New Member from Mass - Interesting Turbo Miata
 

Hi guys, I am an old timer DSMer from Mass, who ended upwith this interesting 94 turbo Miata. Though I am an DSM expert, I do not knowmuch about Miatas or this car in particular. I can tell that it was someone’s baby,judging by all the mods, but I am not even 100% sure what is stock and what isn’t.
First I have some general questions:
What is this turbo kit?
It has an intercooler (small by DSM standards).
What other mods can you spot? :)
It appears to have a fuel pressure regulator. And everything is controlled by a blue GreedyEmanage.


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1444704736


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1444704736


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1444704736


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1444704736


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1444704736

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1444704736


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1444704736


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1444704736

Car has compression, but it doesn’t fire or spray fuel. I am not sure where to start diagnosing thiscar. Being a ’94, this must be beforeOBD2. So my OBD2 readers areuseless. I guess I should try to connectto Emanage. I am very tempted to convertit to DSM Link :).

Any advise how to proceed?

Thanks!

part out and/or sell it to the next sucker. Way too much fuckery to un fuck.

Well, that is always an option... But this seems too nice of a shell with virtually no rust to part it out. Whoever built it, put some serious money into it (including V1 radar detector).


PO was from CT, does anyone recognize this car?

If you do want to keep it.

step1, remove that piggy back aids
2, get the wiring back to stockish
3, install megasquirt
4, get accordian hose out of engine bay
5, deal with whatever fuckery isnt blatantly obvious right now that you find along the way.

Accordion hose used for BOV return line is fine. But I am not happy with the intake part (between turbo and MAF), that will definitely have to be changed.


If I am switching to another ECU, it is going to be DSM Link ;).

I'm still trying to figure out what that thing is in the sixth picture. It's no emanage that I recognize.

Is the stock ECU still present? Look behind the passengers seat.

If so, I'd start by attempting to remove every bit of aftermarket wiring and circuitry and getting the engine to idle on the stock ECU.

Thats a terrible idea. This one guy tried to use DSM link, which could maybe actually work since the DSM and NA miata use the same CAS but it was an epic failure. MS just plugs in and works.

I custom wired DSM Link into Eagle Summit, which involved making my own harness, Miata can't be THAT much different, especially if CAS is compatible. I have heard of several Miata's running DSM Link with great success, but then, those guys are hanging out on DSM forums ;).


Joe, I suspect that photo is a methanol injection system, as it is in the truck and has a large tank.

Your car looks to have been "built" by a 6th grader with a budget of about $10


Are you a redneck?

What makes you jump to this conclusion?


Does this look like any particular turbo kit, or is it all "home made"?

Because only a redneck would look at that pile of crap and say "it's got serious money in it".


It looks like a begi mani, with a sr20det t25 on it,
the rest is just hacked together junk. and I really mean junk. most wouldn't buy it even for $50
gauges are ebay junk
intercooler is some oem fitted in
the charge pipes....lol
the fmu means that whatever weird looking juju box is connected likely can't control fuel and timing very well

The frame rails look like FM rails. So that part is good. lol

To be fair both mathewdesigns and underdog had great cars come out of DSM Link. Though mathew works at some high dollar shop, and underdog just likes self inflicted pain through huge projects :)

Edit: Aidan beat me to the defensive line :D

This one guy here typing has a Miata running on ECMLink and it kicks ass. Underdog was the first and it also was a complete success. Nobody else is using it/has tried to use it afaik, though a number of people have inquired with me regarding the setup. The CAS is essentially identical and that makes it all possible, but not easy.

My answer to the inquiries has always been: Megasquirt

OP, do yourself a favor and listen to what everyone said about what's under the hood, forget about using ECMLink unless you like making custom harnesses, and buy some sort or MS unit to run the whole operation.

There he is. Can DSMLink be updated to use the crank and cam triggers from newer engines? Or just the 1.6?

