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Winchester white box is terrible ammo

So are the 500 Russian spark shooter steel case ammo I bought.

100box for $22 at my local Walmart... unless you're gonna buy reman stuff by the 1000ct, nothing is cheaper for brass. I've shot a couple thousand rounds of the stuff in the past year and never had a problem. Accuracy isn't an issue for me because I can't shoot for shit anyways... so as long as it goes bang, and it always has.

The Monarch steel stuff is cheaper at Academy when they go on sale... like 9.89 per 50ct, but I've never been so poor that I went that route.

On the other hand, I'll probably buy crappy Tula stuff by the case when I start shooting .223 a lot... like $4.89 20ct. I've been buying .223 Aquilia in the 50ct box as often as I find it, and I don't even own an AR yet.

No problems with WWB here either. I prefer Sellier and Bellot for cheap FMJ when you can find a good price on it, but WWB is fine.

Ive never had a problem with WWB and Ive shot alot of it. I always buy cheap shit for shot guns and have never had a problem, all the stuff I hunt with I reload myself but when Im going to fart around at the range I shoot the cheapest stuff I can find.

Never had any problems besides some of the cheap stuff being dirtier, and for most people only shooting a few hundred miles the cheap shit will do just fine. When I forget my ammo, Im more than confident in making a 2-300 yard shot with my rifle, with pretty much whatever I can find.

no problems here in .40 WWB

This

9mm wwb consistently fails for me where others do not -
as far as value for fun at the range right now I stick to federal, blazer brass, and federals newer cheap one (American eagle) -
all seem to always work where wwb fails and most are not much more

Sure it's not your gun? I've put WWB through several guns and never had an issue. I actually don't think I have ever experienced a misfire, ever. With WWB or otherwise. Then again I haven't shot as much as some. Probably only 1500-2000 rounds.

WWB in .380 has all ways been my goto cheap ammo for the range. I have never had any issues with it in my Walther PPKS or my Keltec P3AT.

If I can't reload it, I don't shoot it. Except for shotguns. Never shot enough to justify reloading them.

I almost always use WWB and CCI Blazer aluminum for my cheap range ammo and never had an issue that wasn't related to user error or gun quirkiness. In other words, it wouldn't have mattered what ammo was in the pistol, the problem still would have occurred. Multiple SIGs, Kahr PM9, LCP, etc.

Any relation to the Russian firearm manufacturer?

Same.

I use WWB all the time. Infact my XMD 9mm has not failed on anything yet. I've run Federal, WWB, Tula steel case, Bear....anything else I can find. It runs all of it.

Who moved this shit to it's own thread? I challenge my aggressor to a duel.

I did not move it but at least it's not in the gun thread?

About 99% of semi-automatic rifles can shoot this crappy steel-case just fine... no issues whatsoever. This stuff is cheap and makes the same noise as the expensive stuff. But the 1% of guns who jam like crazy and can't feed it are the ones you hear about.

I haven't shot tons of AR's, but the only one I saw that just couldn't shoot the steel-cased stuff was a brand new Colt. After 1000rds, it fed everything just fine, but brand new, it would malfunction every single round with steel casings.

The only real drawback is that they're fairly dirty... but if you're like most people and clean your good guns periodically (if not after every range session), there's nothing wrong with cheap Russian Tula/Wolf/Bear/etc. In any case, even with the occasional misfire, it forces you to practice clearing drills... not a bad tradeoff all around for the price.

In any case, you can get the cheap stuff from .21-.23 cents per round just about anywhere before shipping. In store, $5 per 20 is about as good as you can do, and makes .25cents before tax... so you're closing in on the price of brass stuff shipped.

Cheap brass stuff is .30cents per round before shipping... I have a buddy who buys a lot of Freedom Munitions remanufactured. I've seen Federal AE223H 55gr black-box for $5.99/20 at Academy a few times... always buy everything they have... usually just a box or two left, and I always look all over the rack to see if anybody has stashed any for later. I wish I could find more 100rd packs around here. Some day I'll just have to suck it up and buy a few thousand rounds bulk all at once.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1344876077

http://assets.academy.com/mgen/10/10...jpg?is=500,500

I've shot literally thousands of rounds of 55 gr Tula/Wolf/etc through my old Colt with no issues.

I also have fired around 500 rounds of tulammo through my military kit Colt M16A2 before i sold it. No cycling issues or jams, misfires, etc.

