Who knows anything about the law?
 

I've been posting on some law help sites and whatnot, but I thought that I may as well post here because A. as some people may be able to give advice, and B. I'll get some more amusing answers here. And now my generic post.

I am a minor in California, and I got a ticket for what the cop called racing on a local canyon road back in February. I am at a loss as to what to do as so many people have been telling me so many different things.

First of all, I want to say not guilty, because it was in no way a race. I was on the road following my friend up to the point at which the cop was watching. We were admitably speeding, although the cop did not use radar and didn't say how fast I was going. We were not overtaking each other, we were not driving on the other side of the road, we were not tailgating each other, we had no intent of overtaking each other, and knew perfectly well who was going to get to the top first, we were just driving up fast in our lane. I am not sure how much of an argument I will have in juvenile court because from what I have heard the judge really doesn't listen to you without a lawyer.

I do not have a lawyer, although I tried to get one. My parents feel that a lawyer isn't needed, and do not want to pay the money for one due to our financial situation.

Here is more of the dilemma, my parents are saying that I should just plead guilty to try and make the court see how cooperative I am being, and to not stir up more trouble, but at the same time, I honestly wasn't racing, and want to argue my case.

And yet another thing I heard about doing was transferring the case to a different court where they have a history of being more lenient, but again, I have no clue on how to do this.

Any help would be much appreciated for my fast approaching court date.

If you were not racing, then plead not guilty. Tell the judge your story. Sounds like reckless driving to me. I've been in court several times over stuff like this. I happen to know a lawyer, so I consulted him a few times, but never had him in court to represent me. You may want to talk to one, and get their advice.

For example, I got arrested for illegal equipment, having nitrous in my caravan. Well, I thought it wasn't illegal, but couldn't find anything that said it wasn't. So, I talk to my lawyer and he shows me all the laws and statutes and after a few minutes of research, we find 'illegal equipment' and print those pages. He reads through it, and there is no mention of nitrous. Brought the papers to court and plead not guilty. Judge looked at me and said are you saying you didn't have nitrous? I'm looking at the pictures the officer took. I said no sir, but nitrous is not illegal equipment. My lawyer and I can not find a law or statute that say's it is. They search for an hour and then call me back up and said it's not illegal, and tore it up.

Moral is, even though I thought/knew it wasn't illegal, I didn't really know how to say it in court. Consulting my lawyer he gave me the advise I needed to win my case.

Well damn, now I just need to make friends with a lawyer... real quick.

Thanks for the advice though, there are plenty around here in Malibu, I'll see if I know someone who knows someone.

What! A cop actually gave you a ticket for having nitrous? I totally believe it, but I wouldn't think that there are any laws specifically naming nitrous.

It is illegal in some states. You can't have the bottle hooked up. It has to be off and disconnected. In other states bottle has to be out of the car completely on the streets. It's only like 6-10 states though, and not MS.

Have you talked to the DA yet have you?

Spray is illegal on the road in all states IIRC.

From what I can tell, no DA because it's a juvenile case, just me and a judge. But I have heard conflicting information about this, but when my parents called the court they said there was no DA, so I am going to assume they were correct.

Sounds like a lame situation man, shoulda fucking booked it when you passed that cop. jk

Whatever you do, DO NOT PLEAD GUILTY.

What CVC did he write you up for? Have you received your "Courtesy Notice" in the mail yet? What road was it on? How fast were you going? What is the posted speed limit? What were the traffic conditions? What was the weather like?
PM me these answers if you don't want to be posting them all here, I'm 19 years old and have be given over 10 tickets but have no points on my record. :-D I can try to help but no guarantees.

if you stab someone in broad daylight, 50 people see you and the person you stabbed is the judge that's assigned to his own trial and happened to video record it at the same time....you say not guilty.

but alas, it's CA, so time to start pulling the parts off the car that you wanna resell ;)

I thought they impound and crush your car if your caught "street racing" in Cali.
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Only if it has stolen parts.

CA sux big hairy donky balls and dick
go to court, tell the cop "fuck you" tell the judge "fuck you" and then say for the record "fuck you"...
they have no proof of you speeding, you are not guilty, how can he say you racing if you were behind another car not trying to pass it, no proof...DO NOT PLEAD GUILTY or ill stab you in the face with an Ice pick

Even if your parents won't financially support your decision to retain council, would they permit you to consult with a public defender?

Also, here's a handy reference so you can start doing your homework:
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html


From CA Vehicle code, chaper 12, article 1:Unfortunately, exhibition of speed is not clearly defined. It is entirely subject to the opinion of the arresting officer and the judgment of the court.

