A question on faith
10-21-2009, 02:00 PM
#61
I personally don't drink anyone's kool-aid. I mix my own and I don't share it.
I find it interesting that a person will attribute some personal event to god's will, or his guiding hand. Yet when something evil happens (9/11), it isn't god's plan but the dirty bastards from the middle east who brought that attrocity down on the good people in the name of their false god.
Nice. I don't think it can work both ways. Either god is controlling things or he's not. I have no faith, belief but not faith. I don't pretend to understand why things happen in the universe the way they do. I know that things happen, but I'm not naive or egotistical enough to presume to understand the idea of divine will and intervention. So I can't just go on faith that everything happens for a reason. And the idea that god intervenes on an individual basis is against the whole idea of free will, which according to most people with religious faith is the key gift their god gave them.
However I think having faith is awesome! It's an amazingly powerful tool to have and has the potential to serve people well through their lives. Unfortunately people are generally the ones who **** this whole thing up. Killing in the name of ....
All I can say is that having LDS neighbors rocks! The nicest people in the universe and they don't outwardly judge me or push their dogma.
/threadjack
I find it interesting that a person will attribute some personal event to god's will, or his guiding hand. Yet when something evil happens (9/11), it isn't god's plan but the dirty bastards from the middle east who brought that attrocity down on the good people in the name of their false god.
Nice. I don't think it can work both ways. Either god is controlling things or he's not. I have no faith, belief but not faith. I don't pretend to understand why things happen in the universe the way they do. I know that things happen, but I'm not naive or egotistical enough to presume to understand the idea of divine will and intervention. So I can't just go on faith that everything happens for a reason. And the idea that god intervenes on an individual basis is against the whole idea of free will, which according to most people with religious faith is the key gift their god gave them.
However I think having faith is awesome! It's an amazingly powerful tool to have and has the potential to serve people well through their lives. Unfortunately people are generally the ones who **** this whole thing up. Killing in the name of ....
All I can say is that having LDS neighbors rocks! The nicest people in the universe and they don't outwardly judge me or push their dogma.
/threadjack
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10-21-2009, 02:19 PM
#62
I had a girlfriend in HS that was LDS (as were her family). Her father beat the **** out of all of them, the brother was a pot head, and she was pregnant within a year of us breaking up. They all went to church on Sunday morning and Wednesday night. Yep, good people...
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10-21-2009, 02:22 PM
#63
I'd never say that a person's behavior is bound by the god they pray to. Good and bad everywhere.
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10-21-2009, 02:31 PM
#64
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God gives us choices, some choose poorly and it shows in their lives. And I know that not all LDS people are good, but most do try to live good lives through their faith.
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10-21-2009, 02:33 PM
#65
The reason why I said in the very beginning that this subject is a very touchy one is that:
NO ONE WILL CHANGE ANY ONE ELSE'S MIND! PERIOD
The theists will continue to not believe and the christians will continue to believe.
So NA6C don't let anyone sway you in either direction. Find out for yourself.
That void will not just go away. You will always have it, no matter what. As someone already said: we were designed that way.
You can fill it with bad, or good. I suggest trying the good first
PS: and just so we're clear: just because you believe in God and try to serve his will by being good to others and treating them the way you want to be treated doesn't mean you have to become one of those crazy people that goes to extremes, or joins a sect or cult. That's bullshit.
NO ONE WILL CHANGE ANY ONE ELSE'S MIND! PERIOD
The theists will continue to not believe and the christians will continue to believe.
So NA6C don't let anyone sway you in either direction. Find out for yourself.
That void will not just go away. You will always have it, no matter what. As someone already said: we were designed that way.
You can fill it with bad, or good. I suggest trying the good first
PS: and just so we're clear: just because you believe in God and try to serve his will by being good to others and treating them the way you want to be treated doesn't mean you have to become one of those crazy people that goes to extremes, or joins a sect or cult. That's bullshit.
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10-21-2009, 02:34 PM
#66
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MY LDS neighbors rock. YMMV. I didn't mean to imply that all LDS people are good. Mine just happen to practice what they preach, in terms of being good community minded people.
I'd never say that a person's behavior is bound by the god they pray to. Good and bad everywhere.
I'd never say that a person's behavior is bound by the god they pray to. Good and bad everywhere.
Also, ask them how they feel about the 1970 judgment against the LDS church where in order to maintain tax free status, they were required to let black people in their church.
Lets also not forget Bob Jones University...the Christian fundamentalist founded college who was also required to let non-Caucasian ethnicities in the school backed by another court derived decision.
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10-21-2009, 02:34 PM
#67
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He became so powerful, the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power. Which, eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep. Ironic. He could save others from death, but not himself.
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10-21-2009, 02:41 PM
#69
To what end? Who cares. They are nice and respectful and likely won't raise kids that will steal the wheels off my car.
Ask them which planet they get to inherit in the afterlife.
Also, ask them how they feel about the 1970 judgment against the LDS church where in order to maintain tax free status, they were required to let black people in their church.
Lets also not forget Bob Jones University...the Christian fundamentalist founded college who was also required to let non-Caucasian ethnicities in the school backed by another court derived decision.
Also, ask them how they feel about the 1970 judgment against the LDS church where in order to maintain tax free status, they were required to let black people in their church.
Lets also not forget Bob Jones University...the Christian fundamentalist founded college who was also required to let non-Caucasian ethnicities in the school backed by another court derived decision.
Last edited by jayc72; 10-21-2009 at 02:56 PM.
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10-21-2009, 02:54 PM
#71
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Good point though. Although i think they're morons for their racial, social role, and space-ship crap I agree that I'd rather have them living around me than "unknown." Every Mormon I've met was respectful and seemed to live by the standards proclaimed by their church and I respect that far more than any popular religious robot I've encountered in my life.