Don't want to derail the thread but I feel this is a good venue to ask.

What's a good rifle to get for a beginner shooter?

Something with relatively inexpensive ammo, good accuracy, reliable and wont get boring. I have no idea what to pay but I'd like to stay under 1000 bucks.

10/22

Sam, what do you need the rifle to do for you?

Given your rather vague description of what you want, pusha's recommendation of a 10/22 fits your needs - but then your description is the gun example of going to a car dealership and telling the dealer: I need something with 4 wheels that runs on gas, what do you have?

Sam, about 20 of us on this board could write a book on what makes a first good rifle.

$1000 is a huge budget, and basically puts you in the range of every type of rifle there is. You can get a great AR15 for well under that amount, or a fantastic large-caliber hunting rifle, or a simple little bolt-action .22.

I will assume you just want to go down to the range and make some noise on occasion... most first-time gun owners don't know enough about how they intend to use a gun to ask the right questions... so we'll start with: "just something to go to the range and make some noise... something that will challenge me and give me enough experience to really figure out what I want for in a second gun."

Pusha's suggestion of a Ruger 10/22 is the most common suggestion. They are the "go-to" semi-automatic .22lr, and really have no equal for what they are.

They can be plain-jane wooden basic like from Mulberry... or with the change of a stock, fully "tactical" straight out of a Navy SEAL movie. They are relatively cheap, extremely reliable, and shoot the cheapest ammo you can buy. You cannot go wrong with one... in fact, they are so popular, just about everybody who has ever been into guns has one or two or is sorry they ever sold theirs. They can be outfitted with every possible gizmo you can imagine, including suppressors and even made fully automatic.

Your local sporting goods store should have at least one model of 10/22, and every gunshow has dozens you can pick up and fondle. Buds online sells most of the variants at good prices. http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/i...e+Autoloading/ I see the regular wood models at Academy for $189 sometimes.

These are all Ruger 10/22's, from basic to crazy:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1344885793


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1344885793https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1344885793

I don't plan to do any hunting if that's what you mean.

Target shooting I guess.

10/22 or one of those neat Marlin .22s

That's a pretty accurate assessment. Id like to go to the range to make some noise, kill an afternoon and figure out if I want to pursue it further.

I can't get a AR15 in NY. The reading I have done on the NY GOV site says its banned from being owned under a rifle/shotgun permit.

I have heard great things about the ruger 10/22 rifles, but I was hoping to get something with a slightly larger caliber.

However, if you're looking to get something a bit more "fun" to start with, and really do have that much of a budget... there is a really strong argument for choosing an AR-15 chambered in .22lr.

A normal AR-15 shoots .223 caliber... a small'ish centerfire cartridge. Centerfire means that the primer is inserted into the bottom of the casing, and the firing pin hits the center of the primer to ignite the charge. .22lr (twenty-two long rifle), and a few other calibers, are called RIMFIRE... meaning the firing pin strikes the RIM of the rear of the cartridge... the primer actually IS the rear of the casing, and not a separate piece inserted into the casing.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1344889528


You can see in this picture, the .22lr rimfire cartridge on the left has a small notch where the firing pin hit it in the 5 o'clock position. The centerfire cartridge on the right (this one is a .45 pistol cartridge, but rifle ones work the same way) has a large indention in the center of the primer where it was struck. There are only a few rimfire cartridges out there, .22lr being the most popular of them.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1344889528


Although .223 and .22lr bullets are the same diameter, the cartridges could not be more dissimilar... also pic'd.

The advantage or .22lr is that it's very very very cheap, has very little recoil, and can be crazy tricky to learn to shoot well, as the bullet during it's flight is very succeptible to every little disturbance in wind and other variables.

.22lr vs. .223
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1344889528

As for an AR-15... you can buy complete .22lr model, or you can buy a separate upper and lower receiver assembly. The lower receiver assembly is the part that houses the stock, trigger group, and magazine. The upper receiver is the one that determines which ammo you shoot through the gun once you attach the upper to the lower. You can attach almost any caliber of upper receiver to a multi-caliber or standard lower receiver.

