on it!!!!!!!!!! (ok, better now) If we're talking about cutting checks instead of doing work, then you have a point...but that's no one here, maybe on our favorite forum, not this one. People who want to cut checks for shit like this should just buy a porsche, they have no business with these cars.

Your points are valid on NB cars, not NA cars, and now I've fucked myself into a syntax game and going to go back to espousing federal doctrine in bullshit meetings.
I ran Haltech on my VW and it was not only hope and pray, but also "well, fuck it, lets try it like this and maybe it will start." I'm not really that busy, natural disasters just keep fucking up my schedule...for the last 3-years.

This is going to kick my ass in the very near future. Source a used Hydra, or a Chad-MS? I guess the real decision will be whether or not I end up with a '99 or '01. '00 makes no sense and I won't be able to afford '02+.

I see guys on VVT cars w/Hydra and these huge sausage-fat torque curves and I mess my pants. Hydra makes less sense on a '99 but I also see what a little head-prep on a '99 will do for spool and top-end. Onboard wideband is one less thing to have to wire. It's a tough call.

In the end, I think I'll go with the Hydra unless the MS gurus make MSII idiot-proof or DIY releases a PnP. I've seen Hydra's used... just gotta be quick.

this ecu talk is fun and all.......but........howabout that heads up comparison test? when is that happening?

with hydra not offering much in the way of upgrade paths, used ones should be easy to find for decent prices.

I hope so. FM's DealofTheDay today was Elvis's former Hydra 2.1 for $1300. I won't need injectors, so that'll save some.

I don't see any reason to have to buy anything new if I've got this entire forum searching for me. Just about everything I'll need I've seen several of used in the various Miata-centric classifieds. The only things I've never seen used are the bad-ass Manifold/DP combos. I'm definitely in for an S4 or AbsurdFlow with a matching DP... but those don't pop up used all that often.

there's only like 3 or 4 absurd flow miata manifolds lol

so i take it you will not be getting the zoom3 or whatever its called from begi? i was a bit dissapointed to hear that it will only control up to 8psi and on stock injectors :mad:

wasn't paul just selling one for like $29.99 or somethin?

That's BEGI's line. If the ZOOM works it's magic like most piggybacks in it's class, the limiting factor is less in the piggyback and more in the stock ECU.

The stock ECU still does all of the work of creating the indiviual injector pulses and timing pulses. The piggyback modifies those stock signals. Typically, the piggyback does not have the ability to shorten injector pulse length at idle RPMS. So if you throw a big injector in there, you get a huge amount of fuel at idle and it won't idle. If that's the case, then a 330cc injector is probably the upper limit. You might get as much as 10-11psi depending on the turbo you're running.
I think there'll be people getting 230whp... maybe 240whp with a big exhaust. I know I've seen a '97 w/Voodoo and Bipes hit 210whp on a 2560. With the additional timing control of the ZOOM3 and a slightly more efficient turbo... who knows what's possible on a '99.

I'll be dedicating a BIG thread to my upcoming NB project. I'd love a super-efficient tubular manifold... the S4 is seXx, but bragging rights for owning something called Absurdflow is too much to overlook. We'll see what the cost vs. benefits are when the time comes.

yeah, well Im planning something similar: lean towards the zoom till ms pnp is available or I find a used hydra for cheap or something like that.

looking forward to your future project, who knows: you might beat me to a turbo nb. :D

two and a half actually. hehe

When I finally get out of this condo and into my new house I'll be able to start cranking them out, hopefully mid november. Maybe even do a Jig for the DP and exhaust. ha that'd be the day. I did get two 220VAC 50amp outlets installed in the garage :)

[QUOTE=samnavy;300015]... who knows what's possible on a '99.QUOTE]

is there any difference between the 99 and 00

[quote=swimming108;300397]One is a year newer than the other. That's about it.

i better get my absurd flow DP then tim lol 3" with metal core cat of course

anyone notice this thread is broken when you click on the last page? It currently is showing up for me as page 5 but there is a page 6. when I click on it, it comes back to the top of 5. wtf.

edit: even weirder: this post showed up immediately and was still on page 5 of 6. brokes!

Someone is on universal ignore methinks.

One should always look at the torque per atmo per liter:

Torque / displacement (in L) / (boost+14.7) * 14.7

OR

Torque / displacement / kPa * 101

This number can NEVER go above about 72 ft-lbs per liter per atmosphere (without nitrous). (These are dynojet numbers). This calculation BTW is the same as BMEPper atmosphere (look up BMEP). BMEP is directly proportional to this number.

BTW a number that's close to 72 is a very well tuned setup. This applies to miatas, NA, FI, BMW, NASCAR, F1.

Applying this to FM's numbers, they got 83, which means the correction factor is screwed up. Assuming it's well tuned and they got 71, it means the numbers are 17% high. Applying this "reverse correction factor" to 300 hp, it means they got 255 hp from 11 psi. 8 years ago, Shiv and Scoots got 240 hp from 8 psi at sea level from a GT2560 and the old FM manifold, so it's believable.


BTW the gain is not so much a testament to the Hydra's prowess, but the Link's weakness - and the old numbers were probably screwed up. Probably a combo of bad tuning, and different conditions / dyno correction factors.

No real surprises.

BTW the new numbers are with a crank trigger?

Cam trigger in both cases on the car in question.

Yeah I noticed that too. Strange.

Dude, go into USER CP then EDIT OPTIONS... change your "posts per page" to 60.
*KAPLOWIE* This thread just turned 2 pages long.

You wanna do that with my setup? I've got nothing but time and have an extra 2 cars so whatever works for you.

that'd be like curing racism by stabbing everyone's eyes out.

And it wouldn't be a cure. If he's posted the 61st post in a thread. Nuke 'em from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

There's an idea. I'll add another on the mob site. I am not sure of your time frame, especially with Paul MIA.

Are you using '94-97 axles or the newer one piece 99+?

Ill PM you on the mob as to not hijack this thread anymore. But in short, I dont have a time frame for any of it and I have 94-97 axles. The only thing I changed powertrain wise was the 99 head.

And Paul being MIA really doesn't help me much. Guess I'm flyin solo for installing the rest. Fingers are crossed.

ill help you out artie

...And there exists just ONE absurdflow separated downpipe! ALL MINE heh heh heh muuuuaahhhhhh