Rollbar review
 

Hi guys- still searching IMpatiently, found the perfect car on Ebay but wife forbid me to buy something without driving it first:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/95-Ma...QQcmdZViewItem

Anyway, I wasted much time today looking into rollbars. Here's what I think I found out:
Boss Frog = $$$
Hard Dog = good people and lots of options
Autopower = not as cheap as I thought it would be; a $200 bar quickly grows to $400 when you had a harness bar and diagonal.

BF says harness tabs aren't needed, just run the harness around the bar; HD says you do need it, but their harness tab just looks like an eyelet right next to the bar. I can easily add my own real harness bar if a real bar is preferable.

Hard top, soft top, plastic, glass windows all contribute confusion. It looks like the best way to go is either the HDS with harness tab and diagonal ($385) or the HDHCHT at $425; the additional rearward room would come in handy on the street, and a real harness bar would be better than a "tab".

I was initially planning to get a four point that could be upgraded with a weld- or bolt-in cage, but it looks like that really isn't practical; SM cages and rollbars are really different animals.

So, the downside is a rollbar for HPDE is going to be more pricey (unless I can find one used); the upside is I don't really need to be too concerned with an SM spec cage any time soon.

Sound about right? Anything you guys would like to add? Trying to get all smart before I find the car.... gives me something to do other than search for a car (and search and search and search... Gawd I'm sick.):gay:

Hard Dog is coming out with a new bar soon called the Brainless one which is essentially a copy of the old now defunct Brainstorm Racing bar. It's supposed to have the most room for hardtops, glass windows and the like.

get the HDHCHT, I have double diags. and a harness bar. it's great!

You might want to check out kirk racing as well. I have a kirk bar and am very happy with it. The finish is not the same as the Hard Dog but the price reflects that as well. One other benefit is there are add on side bars that you can get welded in later for more lateral safety without going full cage.

how does the kirk guy fit with glass rear windows and hardtop
s

I have a 99 top on my car and it fits just fine with the stock glass rear window. As for a HT, I'm not sure as I don't have one anymore.

I too have been looking at the Kirk Rollbar for my '99 with the slug bars. I've heard that the forward slug bars help a ton for chassis stiffness. Sort of like adding overheads thus turning the convertible into a coupe. I'm to tall for overheads being 6'3" but something like kirks slug bars would be great if they made a substantial enough difference.
-I'm not sure i'll go kirk though, there is a local roll cage fabricator that might get my business though i'm not sure. All he does is fabricate roll cages and roll bars for cars and I have seen his work.
Kirks price of $485 for the 6 point plus shipping compared to the local cost of around $425 for the same thing is tempting. Kirk is tried and true though without many fitment problems and I hear great customer service to boot.

i have an NB HDHCDD with tabs in my '92. i added a '99 top last year. i like this bar better than the NA HDHCDD it replaced, it will fit a hardtop, too.

try calling up kirk no asnwear everytime i call.i really wanted the side bars.

I ordered harness tabs on mine...but I don't think I got them...anybody have pics of what a harness tab looks like?

BTW, look on auto-x forums and track clubs and you can find used bars for sale, I don't know if you'd want to buy a used bar, but unless the car was wrecked it would seem that it would be safe.

Thanks for the feeback! I did see the tabs on a Hard Dog, they were basically a wider base for the rear uprights... with what looked an awful lot like a basic screw eye sticking out of it.

Be careful with that car in the picture. One of the oldest tricks in the book is to spice up the photo with something to make you think a little old lady drove it. The cane and the stupid fluffy steering wheel cover could be props. Nobody who needs a cane would drive a Miata... and come on, the only mod on the whole car and it's a big fluffy steering wheel cover.

Here's what I think: :bsflag:
Sorry I have nothing to add about roll bars, except GOOD ON YOU for making the decision to get one!:bigtu:

I should add that I have an M2Sport, but wish I would have gotten a hardcore so I could have gone to trackdays and stuff down the road.