This is stripped lower receiver... they all look alike minus the skull:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1344889528


This is a complete lower receiver... with attached trigger, grip, and stock:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1344889528


This is a stripped upper receiver:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1344889528


This is a complete upper receiver, with attached barrel, hand guard, gas block, and installed bolt carrier group and charging handle:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1344889528


When you attach a complete lower to a complete upper, you have a gun. IIRC, all lowers are multi-caliber, meaning they will universally accept any complete upper, and shoot any caliber of bullet. So... buy regular AR-15 in .223, and get yourself a second complete upper in .22lr, or buy a drop-in .22lr conversion kit for your .223 upper. Now you have 2 guns in one.

Sam, youre really puttin a lot of effort into these posts... you been getting the cold shoulder from you partner lately?

Sorry to go through all that trouble just to learn you can't have one... so here's something to try... Mini-14.

I'm pretty sure you can own a pre-ban or current Ranch Rifle model in NYS. A Ranch model is gonna be about $700, but is probably the most practical thing to look for if a semi-auto centerfire is on your "must have" list. Any FFL should be able to tell you what you can/can't own in the state.

OTOH... a nifty little pistol-caliber carbine might be what the doctor ordered. Hi-point sells a 9mm/.40/.45 carbine w/10rd mags that is a great little gun. Ammo is more expensive than .22lr of course, but it makes way more bang. Take a look at these:
Hi-Point Firearms: 9mm Carbines

If you're looking for something truly unique, how about a Glock handgun with a carbine conversion. All said and done, it's going to be $1000.

All in all, you shouldn't agonize too much about what to buy first. Just get a 10/22 start somewhere. Make a few friends that will let you shoot their stuff, and buy something else better/bigger/fun'er in a few months.

Come on up to NOLA... we'll go "riding" together, cowboy!

Bro I've been to bourbon street twice and I never wanna go back

Excellent post, Sam. Props to you.

Sure about that? Buddy of mine that lives in Binghamton (legally) bought an AR a couple years ago. I know there were a couple additional regulations (18" minimum barrel, no collapsible stock? some silliness like that), but it was a real deal AR other than that, no fixed-magazine CA nonsense.

Long Island may be subject to the same regs as the city, depending on where he is.

^Correct, my spidey sense should have tingled...
Work in progress: NYS Gun Laws Resource & FAQ ***small addition 12/15/2010*** - AR15.COM




AR-15's are totally legal as long as configured within the law. Pre-bans are legit across the board... post bans must not have more than one of these evil features:

• A pistol grip
• A flash hider or a threaded barrel that can readily accept a flash hider or suppressor
• A folding or telescoping stock
• A bayonet lug
• A grenade launcher

So... get a naked barrel or fixed muzzle brake, pinned stock, and stick to 10rd mags (or buy pre-ban mags)... you're good. In fact, most manufacturers make NYS compliant models, along with NJ and Cali models... but I knew that. Fart. My awesome post earlier is still relevant.


Check this out:
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...liant+w16%22+B

Don't buy a pinned stock, just buy an M16A2 fixed one.

Uncool:td:

You and I both know there's nothing lamer than a fake part on a weapon. You gonna tell him to get one of those fake birdcage flash suppressors next?

I was thinking more of something like this for his 10/22... low recoil equals quicker follow-up shots. BAUCE!

M22/50™ .22LR MUZZLE BRAKE - FLASH HIDER FOR RUGER®

http://www.tacticalinc.com/imagemagi...00&h=400&page=

Extreme want

That's why you get something more like an ACE fixed position lightweight stock.

ACE Skeleton Buttstock 9.9 Overall Length AR-15 LR-308 Aluminum Black

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1344910364

all this talk of 10/22 mods is getting me wet, and wanting a 10/22

9mm wwb consistently fails for me where others do not -
as far as value for fun at the range right now I stick to federal, blazer brass, and federals newer cheap one (American eagle) -
all seem to always work where wwb fails and most are not much more

How do they get $65 for that?

its a gun part.

I have one of those (ACE skeleton). I don't like it and I much prefer a traditional A2 style stock.

Seriously? That's the cheapest skeleton stock out there.

Call this guy and get together... total boner in my pants.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1344911794

Wow that dude dresses like shit

Thanks for taking the time and putting in the effort to make those posts Sam. I really appreciate it. I am going to take your advice and look into either a Ruger 10/22 or a NYC compliant AR15.

If I was purchasing a Ruger or an AR 15 specifically a NYC compliant model , would I purchase direct from the manufacturer online, a gun shop, or a sports authority, dicks type place?

Buy it from wherever you feel comfortable.

Would space-dock with baby, ginger Elvis.

mmmm mutton chops :party: