Picking a new truck
 

Found out a couple months ago that we are going to have a 4th kid, so I am using this as an excuse to get a truck. Front bench FTW! I'd want this to also serve as my tow vehicle, and I plan to get a 20' or 24' enclosed trailer for the Miata in the future. I think I've decided on what I want, but before I pull the trigger on anything I figured I'd open myself up to the MT.net brain trust.

The truck I'm thinking of going for is an F150 XLT SuperCrew, 6.5' bed, Max Tow, AND the Heavy Duty Payload Package. The combo of the Max Tow and the HDPP is not common, I'd need to order. The need for a truck isn't immediate, so I am okay with the wait knowing that it will be longer than usual given the factory shutdown. Why the unique combo? When I did the math on payload, considering tongue weight, 6 passengers, and random crap that 4 kids in a vehicle would need, the standard payload F150 would be marginal. The HDPP adds at least another 400 pounds of payload: enough to give me some headroom for not loading the trailer perfectly etc. The biggest downside (other than having to order) is that this limits the options I can have on the truck. Only thing I'd be giving up that I care about is heated seats, which can be added later.

Why not just get a SuperDuty? Fuel efficiency, primarily. A gas SD would be another $1,000 a year in fuel at current prices. Also, the purchase price would be higher as the incentives on SD trucks are lower to non-existent.

So, is there anything I'm missing in my thought pattern?

EDIT: Okay, you guys convinced me, 3/4 or 1 ton or bust!

Are you opposed to a diesel superduty? Not sure about your gas prices but diesel is roughly 40 cents cheaper than gas and i average 23hwy and 18city vs my 10 in a gas truck

Then towing/hauling with a diesel will be much better than any gas setup.

There are currently deals where Ford covers 3 months of payments and defers you making payments for 3 months.

Dealers are going to fight you to buy something in their inventory over ordering, especially with a nebulous factory production timeline.

If you wait until the last few days of NEXT month or the following one, after the virus has destroyed society and torpedoed their sales and the personal economies of many buyers, you will get the deal of a lifetime on anything in stock at the dealership.

Also, do you NEED a truck bed? Given all the kids, Consider a full size body on frame SUV

A 24ft enclosed is a good bit of trailer... unless you're shopping aluminum trailers, you're talking 4k lbs empty. Add a Miata, tools, tires, track stuff... 7k loaded is easy. Still well under the new 1/2 ton trucks' ratings, but add in hills and wind and a full cabin and I'd take a serious look at 3/4 ton trucks.

$1000 a year in fuel is like $85/month. Is the extra stability and capability (brakes and suspension) worth it? With your whole family loaded up? Only you can answer that.

Another factor that I rarely see discussed is fatigue. Towing with enough truck is easy and relaxed. Towing with too little truck is stressful and fatiguing. I'd rather arrive at the track fresh and ready to rock, and arrive home without being wiped out.

Buying a truck off a lot today might yield a great deal... lots of uncertainty for the future, but if the panic holds, the end of April could be an even better time to buy. If you hold out to order something, you probably won't see it until end of Summer at least.

YMMV.

Diesel is cheaper than gas by you?

On the east coast, diesel is same price as premium gas and 60 cents over regular gas. Thus negating most savings in diesel mpg vs gas

Thanks for the thoughts so far!

I did initially consider a BOF SUV like the Suburban or Expedition, but as Roda pointed out a 24' trailer is a pretty big load. The Expedition has the towing capacity to handle it per the spec sheet, but payload is again a concern. They are also significantly more expensive than pickups. If we are just going on a family trip (no trailer) then we have our minivan, and the open bed is useful for all sorts of things.

Waiting until next month is certainly an option, one that I'll probably take given the circumstances. I'm not anticipating any loss of income from the current economic upheaval, so I will still be in a good spot a month from now.

Re: diesel. Obviously there is a significant upcharge for the diesel engine. Diesel is also about $0.60/gallon more than gas around here. My commute is pretty short most days, which I've heard is murder on diesels on top of the existing maintenance nightmare that is the modern diesel emissions system. If I was going to be doing a ton of towing or hauling a fifth-wheel the equation might be different, but from what I've seen it sounds like gas is the best choice. Again though, I'm open to being convinced otherwise!

Didn't realize you also had a minivan in the fleet. in that case a pickup makes perfect sense as long as it wont be the primary kid hauler.

Yeah, probably should have mentioned that. Still want 6 seating positions for when the van is in the shop, or if we go to a longer-distance track day as a family. Suppose we could take two vehicles in that case too, but rather plan for a full load and not need it than get in a situation where we would be overloaded.

Ford trucks with Max Tow and HDDP had 7 lug wheels/hubs at one time. I don't know if the new ones are like this.
Brake and wheel parts are significantly more expensive and you have fewer choices in aftermarket.
May not matter to you. Just something I noticed in my repair business.

In your position, I would be taking a hard look at an F250 with the new 7.3 gas engine.

Don't tempt me! :nono:

If they made a plug-in hybrid SuperDuty so my commute gas usage wouldn't suck, that would pretty much be ideal. My wants/need are on the high end of the 1/2-ton, but the mileage penalty associated with the HD trucks gives me pause. Gas is cheap now, but who knows what it will be in the future. I remember when gas shot up to nearly $5/gallon and 20 year old Geo Metros were selling for $10k, good times.

Many companies have switched away from diesels for work trucks because of ten years of emissions systems experience (read expensive problems) in diesels. Loaded fuel economy hit is often offset by the cost difference in engines plus expensive repairs.

Gas here is $1.28 lol.
I have friends that are high on the chain at the ford truck plant. They're still scheduled to head back to work on the 13th. I'd still wait.
Also, the new Ford 7.3l gasser is a BEAST.

Now i'd have to say that i wouldn't even be worried tugging 7k with a 5.3 or an ecoboost if it has the 10 speed. That transmission is a game changer.

Also, you'll see a hybrid & electric pickup before long.

Do you still have emissions in Oregon? I know here in WA we just got rid of all emissions this year?

You will regret buying a 1/2 ton truck to tow a 24ft enclosed trailer.

Bro, no judgement, I get it... but appears as though you've made up your mind and are looking for validation. You will regret buying an F-150 for this application.

HINT: The literal bottom ass end of the oil industry just fell off after a decent 4yr run. When I say "THE BOTTOM", I'm talking about guys who were multi-millionaires a month ago trying to figure out how to feed their kids. Futures were looking good and people were starting to make asshole amounts of cash again after the 2015 shit-show. The coronavirus just fucked everything up, and lots of bubbas just went tits-up broke as fuck overnight.

Their loss, however... look for a massive selloff of later-model diesel pickups in TX/NM/OK in the coming months. Nothing wrong with a 6.7 Powerstroke... 2015 or later King Ranch would be an alpha-bro move.

Personally, after spending the past 2 years here on Kauai with a neighbor with a flatbed, I'm sold. No more regular-bed trucks for this guy. A custom wood and steel flatbed with removable rails and plenty of tiedowns is the way to go. Sooooo much more user friendly and way less give-a-shit about how you treat it.

Well, you guys (and others) convinced me. I'll start searching for a SuperDuty.

It will be interesting to see what Ford does for Q2 incentives: on one hand sales are way down. On the other, they aren't building anything either. Haven't heard whether the automakers are making any adjustments to their floor plan financing to assist dealers, might have some desperate dealers in a few weeks.

Dont know if your sold on fords but I really enjoy my diesel ram 2500

not to sound like a broken record, but to agree with those above..

IF mind is set on that type of payload and towing capacity needed with a trailer that size, I'd be heading down the SD path and not looking back. The 6.7 SD is a fantastic truck. Pay to play like anything else, and while towing with a SD you will have zero regrets about your decision. Money you spend up front for the diesel, you will get back when it comes to resale.

