AMS tuning... advice????
 

I have an appointment at Automotosports (AMS) August 10th for a full tune.

1). Is there anything they should know that is Miata/Megasquirt specific before I go? They specialize in EVOs but they say they can work with a Megasquirt easily. I don't want to spend hundreds extra if I can simply supply them with some preliminary info.

2). Can someone please print screen their "engine constants" window with 460cc inj on a 1.8l?

just wanna make sure everything goes as smooth as possible on the 10th... THANKS!!

While AMS specializes in EVOs, they work on all makes, and are building a Nissan GTR practice as well. They have done several Miata's with MS before (including mine) and have created a small database of MSQ files for Miatas. Chris (tuner) is reasonably well versed in MS. However, you don't want to pay him to go through each screen and type in values!

Make sure you have upgraded the firmware to what you need. I assume you have replaced the MAF with an IAT, so make sure the firmware is updated for that.

I can send you my engine constants (or entire MSQ if you want) when I get home tonight if you want ( 420 CC injectors, MS PNP 9495, 1.8, T2554 turbo, '99 head). Not sure if this is close enough to your set up to be of help......

How much HP are you expecting?

I got my car tuned there by Chris, he only charged me $1200 for two tunes, one gas, one race gas, $900 for one map tune. I know last time I was in there shop they said they bought a Miata with a Megasquirt.

Here ya go - from MS PNP - configured for 420 CC injectors - hope this helps!

My miata is there right now. They just finished tunning my new GT30 turbo =)

i have been running on my own street tune for a while now at 6psi so all of my values are functioning properly.

the engine constants are easy to calc out but i wanted to double check to see if i made any major errors... before i sent my 460s to deatschwerks my engine would just flood with key on and my coils were fried (brain typed in a wrong value in the MS i got from him grrr lol) but that problem was resolved.

i am expecting anywhere between 230-250hp at 12psi from my 2560R... ill be happy if its even 229.99 hp as long as its a safe daily tune u know?

how much did it cost you? ill let you know how broke i am after tomorrow... hahaha my dyno time starts at 8:30am $$$$$$$$$$$

how much power did you get out of that gt30? at what psi?

Good luck yo, in for 1st test ride post tune :D

Why do I fell like there are more nice chicago miata that I never knew about...

Update your locations :p

lol @ $900 for 3-hours of work at the most, if the tuner is retarded and blind. I tuned my car after reading and asking questions, the first time I've ever attempted to tune a car on a dyno, and was done in 90-minutes. If you're taking a car in there which doesn't run with no work at all on fuel tables or enrichments then I'd probably charge you $900 too.

As for the "race fuel" tune, the tuner is literally going to add 3-6* of spark in the detonation limited cells and see if there's an increase in output from your base tune...so an additional $300 for ~3-pulls with more spark angle sounds a little expensive to me too.

What does AMS call a "map tune"?

I know AMS is increadibly ganxter, but that's way too expensive.

Chris Black is one of the most respected tuners in the business, it cost that much because of who he is most likely. 900 is steep, but it includes all the time it takes him to tune it, also, knowing your motor is in good hands.

My car was tuned by the most respected e-thug on the planet and it was $100 and I promise you his car won't be any faster than any turbo car I or Savington tuned. I respect the craft and understand that I'm a novice...but $1200 is the MoTec/Patek/M&M price. MS is a 1-hour job.

Why is he so respectable? I'm asking a genuine question...why is he so well respected? I don't know the guy.

In for results and final cost on this one. I'm curious to see how good these tunes are.

Define "good."

How much power can be squeezed out of each particular setup at a certain amount of boost. Reliability as well but we might have to wait on that one.

Not because I want to bring my car there, I'm just curious.

For now, I'm sticking with the butt dyno and when I get some, the patented hustler det can method so I can get it close and not spend a shit ton of money.

I think Chris's resume speaks for its self:

Tuned the following to name a few:
2009 Redline Time Attack Unlimited AWD championship car
2008 Sport Compact Car Ultimate Street Car Challenge Winner
World's Highest horsepower Evo 1181 AWHP
4 seasons on the Original Ams 2.3 Stroker Engine!
2009 CMRC Champion
Tuned Winner of the 'Top Car Challange by Castrol, made 1035 hp on non-leaded pump
As well as over 1000 other cars

EDIT: Went on their website and it now says $235 hr for tuning, rather than a flat rate. Also, I like them because they're factory trained and certified in the AEM EMS.

http://www.amsperformance.com/dynotuning_rates.php

You should show up to our little meets sometimes. :giggle:

That's the only one that matters. Hopefully he compensates for the stretchy timing-belt and shitty 2-tooth wheel.

Those are some impressive accolades but at the same time HKSturboMiata is having an issue with the motor they built with 1500 miles on it so the verdict isn't in yet.

Just saying.

easy fellas! the only reason why im willing to pay so much for a tune is that this car is my DD and i am still learning MS / tunerstudio... my next turbo project will be 100% DIY. besides, i heard many many many good things about chris at AMS.

new spark plugs in... check
tools in trunk Justin Case... check
extra zip ties... check
japanese friend to fit hands in tight places... check
football to kill time with said friend... check

WISH ME (or my motor) LUCK!!!

$900+ for a tune sounds way to high with MS. I know when I had Jerry @ DIYAutoTune tune my car 2 years ago I paid about 400$ for my tune. I figure when my built motor is running correctly it will be a little more then that to get re-tuned, but that will be because I am going for a good bit more power and have a more complicated setup.