Would the fact that "racing/competition of speed" is specified on the ticket matter? Or does the 23109 mean that any part of the 23109 can be applying to me, including the speed exhibition part?

And I don't know anything about the public defender thing, but in juvenile court the rights are different, and I don't think you have right to a public attorney, but I'll look into it.

I would still plead NOT GUILTY. Remember, in court, you DO NOT have to prove your innocence...they have to prove you're guilty. Did you admit to speeding to the cop? Since it seems the cop cannot prove the speeds of either car, he has no proof of racing, he has nothing to show for it in court. Is your 1st court date a trial or arraignment? If it's an arraignment date, then when you plead not guilty a trial date will be set and you should be able to get a public defender via the court. Remember, public defenders DO want to win their case..even though they are court appointed, they will fight for you.

BTW ... fuck CA.

I have never ever ever heard of a traffic court in North America where this is true.

Always GUILTY and you have to prove your innocence. Yes, it is bassackwards, but that is my experience and the majority experience of what I have read.

Even with examples of an officer's perjury on the stand, the accused was still found guilty in some cases.

i met a lawyer who drives '99 miata w/ all the goodies on it... ill try to find his phone number for you.

And i speak from first hand experience :) I took off out of my neighborhood one night and punched my way through 1st,2nd and 3rd. A cop saw/heard me do this and gave me a ticket for "Racing- exhibition of speed". I kept my mouth shut while the cop gave me my ticket. When i went to TRIAL (i plead not guilty at my arraignment), i got to drill the cop with questions. I basically showed the court that he had no evidence that i did what i was accused of by asking him various questions about how he judged my acceleration. I was found not guilty.... and i too, was by myself with no attorney.

Accept responsibility for what you did. If you truely beleive you weren't in the wrong, then fight it. If you are fighting it just to avoid the penalty then you need to think of that everytime you bitch because a cop wasn't there when you needed him.

I've done my fair share of stupidity behind the wheel of a car, and the times I got caught I took it like a man and paid. Shit like that teaches you a lesson.

What's the fine and the impact on your insurance if you are found guilty?

This is America!!!! No one is ever responsible for their own actions, we are always innocent. Isn't it time to pay your Queen tribute?

reddroptop-i see why you may think that, but look at it this way...
if a cop has proof (radar, accident report, etc.) you are guilty from the start
if the cop has no evidence, why do you need to prove anything? he has no evidence that this kid was speeding/racing...how did he conclude that these two cars were racing? only if they plead guilty...
I would still plead not guilty and kinda do what dopplegangerftw says

The cop has to prove beyond reasonable doubt that you were speeding. With no print out from the radar gun he can't. So use that as your argument. All you have to say is "So, how can you, beyond reasonable doubt, prove that I was speeding?", and when he can't furnish any evidence, you are off the hook. Doppelgänger is correct also with having an arraignment. Plead not guilty, and you should be good to go.

Yes it is, I'll go spend a penny. Isn't it time you go make war on someone? :)

nah we are already spread thin, gotta wait it out and find another easy target.

That sounds good, but not true. They can make judgment calls for reckless driving. They are trained to do things like that. Basically the OP knows he was speeding, and so does the cop. Don't lie and say you were not. That would not be a smart move on your behalf. Instead, tell the truth. Tell them you were speeding, but were not racing. That's reckless driving with no radar ticket. No radar ticket doesn't mean your off the hook for reckless.

For example I did a burnout in the minivan for about 300 feet. I wasn't speeding (since I had the e-brake applied) and the cop didn't have a radar ticket showing me going 15-20 in a 25. Still, it was careless/reckless driving by definition. I know it, he knows it. Actually, the cop wrote it up as careless since their were no other cars around, and I wasn't actually endangering anyone other than myself. By definition it was careless, but in all honesty it was pretty reckless too. The OP's case sounds reckless to me.

Another example: Running a yellow light and it turns red before you clear the intersection is considered careless. Running a red light is considered reckless, at least around here. Running a yellow light is careless because of your bad judgment call. You should have been safe and simply stopped. Running a red light is flat out reckless. You neglected to pay attention, or choose to run the red light, clearly presenting a hazard to other drivers. There was no judgment call made. Wether or not the cop has your speed at the time doesn't matter, he uses his best judgment to decide if you ran the light. He has no physical evidence, but his word holds more water than yours in court.

My best advice is plead not guilty, and explain the situation to the judge yourself, letting him know you are sincerely sorry for your naive mistake and this has been a huge wake up call for you. Let him know you made a poor decision that day, and have learned from it and will never put yourself or others in a dangerous situation like that ever again.