For the street the M2 sport bar is the better bar, believe me, I tested one... that's my 10AE on Hard Dogs website... I upgraded to the HDHCDD, and although I am happy with it, I had more room for my head to be away from the bar on the street. The M2 sport clearly saved my life.

Mark

I have a sport bar that I scored for $100, and welded in a harness bar with a single diagonal. The hardtop barely fits, and I can't get the side latches.

Oh well, its raining today, and not leaking.

What precludes you from using the sport for HPDE? As near as I can tell, all you really need is a fourpoint.
Good points, indeed. There's also a mysterious "we" in the text of the ad... AND "she" has only been a member since 8/1/06, and sold nothing so far. Not to mention it's supposedly been in OH for eight months but still has TX plates.

Thanks Sam! I needed some support, I'm jonesin bad. :D

My opinion on Miata roll bars for the street: You are much more likely to be involved in a collision where your head will contact the roll bar with enough force to do damage than you are to roll a Miata. If you are only driving on the street and occasional autocrosses I would not install a roll bar. If you are doing solo1 or HPDE’s, install an SCCA or other sanctioning body legal bar and be sure to pad any area your head might touch.

Hi Pete-I agree 100%. The car will get 4-8 HPDE's a year, so the rollbar is a must. If it's easy enough in and out, I might just make installing the rollbar part of the preflight checklist.

It's also the reason I was looking at the (insert obscure acronym here): to gain rearward room. Both my wife and I are pretty small people, so it shouldn't be that hard to keep our domes away from the hard stuff.

The only one I've ever installed was a HardDog Hardcore. That one is not something you can remove and install easly.

who else thinks a roll bar will cause more damage than good,on a mainly daily driver.

also did you win the car.

Concussion < Death. If you bonk your head, you'll get a nice bump, some blood, and maybe a concussion. If you roll without a rollbar, you're dead. Sure the miata has a low center of gravity, but most people tend to drive it aggressively in corners and narrow roads. Furthermore, you might be a great driver, but all it take is one schmoe in an SUV who side swipes you or a dog/cat running into the road...

FWIW, a lot of people (over 50 at least and many of them daily drivers) in the local club with rollbars and I have not heard of one concussion yet, but there was one member who died by rolling his miata without a rollbar and one who rolled his car and walked away b/c a rollbar. YMMV.

I'll daily drive my car with the M1 Hardcore bar. Better yet I'll do it (GASP!) with out padding. I don't think I'm anymore likely to get concussed on the rollbar than say the A or B pillar in most cars. But then again I run with scissors!

I have the Boss Frog Clearview, and I really like it. I picked it out due to its compatibility (glass window + hardtop) because my NA has a glass rear window. I also like that it is SCCA Solo 1 certified as I do take my car to track day events. Yes, it was a little pricey, but I figured it was worth it.

I'm 6'3 would i have problems with hitting my head on a hardcore? I think i'll end up putting corbeaus or something in before i get the rollbar just to get better clearance by mounting the seats directly to the floor. But if i did the bar first, would i end up banging my head all the time?

I have a hardcore and I hit my head.. im 5'10 (getting a race seat eventually). I like my harness wrapped around a bar rather than tabs. Greater surface area = less stress, the problem is that your creating a moment on the bar where with harness tabs its completely in tension.

Things are harder to break in tension than in a moment. Then again the force needed to exceed the ultimate strength of the harness bar probably would have killed me anyways

The roll bar discussion is mute regarding hitting your head, get padding... OMG i just solved the 15 year old argument that M.net has every week... I think im the next buddha...

Nope, got up to $5300, still didn't meet reserve. With $500+ in shipping minimum, that's getting to be mroe than I really wanted to pay.

Plus, with my evil plans - coilovers, turbo, MS, rollbar, harness, track abuse, it wouldn't really be right to chop up an M. At the very least, not worth a premium to get one.