AMS > DIY

Let me know when DIY does GTR.

lol @ the haters :D

RESULTS ARE IN with said setup... keep in mind its a MUSTANG dyno blahhhh

213 whp
191 tq

torque is a table top from 3400 rpm to redline
12.5 psi reached by 3400 rpm

1.5 hours = $352.50 :) :) :)

Nice numbers, did AMS change their dyno? It was a dynojet before.

Good price and good equipment. How far "back" are you from MBT or detonation? You're still 20whp under FM's advertised FMII output numbers...which is typical for every FMII car I've seen on a dyno. Still, its a fast car though.

Didn't take them long, thats for sure.
Did they tell you what was holding you back from making higher numbers???

as far as the dyno, it said mustang dyno on it... they have a new location in west chicago, moved from arlington heights.

as for detonation, i told him to put it at a safe DD tune, so he did and said he has no worries... he also said it was a clean pull the whole time and ran well. but he did say if i am ever on a road course to put like 100 octane gas in there... but i wont be on a road course.... FOR A WHILE :)

That's what I was waiting for. Not too shabby. Time wise and price wise, that sounds pretty reasonable. Congrats!

Now HKSturboMiata needs to post his numbers so we can see what that silly GT30 does.

When someone pays them to? Why do you say they are necessarily better?

arctct can you post your timing chart and the actual dyno graph? I am curious as to what it is running compared to what DIY got on my 94.

I'd still like to know their interpretation of "safe" in terms of retard from MBT.

goofy shitty quality vid

thanks shane! yeah bad quality but a video nonetheless... wow it jumps passed 60mph so quickly even when rolling onto boost in 3rd at 3000rpm! so much better than stock.

I am curious what is done in a tuning session. Several dyno runs. Data log then VE analyze? Do they run a WB O2 in the tailpipe? It would be sweet to take video of the process.

They first get fuel dialed in, then start adding spark until they see no increase in output or get detonation. Then, hopefully they roll spark back to compensate for heat-soak, timing belt stretch, and general inaccuracy of a two-tooth trigger. I don't know that any real "secrets" or magic exists in tuning, its all pretty simple from what I've seen; a good tuner looks at limiting factors that can lead to detonation and put a large enough buffer in that you'll never see it. I could add another 6* of spark accross the board on my spark table but considering everything I've listed I can hang the tach at 6krpm in 6th and not worry about the engine coming apart.

Most of the time "tuners" shove the WB in the tail pipe, post cat, and guess how effective the cat converter is. I wouldn't dare do this on a track car with a cat.

i've ran a downpipe mounted wbo2 along with a dyno provided wide band in the tail pipe, and the difference is in the tenths of a point. plus, most of the dyno's use a copper tube sniffer that gets shoved way up in there, so the difference in negligible. plus, any tuner can compensate a couple tenths afr for a tailpipe o2 sniffer. if it blows because of that, it was waayyyy to lean to begin with. i've done 3 personal track cars like this ranging from 200 to 400whp, without a single problem. and know of atleast 10 other cars that were tuned like that and run perfectly. many of them run nasa time trials or wheel to wheel.

not trying to bust your balls, but i hate mis-information on the net, and especially on forums i like. also it's pretty ridiculous to assume that because you tuned your own personal car, (only 1 car at that) that it's easy.

I know I could run a little more spark angle in every cell, but I can run the car to the rev-limit in 6th and I'm confident it won't detonate. When I picked-up my engine from the machinist he gave me a stern talking-to about tuning and his definition of a "safe" tune, and then showed me a handful of motors that ran a season on light detonation which they didn't see on the dyno and thought was tuned-out by a tuner that everyone get's excited over because all his NDRA wins and pieces of paper from EFI University. This is why I ask people how much spark they pulled from MBT or detonation because I believe that is the real safety-measure.

If I had a proper trigger wheel I'd put 3* of spark back into it. I don't trust the timing belt, the 2-tooth wheel, nor the heat-soak. I've also checked AFR on 3-dynos and determined from the Exatorq/Mustang dyno that my LC-1 is .1 leaner than reality when measured from the calibration gas. When compared to the LC-1, there was a .4 difference on the DD in Austin, no difference on the Exatorq Mustang in Garland, and 1.5 difference from BEGi's dyno (at the San Marcos shop) to reality.

I don't think tuning is "easy", nor do I think I'm an anywhere near an expert, but I affirm that tuning fuel and spark is not a black-art or mystery. Its a straightforward set of rules and allowances for the shortcomings of MS and the Miata electronics. I've tuned 4-total FI cars as favors for friends and they're all still running.

watching chris tune my car was pretty interesting. he does these weird routines with the throttle at different rpm, makes a change, then does some other rhythmic routine... its not til later do the redline pulls happen... you can really tell its his day job lol

So care to post a dyno plot and a spark table?

i will... ill post my whole msq for the guys looking for a base map with a similar setup... ill grab the msq when i change my spark dwell time for my brand spanking fresh COPs :drool:

i gotta scan the dyno chart, tried to photograph it... epic FAIL

Ask AMS to email you an electronic copy.

Attachment 18009

here is the .msq from c.black @ AMS

lemme know if you see something weird.

Attachment 18022

remember, this is a mustang dyno... with somewhat conservative ignition

it was about 90 degrees that day and about 100000000% humidity haha

Uhm....23 degrees at 100 kpa? and 22 at 84? I havn't tuned a FI car yet, but am I the only one who thinks thats extra conservative?