IF willing to go down to a smaller trailer, I'd consider a half ton. This is the bucket I fall into currently. I tow so infrequently, maybe 3-4 times per year, and when I do its a small open trailer for the miata usually. The upfront cost, maintenance, and fuel savings over the diesel option has led me to be really happy with my 2018 Silverado 1500 so far. If I ever get to the point where towing more frequently or heavier becomes a thing, I'd be trading in for a diesel without question.

You'll be much happier... plus, will need to step up to Magnum condoms with a 3/4-ton.

Honestly, if you can afford it, get the diesel 3/4 ton.

I would have bought one but they are WAY more expensive. Anything in my price range was 10 years old. Getting a loan on a 10+ year old truck is out of the question for me because of interest rates.

Personal loan, then transfer to a 0% rate credit card. Hammer the payments for 18 months, then transfer again.

A personal loan is kind of nice given the current climate if something bad were to happen.

I suppose, now i have enough as collateral in savings to make it happen.

Could I afford a diesel? Sure. But I certainly won't need it. Also future maintenance costs are scary, and $10k buys a whole lot of gas.

As for whether I'm sold on Ford: no, not necessarily. I am a little wary to spend $55k+ on a FCA product though.

Once we found out kid #4 was inbound, certain measures were taken....

Chevy express 3500 passenger van with 6.0ltr ls? 9k towing cap but its possible to max out gvwr of 14k with 4 rows of seats.

Not a Mormon.

Which is why you get a Duramax with an Allison.

:party:

So followup question: I'm assuming the only reason to go with a 3/4-ton over a 1-ton is registration requirements right? Oregon, as far as I know, does not require any additional registration fees as long as the GCWR is 26k lbs or under, which the SRW gas trucks should be under.

I personally like the 2500 variation because i can still haul anything i want without having the stiff ride of the 3500. The 3500 is great but un loaded the can ride a little rougher than the 2500.

It depends on the MFG big time. The only difference between a 2500 and a 3500SRW Silverado is the rear overload springs and nothing else. The difference between an F250 and an F350 SRW is enormous (I-beam vs solid front axle).

3500 SRWs are better as long as there's no legal downside to owning one in your state. Some states have licensing or weigh station requirements that change at 10k GVWR. Most 2500s are under that, all 3500s are over that.

What? Ford hasn't put anything other than a solid axle in the front of an f250 since 97. Since the introduction of the super duty trucks in 99 they have only had very minor differences between the f250 and f350. The primary difference is spring packages just like GM.

Interesting, even the RWD trucks? I could have sworn the 3/4 ton versions were still using that twin I-beam design deep into the 2000s.

Or maybe I'm thinking of the Dodges - I know the RWD Dodges are IRS, but the 4wd trucks are solid axle.

Obviously if it's not 4WD there won't be a solid axle. RWD trucks do use a twin I-beam front suspension but it's the same for F250 and F350.

How frequently will you be towing a 24' trailer? And how far?

There is still wayyy too much "go oversize or go home" mentality in the truck world - lots of guys drive 3/4 or 1 ton trucks when a half-ton would be perfectly adequate for them, and they are convinced that anyone who hauls with a smaller truck is an idiot - and they are very vocal in telling the world that.

A half-ton truck is a passenger vehicle, a 3/4 ton or 1 ton truck is a "truck" - what does that mean? the 3/4 and 1 ton vehicles are designed around hauling and towing first and passengers second - you'll not want to take the truck anywhere unless your utility needs necessitate taking the truck; it a relatively uncomfortable ride and getting in/out tends to be extremely inconvenient for anyone shorter than about 6' - running boards are always an option. If you buy the half-ton, you are getting a passenger vehicle which is comfortable, a bit more nimble, and which your family of 6 will frequently desire to take over the minivan/whatever else you have, but you really start to take the hit in payload capacity as noted by the manufacturers. As far as towing capacity, the manufacturer looks at hills, wind, traffic, braking, etc., but you do run the risk of tongue weight causing an issue (because tongue weight is placed on the rear axle of the truck and is therefore factored into your payload capacity).