Ehh, I've not heard of one running like that. A quick search revealed that a two tooth trigger plate can be used (not a typo...two teeth lol).

So he would be spending a shit ton of time digging himself into a hole that leaves no upgrade path?

I know an Evo8 can be run with ECMLink, and it uses a crank trigger, here's a pic:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1444715181

Whether he's stuck I'd say the ecu is pretty flexible. I'm running an ethanol sensor with real-time dual-map interpolation for timing and mixture, ecu-triggered fans, integrated wbo2, and external triggers if I find a use for one.

Definitely a shit ton of time to make it happen.

Also. This = someone's baby

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1444715368

Not the bundle of snakes in that thing.
/humblebrag

But compared to megasquirt which has 4 different off the shelf plug and at ignition trigger methods.

This build was done around 2005/2007 (judging by vintage of parts that I do recognize). Many of thes mod might look (and are) dated by today's standards but that doesn't mean that weren't expensive at one point.

The only gauge I recognize is Greddy boost gauge (athentic). Others look too good for being eBay crap after 5+ years. It has Valentine One radar detector build into the car.

Snow Performance meth injection is not cheap ether.

This was not a $50 build!

Now, I understand that piggyback Emanage with variable rate regulator is a hack system today, but it wasn't exactly cheap 8+ years ago...

Pardon me, $60 ;)
( I was here in 08, so I remember )

I really hope you're not defensive because you overpaid

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Car-Universa...3d6ce0&vxp=mtr
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/FmIAAO...Wo/s-l1600.jpg
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1444719927

So some of the collective wisdom has been imparted to you in rather harsh fashion. But I would listen to what's been said.

a) unfuck what has been done. The previous owner has, to be gentle, not followed best practices. I would not trust anything that has been done to it. Undo it, and get the car to idle / run on the stock ecu.

b) Megasquirt. Listen to the people who have actually installed ECMlink and have it running on live miatas, and are still recommending to you that you run Megasquirt. MS is the way and the light. There will be some learning curve on your part, which you understandably want to avoid, but your miata community support will be OMG SO MUCH LARGER with megasquirt.

You have turbo and ecu experience on different platforms, which will serve you well in general, but our advice is to start from zero with this car, because we don't think the PO made wise decisions. Take it back to running on the stock ecu, then do things properly.

Does Miata CAS incorporate a crank sensor, or is it just a cam sensor?

I have done just this in my Summit. I repined the entire harness to run DSM Link. This is remarkably simple, once you break everything down in a spreadsheet. The ONLY original sensor that I reused was TPS and that ended up biting me in the ass because despite looking identical, it had reversed pin order. But that was an easy problem to solve.


How similar is the MPI circuit? Did you have to wire in DSM MPI relay or did you make the original relay work?


Looks like gauges are, in fact, Ebay crap. Never cared for gauges, anyway. I usually log everything I care about (other than RPM, boost and engine temp).

Man that looks really good. Yours? I'm engine out right now for a rebuild and am tempted to go down the tuck and cut rabbit hole. I really just want to drive the car again though lol.

Previous owner:
http://cdn.meme.am/instances/250x250/58138767.jpg?

Shell & interior look decent. I'd find a junkyard 1.8, 6spd & diff and remove the fookery from the PO. And rust repair allthethings. Eventually turbo :bigtu:

If you can pull it off then go for it, especially with your previous effort. Most of the time when people ask about this they don't even know what a soldering iron looks like, let alone how to use it. However If I ever build another turbo Miata from zero I'll use MS...it's just too easy to start with it and there's tons of support here.

Miata CAS is essentially identical to a 1g CAS in operation, and there is only a cam signal on the B6 1.6. The '96 1.8 I am building had a crank trigger plate/sensor but I'm not incorporating it.

TPS in a 1.6 (maybe BP too?) is an off/on switch, DSM unit needs to be swapped in. I ended up using a 1g throttle body so that I could use both the TPS and the FIAV. Ditched the DSM TB and FIAV for the 1.8 build and just modified the TPS to fit on the native Miata TB, with that FIAV deleted, too...much cleaner install.