I've come to the realization that my dream Miata isn't really what I want. What I really want (in a perfect Ha Ha kinda world) would be an R with AC. More realistically, something with the bare minimum of options (PEP/PSP) to get the torsen - that little sucker is essential, and I don't want to pay $800 for one down the road.

In the past, I had a couple of Datsun Roadsters (hideous little Japanese cars doing their best to be British, ugh) with rollbars. Never gave bumping my head a thought.

ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY BUDDHA:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Taking your advice would have resulted in my death. Thanks, but I'll risk the concussion.

Mark

I'm with Mark. I had a friend walk away from a flip that would have killed him otherwise. I have mine padded, but soon I'm going to opt for lower seats and maybe harnesses(even for the wine and cheese runs)

To those of you who's life has been saved by a roll bar. I'm glad it did it's job as intended. Personally I will not put a bar in my car until it's needed for track days.

Can i have your car to part out after you die?

Why wouldnt you just pad a rollbar?

If you can find the one I totaled In Janurary on Friday the 13th., I'm sure some parts are usable.:eek:

There are 2 types of roll bar padding available. One is too soft: It compresses too rapidly allowing your head to contact the bar with almost as much force as an unpadded bar. One is too hard: It's ment to lessen the shock of a helmeted head contacting the bar.

When it comes time to start doing track days or HPDE's I will install a bar, Probably a Kirk or HardDog Hardcore and I will pad it with the harder SFI rated padding.

You do know there is more than two types of padding right?

Cmon go through and find something with the properties you want. I would probably wrap the soft stuff around the hard stuff, or vice versa.

But its your head.

Sorry I got here late. This is bad info in my opinion. Even though the SFI padding was designed to be used with a helmet, it will still provide a significant amount of protection on a bare head in the event of a moderate rear-end collision. No, I have no hard data or studies to back this up, just based on talking with people who've hit their bare heads on SFI padded bars. Of course if you get smacked at 100mph not much will save you... but for average traffic-light rear-enders, probably just a bruise and a headache... a slight concussion at worst.

You take a DEADLY chance in a rollover without a bar.
You take a slight chance in a rear-ender with padded bar.

Get a bar.
Pad the bar.
Sleep safe at night.

For those of you thinking about a bar and who aren't afraid of going to that other site. You might want to check out this group buy. It's manufactured by HardDog and is SCCA Solo1 legal. http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=205675

I might even get one for myself. (Did I just say that? :eek: I must be getting soft in my old age.)

Actually I only know of two types that are sold as rollbar padding. There are other things I've seen people try to use (I was an SCCA national tech inspector for a few years) like Styrofoam and hot water pipe insulation.

As I mentioned in my post above I'm considering the HardDog bar on M.net because I'm planning on doing some solo1s, track days & HPDEs.

Being as most people on this site are adamant about having a roll bar I will not express my opinions about them here again.

Oh, come on now, don't be a poop head. That's why they're called opinions. If we don't express them then we don't learn anything. I've had my mind changed plenty of times about many things. You just gotta come up with something better on this one. Why go out of your way come up with a reason not to install a potentially lifesaving device, when the only downside is an equally unlikely but considerably less severe injury.

I know two people who've been killed in Miata rollovers, both w/o rollbars. One was a member of SDMC and my next-door neighbor. The other just a buddy. Imagine you were the guy who convinced him he shouldn't get one because he might hit his head someday if he was ever rear-ended.

On a SDMC run, my Dad was driving behind a woman who lost it on a curve and went upside down in a ditch. She crawled out from under the inverted car between the top of the door and the ground, because of the gap the rollbar created by supporting the car off the ground. She'd be dead without it.

Well theres a shit loads of materials out there. I really could care less what the douchebags at SCCA recognize (and so should you).

That's a smokin deal, I sent Tom an email today, we'll see what comes of it...

'course, I still ought to actually buy a Miata someday... :bigtu:

It's hard not to be passionate about the subject, especially when your life was saved by an "unsafe" unpadded roll-bar. Look I agree that making sure that your head does not hit the roll bar is paramount to it saving you, but there are options to make it much safer.