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10-21-2009, 02:56 PM
#73
Good point though. Although i think they're morons for their racial, social role, and space-ship crap I agree that I'd rather have them living around me than "unknown." Every Mormon I've met was respectful and seemed to live by the standards proclaimed by their church and I respect that far more than any popular religious robot I've encountered in my life.
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10-21-2009, 03:11 PM
#74
I normally don't share much on this subject. I served as a tank commander in Vietnam and on March 26 1969 i was blown out of my turret by a enemy RPG rocket, I fell some twenty feet to the jungle floor and died. I went through a light tunnel,was met by dozens of people dressed in white and felt as if i was wrapped in a blanket of love. My parents arrived but were now only in their late twenties themselves. Then I heard a voice and I knew who it must be, it was warm and welcoming. It asked, "Jack are you ready to come to me?" I felt as if I wanted to stay so much but i sputtered out, "Hell no, I'm only twenty years old!" Instantly I awoke to two Medics beating on my chest. To this day sometimes I wish I had stayed but after being shot twice in the war, COPD and a quad by-pass last year I knew there's still a reason I'm here. And I don't believe in God as most folks do, I believe there's one superior being that is for all people alike.
I'm intrigued, I never thought people actually had experiences like that. I've always thought it was just a poor writing mechanism.
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10-21-2009, 03:14 PM
#75
I'm Miserable!
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Although I do run into a few who are weird and eccentric, living in Utah isn't too bad most days. Funny thing is, that although I was raised Mormon and try to go to church as much as possible, I said I would never move to Utah, yet moved here 3 years ago. Having a decent drag strip and a world-class track at Miller Motorsports Park less than 45 minutes away helps as well. And then there is the skiing. Okay, back on topic....
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10-21-2009, 03:32 PM
#76
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As far as stoning of non-Christians, the bible also says you should be stoned to death for working on Sunday. It will be interesting when we start that practice again. Wonder what would happen if you used that in court as an excuse for murder. I'm currently serving (have almost finished up my first year - hopefully will not have to serve the second year) on my county's grand jury. They make it quite a big deal if you put the wrong hand on the bible when they swear you in. I doubt they would agree if people actually started following what it says in that book.
I don't mean to get too detailed in the subject, but there were different dispensations (dispensing of law) for different groups of people during different periods in history for different situations. Much of the New Testament is directed to this current era in history and to the current rules. Jesus and the new law had been foretold in the Old Testament.
Here's something somebody wrote about the different dispensations that I just found. I didn't read it all, so I don't know anything about his opinions, but it outlines the time periods to give you an idea. If anyone cares
I'm by no means a biblical scholar, but bear with this example. As a kid, my dad told me in the spring that he expected me to cut the grass every Saturday morning from now on before leaving the house to go play. I knew in the fall when there was eight inches of snow on the ground that the rules had to change with the circumstances. When asked, my father would be moderately likely to agree.
Maybe not an excellent example, but you aren't paying me very much for my time, either.
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10-21-2009, 03:36 PM
#77
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I think I would be more accepting to Christianity if they would update their **** so that it actually made sense in the 21st century. I understand a lot of it is universal, but also a lot of it doesn't work in the modern world. Same goes for our constitution, but thats another can of worms. Something that inflexible just doesn't make sense over time.
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10-21-2009, 03:50 PM
#79
You know this thread was going OK. Toddcod and Zoomin jump in with very religious statements, preachy, mention healing, etc and the whole tone of the thread changed. Suddenly the haters come out to balance and counterpoint those statements. Unfortunately where religion is involved any counterpoints can only be seen as insulting.
Again, seeing Toddcod & Zoomin's statements have only reinforced my belief it is OK to have faith but the dogma and trappings of organized religion sucks.
Politics and religion are both futile to discuss on an open forum like this. No minds will be changed, people only dig in harder.
Again, seeing Toddcod & Zoomin's statements have only reinforced my belief it is OK to have faith but the dogma and trappings of organized religion sucks.
Politics and religion are both futile to discuss on an open forum like this. No minds will be changed, people only dig in harder.
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10-21-2009, 04:16 PM
#80
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back to the original post on having faith....
faith and belief are not the same. the difference is that a belief is not something you question. and faith is convincing yourself that a circumstance is true regardless of all other evidence.
belief:
when I jump off the curb, I will land safely because I understand gravity and am familir with falling 6 inches.
if I stab myself with a tack, it will hurt because my pain receptors function normally.
faith:
when I jump out of a plane, I will land safely because .X
if I stab myself with a tack, it will not hurt because Y.
the question is what you put your faith (or trust) in. parachutes, god, anaesthesia, the altitude of the plane being low enough, etc.
One of the frequent questions about faith that comes up is:
are you comfortable accepting the unknown?
OR
do you need an answer, no matter how esoteric?
Is it relevant to your existence how the universe was created?
can you distinguish between extremely rare coincidence and a miracle?
faith and belief are not the same. the difference is that a belief is not something you question. and faith is convincing yourself that a circumstance is true regardless of all other evidence.
belief:
when I jump off the curb, I will land safely because I understand gravity and am familir with falling 6 inches.
if I stab myself with a tack, it will hurt because my pain receptors function normally.
faith:
when I jump out of a plane, I will land safely because .X
if I stab myself with a tack, it will not hurt because Y.
the question is what you put your faith (or trust) in. parachutes, god, anaesthesia, the altitude of the plane being low enough, etc.
One of the frequent questions about faith that comes up is:
are you comfortable accepting the unknown?
OR
do you need an answer, no matter how esoteric?
Is it relevant to your existence how the universe was created?
can you distinguish between extremely rare coincidence and a miracle?
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