I had to swap in the MPI and wire everything related, though I'll admit that this was my first big wiring project and I may have overlooked a shortcut if one was present. I ran over to the Miata fuel pressure relay and used the stock wiring from there back.

I'm speed density so I don't have the huge MAF under the hood, and use the baro input for my flexfuel sensor.

I'm going to swap my fan control over to ECMLink this time around using the fuel pressure solenoid output since I'm rerouting the coolant and have deleted the front waterneck.

Thanks for the info, Matthew! Makes perfect sense! Sorry if I missed it, which DSM ECU are you running? 1G or 2G?


You guys are missing one point, being a hard core DSMer, I have more than just “logical” reasons to run DSM Link in a Miata. It is like when people choose to do engine swap, even when it is much more involved. At least I am not talking about doing a complete 4G63 swap ;).



Perhaps this will help you understand, my other three cars setup up or running DSM Link:

1996 Talon Spyder AWD (originally FWD auto, converted to AWD 5sp)

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1444745507


1993 Eagle Summit AWD - 11.6 second minivan (converted to 4G63 – 2G DSM Link)



https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1444745507



1980 Triumph TR7 (4G63 swap – still in progress, but set up to run 1G DSM Link)



https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1444745507

The current 1.8 seems to have fine compression.

oh yea 94' IS 1.8 :giggle: Not awake yet.

Regardless, you're handling a 'special snowflake' project. See if it runs good stock.

You can definitely reuse the BEGi exhaust manifold / turbo (if it's good, no play no leaks) / Downpipe.

Remove musical instrument hose, FMU, bad ecu management etc and you may have a salvageable fun project.

The pair of gauges in the center console mount appear to be VEI single display gauges. They are not exactly eBay trash, but I and several others have found the senders to be problematic.

Gotcha. I was looking at that on my phone while doubled-over in gastrointestinal pain earlier, couldn't quite tell what it was.

I'll just re-state what's already been said. If this were my car, I'd go down one of two paths:

1: Rip out every single bit of aftermarket wiring and hardware, repair all the damage to the factory harness, and try to get it running on the stock ECU, or

2: Rip out every single bit of aftermarket wiring and hardware, repair all the damage to the factory harness, and try to get it running on a Megasquirt.


Option 2 is there only because I am extremely experienced with the Megasquirt, and feel comfortable with them.

But the basics remain the same. Every single wire on that car which wasn't there when it left the factor would come out first, and the damage left behind repaired, before I ever even thought about turning the key.

Let me make one last observation:
Being a "HARDCORE *insert other car make here* 'ER" is going to hurt you more than help you. Here's why: you're set in your ways.. You can tell us you're humble, and open minded, but in reality this is almost never the case.

The last handful of guys just like you, most of them never delivered. I can find the threads, I can quote their posts, they all talked a big game, they all had hopes and dreams, and all of them were dead set on doing things their own way. Here's the kicker: ALL OF THEM posted the "cool cars" they built in the past trying to impress us.

Want the spoiler alert? most of them amounted to nothing, and quietly stopped posting and then we saw their For Sale threads.

I really hope you don't turn out this way, but it's not promising at this point.

In fact, this is such a common occurrence at this point, that I'm going to save this post just so I can repost it for the next guy, just like you, that will have the same thread, with the same cars, and the same "hardcore *insert other make her* 'er". It will be so similar, I won't even have to change the post.

Good luck ;)

I think that you stating the obvious here... I went as far as saying that I am NOT being objective!


I will attempt to get the car running off boost on factory ECU (only) to make sure that everything is OK. Then, I will address the boosted engine management.

Yes mathew that's mine. Only part on the car that looks nice :giggle:

OP, you seem a bit more reasonable than you originally came off.

Running it on ECUlink would suck if the engine won't run on stock ecu. Get it running on the stock ecu then its just a matter of a spreadsheet just like you said.