In Ohio, there's no legal limit to how much you can tow (exceeding towing capacity isn't an offense), just don't exceed the weight ratings that turn you into a commercial vehicle or the axle ratings that determine safe operating conditions (again, payload capacity is a function of allowable axle weight)

If the half-ton meets your weight requirements and you won't be frequently pulling (moderate distances a few times a year or short distances a couple times per month), then it probably doesn't make sense to step up to an actual truck, and your family will get more use out of the pickup. If you do need to use it to tow frequently and long distance, then buy a real truck but accept that it will probably be hauling the family less often than you imagine.

I've got a Tundra, and I do occasionally tow at or beyond the rated towing capacity with properly distributed weight; you can get back a lot of your safety by driving appropriately. I'm happy to drive 50-55 on an open freeway at towing capacity while the 3/4 ton pickups are doing 80 with the same load, I just don't tow frequently or far enough to justify the costs of pushing the speed limit when I do.

There will be someone on here who wants to rip me or tell me that I'm unsafe and that someone is going to sue me when I run in to them and it's going to cost me millions of dollars - those are the same bro-dozers from line 2 of this post who will tell you it's unsafe to tow a pop-up camper with anything less than an F-450.

I will simply observe that you live in Ohio, where the highest point is 1500 feet, while dleavitt lives in Oregon, where the highest point is 11,500 feet.

"It's different".

As for truck recommendations, the Chevy dealer around the corner from me currently has advertised prices $10K below MSRP on brand-new 2020 Duramax Silverados. That's what I'd be looking at if I wanted a new truck.

--Ian

Hold my beer...

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...01755bbdf4.jpg

Unsafe is subjective so I won't say that, but if you willingly and intentionally tow a trailer which is beyond the MFG's stated rating for you truck, and you are involved in an an accident (regardless of fault or cause), and the other party in said accident sues you, and it is determined at trial that you truck was loaded beyond MFG's stated rating, your auto insurance will deny your liability claim. That chain of events, factually and objectively, has the potential to cost you literally millions of dollars. If you've never had the pleasure of defending yourself against such a claim, I don't recommend it. It will cost you ~$100k in legal fees before you even begin to pay off the settlement and/or your bankruptcy attorney's fees.

I don't own an F450 and my current trailer absorbs roughly 90% of my SUV's tow capacity, but I have towed some pretty sizeable rigs over the years and I've always paid a lot of attention to hitch capacity, GVWR, GCWR, and rear GAWR. Those four, along with tire ratings, are the five things you absolutely must pay attention to, IMO.

Well played, sir.

When we purchased, my wife wanted a bumper sticker that said "My truck can pull the space shuttle" - Dealer said he was fresh out... :-P

Thanks for the input everyone! Based on what I see available on the lots at the moment, it doesn't look like my "ideal" truck is out there in the wild right now. Not terribly surprising, can't imagine too many people wanting a cloth bench seat also springing for such niceties as the 360 degree camera system. That being the case, I'll probably end up ordering a truck. Obviously there is no rush to do so as nobody is building anything at the moment, so that gives me more time to (over)think about my options.

I will admit, I am a little biased towards Ford. I've only had two trucks, and they were both Fords. As such, the Ford F250/350 is my "baseline" truck:

Pros:
-7.3 gas engine is a beast
-Popular with fleets, which indicates a lower Total Cost of Ownership
-Rear Crew Cab floor is flat
-Front-middle seat has a headrest and shoulder belt
-360 camera is available on all trim levels (I'd go with the XLT)
-Made in 'Merica (by robots)

Cons:
-I've read that Chevy and Ram have a better turning radius
-Increased propensity for Death Wobble?
-Probably the least incentivized

Ram (haven't driven one):

Pros:
-Better equipped for a given MSRP
-Adaptive Cruise is available on the lower trim levels
-LED headlamps available on lower trims
-Nicest interior (or so I've heard)
-Often more generous incentives

Neutral:
-6.4 is proven, but not as powerful as the Ford 7.3

Cons:
-Rear floor not flat
-rear bench has a "knotch" for the middle seat, so less thigh support
-Hecho en Mexico
-Still have concerns about FCA reliability

Chevy I think is not a contender for me. Can't get the 360 degree camera until you spring for the LTZ, and has a face that even their mother would have trouble loving. Am I off base on my Ram reliability concerns?