Your opinion is quite valid, hitting your head with the rollbar = bad. I think we can all agree on that.

Also my opinion, scraping your head along the pavement at 30 MPH with 2000# of car on top of you = bad.

Both are bad. So what do you do about that, well you have the discussion we have here. Both sides passionate and both sides right. The idea though is to talk about solutions to the problem. This is what makes the HD sport bar appropriate for many. It's back farther and would prevent many people from impacting their head with the bar (as seen in the pictures below from my own in house testing.) Additionally removing the seat rails and bolting the seat to the floor of the car is a bright measure, lowering the seat 2-3" can make a huge difference for taller drivers who need to avoid bouncing their head off the bar. I think the real answer is one that solves both problems... preventing your head from bouncing off the bar or the pavement.

Solving both problems requires a rollbar. Yes, that car is still on the road! :D

Mark

But, more importantly, so is the driver.:bigtu:

I have to agree with you. Anyone who argues with you only has to read the caption at the bottom of your post to see where you're coming from.

Now, whether you get one or not does not make you any more or less reckless, after all the car is sold without a rollbar built in. Does Mazda want to kill us? I don't think so, they want repeat customers.
Safety is also a personal and individual choice, you decide what your comfort level is. Some people feel safe without the rollbar, others feel naked without it. Heck, some people won't even drive a convertible, much less one the size of a Miata.
Being a long time motorcyclist I've heard my share of stories (and I'll be damned if everyone doesn't have one) of accidents involving motorcycles as soon as they learn that I ride. Just as wearing a helmet is a choice where I live, do I wear a helmet? Yes, for protection and comfort when I ride. Do I wear it 100% of the time? No, but probably over 95% of the time. Sometimes for comfort if I'm riding around the neighborhood I don't bother and I don't feel strange not doing so, but when I travel, sure. I have seen people in motorcycle acccidents where the helmet saved their lives, and they were family members. But I don't let that traumatize me to the point I cannot discern when to or not to wear one.
Now, I also skydive and do I wear a helmet? Yes, most of the time. Will it save me if something goes wrong? Nah, it's for comfort.
So to do exciting, adventurist things, you take calculated risks(not careless risks) and live of not with the consequences of your choices.

Will I get a rollbar, maybe. That does look like a good deal.:bigtu:

Where as, although a proponent of rollbars, I don't wear my motorcycle helmet 95% of the time and when I do it's strictly for reasons of comfort. Safety is a personal issue. I've seen horrible accidents... never want to be in one of them personally.

Mark

I just got done doing some research on the NHTSA site. The following results are for 2004, the most recent year that they have complete data posted.

There were 42,636 vehicle related deaths in the United States. That’s 116 ½ per day. The equivalent of crashing a small airliner every day!

Of those 42,636 people, 301 were killed in convertibles. They did not break it down by make and model.

There were 6.2 million motor vehicle collisions. The most popular; the rear end collision with 1,886,000. This resulted in 2083 deaths in other words you have about a 0.1% chance of being killed in a rear end collision. More people were killed by trees than rear end collisions. On the other hand 555,000 people were injured in rear end collisions. Which means that about 30% of the time a rear end collision will result in injury.

There were 144,000 roll over accidents. This was not broken down by vehicle type so it includes all vehicles. Only 2.3% of all accidents were rollovers, resulting in 4045 deaths. Once a vehicle does roll, defined by a roll of at least 90 degrees, the occupants have a 2.8% chance of being killed and a 61% chance of injury.

What does this mean? First is that commercial air travel is MUCH safer than driving.
To us it means that you are 13 times more likely to be involved in a rear end collision where your head might strike a roll bar, than to roll your vehicle. This is probably even higher for a Miata because the rollover data includes vehicles with high centers of gravity like SUVs and 14 passenger vans, which are much more likely to roll than a Miata.

Once a vehicle does roll, you’re 25 times more likely to be killed and double the chance that you will be injured, compared to a rear end collision. Would a roll bar be of benefit if your vehicle rolled? In most cases, yes.

Do I have the answer to the roll bar question? No. I guess each person must make up their own mind. Are you going to do any competitive events? Are you going to going to run Deals Gap or canyon runs? Are there embankments you might roll down if you were to wind up off the road? Do you feel more comfortable with a piece of equipment that might save your life in the small chance you roll your car but might cause injury in the greater chance that you would be involved in a collision that would cause your head to come in contact with it?

As for me it looks like there will be a bar in my car, to satisfy the competition rules of the independent club I run with.

Pete,

With all due respect, I understand the stats... but my reality is that I have been rear ended 0 times and rolled 1 time. So while your stats are valid for many drivers they mean nothing when the car is on your head. I thought like you, I'll never roll my Miata... a friend insisted that I invest in a rollbar, which was installed two weeks before my roll over.

So while I understand playing the numbers, they don't protect you from reality. If you roll your miata all the stats in the world won't keep the pavement off your head. I thought the pictures helped to illustrate that clearly.

As you note, once you do roll, you are 25 times more likely to be killed and double the chance of injury... My reality was I walked away unscathed. My wife also rolled a firebird and has been rear ended exactly 0 times. Once again, statistically what are the chances that we would both roll vehicles and in our case low profile vehicles that are not particularly prone to roll overs... Hmmm...

Stats can help you evaluate the risk, and provide guidance, and what they tell me here is that you should insure that any roll bar installation should be carefully evaluated and installed so as to reduce the chance of being struck by a rollbar during a rear end collission.

Mark

PS - Excellent job on getting real world stats.

To share personal stats, I've been rear ended 3 times that I can remember (maybe they affected my memory) once in an RX7 at a stop light, once in a Miata stopped in traffic, and once on a motorcycle, also at a stoplight.
Both times at the stoplights being the only vehicle with empty lanes next to me.:eek5:
Let me re-calculate my statistics and safety margin. Get a rollbar? Don't get a rollbar? Move from South Florida? All about choices. :dunno: :D

Don't even get me started on Florida drivers. I've had 2 accidents in a Miata within 2 years. First was a senior citizen in a Navigator who "Didn't see the little car" when he changed lanes on top of me. He was probably paying too much attention to the little dog on his lap. The second was an octogenarian who pulled out from a side street and avoided everyone in the 2 southbound lanes and wound up in front of me in the northbound lane. I had nowhere to go because of cars to my right and cars in the turn lane. I got slowed down from 65 to about 35 but the impact totaled my car. As for me I sustained more injuries from the air bag than from anything else. I’m a fat boy and can’t get my rather ample gut far enough away from the wheel. My stomach was black and blue for a week or so and yes I was wearing a seat belt. So after having two wrecks in 2 years after not having had one in about 20 what did I do? Bought another Miata. I just love these little cars!:bigtu:

Anyone have a rollbar with slug bars going towards the front like the kirk racing bar. I want to see a few pictures and I'm curious as to where it attaches to the chassis in the front. I'm looking at having a bar made over xmas break and need some info.
What do you guys think of the benefits/drawbacks to using 1.5" tubing instead of 1.75". I'd rather use 1.75" but I thought someone might be able to give me reason to back that up. I figure it is a convertible so the extra .25 might make a pretty big difference in a rollover. I'm looking at doing a 6 point bar by the way.

well with your luck I would put a roll bar In and deal with the risk of a Minor injury. This is what I think your face would look like as you start to flip.:crx: smile ... oh fuck... splat

I hit my head really hard on the roll bar few months ago...then I just decided to man up and get a seat. Now I'm safe.

Bringin back the dead!

Darn right, i figure it wasn't a terrible thread to begin with, why not. What kind of seat did you get Hustler and do you have any photos.

I have a full 6 point carbing roll cage from japan in mine complete with sidebars and its great. firstly it looks sweet, secondly it stiffened up the chassis massively.

I love ebay :D