I don't know about the 1.8 (I'll check in a bit) but the 1.6 megasquirt actually uses the 4G63 ignition trigger algorithm

Welcome, Leon R. Check out the Miata Gallery and post up some pics!

All '90-'97 Miata Megasquirts use the 4G63.

Until the MS2 came out, we also used to retrofit the 4G63-style pickup onto the newer engines as well.

That said, unless the OP is already intimately familiar with both Megasquirt and the use of a dual-channel oscilloscope, I would not recommend attempting to install MS on a non-running car with a butchered wiring harness. Start with OEM, and move from there.

sounds like a good plan :)

New Member from Mass - Interesting Turbo Miata
 

1g, but technically a GVR4 with matching engine harness.

Good job on the other builds, no small feat there on the AWD Spyder. We did a couple at the shop and said fuck it, there's an easier way to make a living lol.

11 second minivan. Hahahaha. I like you OP! (Take that however you wish, this is a Miata forum).

Takes guts to work on a Triumph too. Haven't seen one of those wedges in forever.

What Joe said. It's the way forward. Clean Miata IMHO. Especially for MA.

actually I really like that van too lol

I think I may have actually met this person. Come to the next devens event and I'll tell you the DSM link idea is bad to your face. 4G63 swap might actually be less work, just a wide block + early B2600 R-series tranny + some welding + factory dsm engine wiring.

Summit has been tremendous fun car! Beyond my wildest expectations!


Here are some videos of it in action:








Wide block with B2600 tranny is so 2005 ;) Bill Hitcher has made an adaptor to attach narrow block 4G63 to just about EVERY popular RWD transmission! At 1/3 the price of other vendors!

The lesson here is that if anyone driving a minivan ever challenges you to a race, politely decline.

But what if you're in a minivan too? ;)

So long as it's this one:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1444796237

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1444796237

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1444796237

(1995 Renault Espace, with an 800hp Renault F1 engine / transmission / suspension.)





Unrelated: these folks have welded the majority of two LS1 engines together to make a 9 liter V12:



No idea if they have one up and running yet.

You should see the little 4 banger they make from the scrap.

I'm pretty sure I've seen them both run, though it's been a few years. One was a black suburban.


This
The "LS12" - Inside Scoop On the V12 LS Engine - Corvette Online

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1444796975

Why didn't they make a V16?

Can you imagine the sound inside that F1 minivan?

This thread is winning!

OK guys, the E Manage is out. I can’t say that I was happy with the way it was installed (I saw all type of electrical connections: solder, crimp and vampire clips...) but that is all undone now. Prior to removing it, I would get a quick spark whenever I put key in the “ON” position, but there would be no spark while I am cranking. Now that E Manage is out, I get no such initial spark and it is still not sparking when cranking.


This leads me to a two questions:

Is that initial spark an E manage thing or all Miata’s do this?
I suspect that ECU must get a signal from CAS in order to fire coils and fuel injectors, while cranking. How can I test if ECU is getting that signal?


Thanks

It is not normal for the ECU to generate an initial spark at power-on. I can't speak to whether E-Manage ECUs cause this.




Do you have spark and / or fuel while cranking? If so, the ECU is getting the CAS signal. If not, the ECU is probably* not getting it.

Does the fuel pump at least prime when you turn the key on? (You should be able to hear fuel flowing through the pressure regulator at the back of the fuel rail.)

No, there is no priming of fuel pump or any fuel in the return house hose. I suspect that ECU might be fried. I might take it apart and look for some obvious damage.

Where is MPI relay on a Miata?

Voltage was most certainly was interrupted to the coils. It was going through the Emanage first, so that could account for the initial spark. But if ECU was dead, there would be no further sparking. Injector triggers were tapped in parallel, so they never completely interrupted the wire.


Edit: Now that I think about it, there is no CE light, which I assume, must appear when you first turn on the key. So yet another indication that ECU is not righit.