:shrug: I know people with both that are happy.

Yeah, god the Chevy are ugly as sin... It's a shame. Thankfully the GMCs still look good.

And honestly, you're going to have pros and cons for all of them. It's not up to us, pick what works for YOU.

That's really what it comes down to...

I was always a Ford guy, but prefer the Cummins to the current Ford diesels, so I have a RAM. All three dealers in my area SUCK, so that wasn't really a factor.

Diesel is significantly more than gas here so, results may vary.

He dropped off his car at my shop with the new truck, although I never saw it, what are the deets Don??

Some unfortunate changes in circumstances mean I no longer had a need to carry 6 people at once, which meant my current Mazda6 remained sufficient for daily driving duties. Still, I wanted something nicer than my beater Excursion to tow with so I decided to look for a pickup to replace it. Ended up with a 2003 Silverado 2500HD with the 8.1 and 5-speed Allison transmission. Other than the paint being crap, the truck was in pretty great shape. Loaded from the factory, has leather, heated seats, rear seat DVD player. PO added air bags with an on-board pump, and kept a pile of receipts for maintenance and such.

The one thing I'll need to think about is range: the 8.1 likes gas. A lot. And because the truck is a crew cab short bed, the fuel tank is only 26 gallons. That means lots of gas stops if I'm going any sort of distance, and may not always have the choice to select a station that could easily accommodate a pickup towing a 30-foot trailer (which I also have now). The easy solution to that is to keep fuel jugs in the trailer: if I can't pull in to the station I fill up from the jugs and get them refilled before putting them back. Also toying with the idea of getting an auxiliary tank for the bed of the truck, but that is significantly more expensive.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...c886175c7d.jpg

There are also companies who make extended range tanks that replace the stock tank and so don't take up any bed space. At least there are for diesels, I don't know that I've ever seen one for a gas truck.

--Ian

That was the problem I was running in to. Guess there are additional regulations for gasoline vs. diesel tanks since gas is more volatile. One nice thing about some of the in-bed tanks is they come with hoses and a pump so I can fill with premium and fill up the Miata at the track from the same tank and not mess with jugs at all. In all likelihood I'm probably going to go the jug route, the transfer tanks I was seeing online were $1,500+, and that buys an awful lot of fuel jugs.

Mine was made by Titan... not sure if they make tanks for gas trucks, but it's been one of the best mods I've done for our truck. 55 gal vs. the stock tank at 32...

Yeah, I have been eyeing the Titan 50+ gallon tank for my LBZ for a while -- a 24 gallon tank doesn't go very far even with a diesel when you're dragging an enclosed trailer through the air at 65 mph.

--Ian

If this means what I think it means, I am sorry to hear this.

Yeah, June sucked.

We get 8-10mpg with the camper loaded and pulling the trailer, depending on wind and grade, so the Titan nearly doubled my effective range. And it's really not the range, 'cause the wife usually has to pee every couple hundred miles anyway, but the flexibility in deciding where/when to stop, and every stop doesn't have to be a fuel stop.

Just because I love this pic... :p
https://live.staticflickr.com/1759/4...d59fda81_c.jpg

My trailer is tall, about a foot taller than your typical TPD, and my average fuel economy when doing 65 mph is about 8.5-9 even with the diesel. I didn't realize how big a difference that height made -- next time I buy a trailer I'll take it into consideration.

One trip to Thunderhill (~ 180 miles) the truck wasn't quite topped up when I left because I'd had to go pick up the car beforehand. That was the day of the big Paradise fire in California and there were some wicked headwinds blowing down the 5. I got something like 7.5 mpg, and had to stop 3 miles short of Willows to fill the truck because I wasn't sure it was going to make it. Put over 24 gallons into a tank that's nominally 24.5...

--Ian