I'm still blown away that patsmx5 had NOS on a minivan. Are you a soccer mom?

If you knew what the penalties for street racing are in some states (like CA) you would not be saying that. Plead NOT GUILTY and request a lawyer. Tell them that you are an emancipated minor and that you need a public defender. Also get yourself emancipated from your retarded parents who refuse to teach you how to use the legal system properly! Your parents should be ashamed of themselves!

Mark

hense the not guilty plee. dont tell them anything they dont need to know. you weren't racing so you pleed not guilty. ask to take a $60 defensive deriver class in lieu of the ticket being dropped, should take 30 seconds and they'll push your through the door. here in VA at least :)


if you are ever even thinking of pleading guilty, you plead no contest.

+1 on MarkP's statement. spending $750 on a cheap lawyer will pay for itself 10X fold in the comming years increase in insurance payments. with very few exceptions it is always worth it to spend a little coin and get a cheap/reasonable lawyer. you don't need an expensive bad ass, you just need someone that knows their ass from a hole in the ground.

That's true. However, around here if you said everything I told him to say, even that he was speeding, I can almost guarantee they would have sympathy for the kid, and just give him a speeding fine, a reckless fine, or the drivers class. Just saying that going down the honesty path will likely get him out of the racing ticket, even if it gets him a speeding ticket. I'd rather take the speeding ticket than try to make a presentable case that I wasn't racing, and not admit I was speeding either. IMO, his odds of getting away scotch free are slim. He'd be better off to walk in there and tell the truth, explain how he was naive and has learned his lesson and bla bla bla, and walk out with a 150 dollar fine for reckless or something else a lot less severe than racing.

Oh, and here a lawyer will defend a kid for less than 750, 250 would do it. I'm just good friends with a kick-ass lawyer, so I get it for free. I'm actually friends with two lawyers, I recently built a fence for one that lives a few blocks from my house. He said let him know if I ever needed a lawyer and he'd take care of me. :)

The individual paragraphs under 23109 (a, b, c, etc...) are separate crimes, however they all carry pretty much the same range of penalties. I didn't read far enough to see exactly what those were.

That part I can't much help with, but at a bare minimum you need to at least consult an attorney who specializes in traffic matters.

No, he doesn't. The officer does not even need to suggest that the defendant was speeding, since violating the speed limit is a completely separate offense from either "speed contest" or "exhibition of speed." (I've always believed that the latter should be called exhibition of torque. Technically, you can "exhibit speed" at 5mph by doing a burnout at a stop light.)

Because of the wording of the law, there is one no specific standard that must be met in order to be guilty. Much like reckless driving, Exhibition and Speed Contests are almost entirely a subjective matter. The officer will describe to the court what behavior he witnessed the defendant exhibit: traveling at a high rate of speed, in an environment conducive to competitive behavior (perhaps noting any previous arrests for similar activities which have occurred on or near the road in question) in the presence of another, presumably modified vehicle operated by an acquaintance of the defendant and also being driven in a similar manner, etc... At that point, the officer has met the standard needed for a conviction.

The defendant will then present any evidence or testimony he has to negate the statements of the officer or explain why the behavior that the officer observed was in fact not in violation of 23109.

Then the court will then find the defendant guilty.

In other words, for an offense such as this, a teenager driving a sports car in the canyons is pretty much boned right from the start. Unless you want to be bumming rides from your friends for a long time, you need professional help.

I was in traffic court last summer, One of the cases before mine was about a similar scenario. The Kids father was present. (one of the cars ended up off the "traveled portion of the road" I believe the officer cited them w/ racing resulting in an accident.

The Judge asked the father, "Did your son receive any discipline at home as a result of this ticket?"
The Father, "Yes we took away his video games for a week, and he was only allowed to drive to school."
The Judge replied, "MMM, I'll have to review the case and make my ruling later in the day"

The Kid stated one more time he wasn't racing...

IIRC, minors can loose their license til they are 21, if the judge finds what the officer cited them for.

Next was my turn in front of the judge (I'm a bit older), It was tough to bite my tongue and say something like, "Judge-Please don't take my Video games too"...

How did your parents react?

Well they were understandably pissed. They got the car out of impound early by talking to the sheriff, but that wasn't so I could drive it, but just to avoid the astronomical impound fees. Couldn't drive for 30 days per the aphedavid, but I really need to drive to school seeing how far away it is, so after those 30 days I was commuting again.

There was lots of yelling and bickering, but I got to keep my videogames :D, seeing as I don't play them...

And another update, I took some of the advice I got on here (much better advice than what I got on some BS preachy ridiculous law forum) and talked to a lawyer, who I am meeting with along with my parents tomorrow. Hopefully he will be able to steer me in the right direction legally, and maybe even keep my license in my pocket. I definitely feel better doing this than going in blind and just being humble.

Also thanks for all of the advice that people have given me on here, seriously it has been a huge help.

Get a lawyer, they really do work miracles. 500 for the lawyer + fine > points or license suspension.

Otherwise the cop is always right and you are screwed generally in cases like this, its his word against yours and he is always right.

Whiggity woot! I got a lawyer and had the courtdate, and wow! Thank you so much everyone who recommended to get a lawyer. I got the ticket reduced to a 1 point infraction, and got traffic school for that infraction, so nothing goes on the record! The only downside is that I got 50 hours community service and a 90 day restricted license from the juvenile judge to teach me a lesson, but I can deal with that, and 50 hours of community service kicks the shit out of no license for a year.

I'm pretty much fucking pumped about this result! Even I thought I would get my license suspended, and even more so after reading the police report.

Again, thank you to everyone for the legal advice! Miata turbo pretty much saved my ass this time. Too bad this cuts into the boost fund, oh well maybe that should wait a while anyways.

Glad to hear it worked out for you. It's hard to say what "could have been", but 50 hours & 90 days is pretty much a wrist-slap.

Would you care to share some of the details of the proceeding?

This is all this thread really needed to hear.

I have a penchant for getting sued and I don't seem to be very good at preparing defenses for myself even when I'm outrightly innocent. And in my line of work, I see a lot of people brought to the carpet for stuff that is clearly unjust. And whenever I see people prepare their own seemingly logical defenses (or appealing to the court by admitting guilt), they come out with a big sloppy mess.

Judges' rulings are rarely logical and never predictable.

What am I saying? I've learned the hard way that, although they're expensive, lawyers provide relatively cheap insurance and you will come out ahead with less payout, less lost time and less lost sleep.

Glad you got out "cleanly".

Well I was there with my lawyer and parents, all dressed very sharply, and we actually intended to enter a not guilty plea as this was just the arraignment. We were called into the judge's room (again, different because of juvenile system) and my lawyer saw that she had the police report and asked to see it, we went outside and read it, went back in and tried to explain some of the report(as in, not drifting like it said, and that he couldn't have known which car was squealing, and that it is almost impossible to keep all wheels away from the double yellow on that road no matter what speed you are going due to how twisty it is) and requested it be reduced to a 1 point infraction. She said that was a lot to ask and told us she would have to think about it, then a little later on she called in just my lawyer and then he came out in a few minutes with the news of it being reduced to a restricted license, 1 point infraction, 50 hrs community service, and traffic school for that infraction.

Basically it really payed off that the lawyer had a good relationship with this judge, and knew how to get it reduced to a 1 point, then eliminated by traffic school. Plus for community service I get to go and work at an animal shelter, so maybe I can get some funny cat pictures!

Quoted for emphasis.

Regardless of anybody's personal opinions on the idea, such matters are indeed a factor in the modern judicial process, particularly as it relates to administrative hearings or bench trials, where a judge is the sole finder of fact. It is unlikely that Lionel Hutz or The Hyperchicken, for instance, would have curried similar favor.

I don't know, The Hyperchicken seems pretty good to me.

OP: Let me give you some advice. I'm not a cop, I'm not a lawyer, I've never taken any law classes, and am not qualified to give you advice in any way except my past experience with the "Justice" system.

1. NEVER, EVER talk to the police as a defendant or suspect without legal representation. I mean, NEVER. <-- Those exact words are from my lawyers mouth. Since you're under the age of 18, its ILLEGAL for the police to question you in an ongoing investigation without your PARENTAL consent!

2. NEVER admit you did something wrong, if you did or not.

3. Get legal council immediatly. Fighting something like that won't cost you a fortune and will be worth whatever it will cost. Call every lawyer you can find in the yellow pages, most will meet with you for free and any DESCENT person will let you make payments.

4. Do NOT plead guilty to that just to see if you can squeak out through the justice system. The judge will look at the facts; Young kid, sports car, racing, plead guilty. First off a charge like that will likely cause you a great deal of financial burden from the cLAW, loss of driving privileges, driving classes, raised insurance rates. Where I live the maximum punishment for something like that is actually 120 days incarceration, and will go on your record!

Good luck, mang.

NO NO NO NO NO NO, A THOUSAND TIMES NO!

Nitrous is NOT illegal to have installed in a vehicle! If the valve is closed you're straight. If its open, then you're fucked. :jerkit: