Brain DIYPNP map on MSPNP2
 

95 Miata, MSPNP2, stock injectors

This is kind of branching out from my startup issue thread but was it's own issue in itself so I made this thread.

So I have my car set up on the basemap and it's running well aside from a few small issues. I started out with the base map found here MegaSquirtPNP by DIYAutoTune.com
Now onto the issue.. This basemap uses a req_fuel value of 11.2 when it should really be 5.5, and everything has pretty much been tuned in using this value.. what do I do? I feel like I have a few options.

Option 1 is to try and correct the tune I have and properly set the req_fuel value to 5.5 and then double the VE table and try to adjust things from there.

Option 2 is to update my MS and load the Braineack map from scratch. I feel like this would be my best option because the settings seem better when I look at the tune in TunerStudio. The basemap I have been working with is still using batch injection also. Again however, I have an issue in that this tune was made for a DIYPNP using his instructions. Here is the warning on his site, "They are specifically developed to work in conjunction with my specific documentation, so if you did not use the same inputs and outputs as outlined in my assembly documentation (e.g., using DIYAUTOTUNE's pinout), then these maps won't work out-of-the-box for you." So would I be able to use it without issues on my MSPNP2? I know nothing about building MS boards so I'm sorry if this should be common sense..

What would be my best option here? Sorry I've gotten myself into such a mess. http://www.msextra.com/forums/images...on_redface.gif I appreciate any help from you guys.

Thanks

Why do you think req_fuel should be 5.5 and not 11.2?

I guess it doesn't HAVE to be 5.5 but that's what the calculator spits out when I put in the correct info (basemap says I have a 2.0 and 0cc injectors which is where 11.2 came from.) When I upgrade my injectors I'd like the values to be correct. As I mentioned there are some other things brains map has such as sequential that mine didn't start with. But either way, I just want to switch to a Braineack basemap but didn't know if the inputs and outputs would work for my MSPNP2...

Double check your info then. I get 11.9 when I plug in 1.8L, 4 cyl, 254 cc/min, 14.7 AFR. You say the car is running well on the basemap, which means that the req_fuel is good. If you had injectors that required a req_fuel of 5.5, but you were using the basemap with a req_fuel of 11.2, then you'd be running too rich for the engine to run.

What's the reasoning for switching to Braineack's basemap? Is it only because of the req_fuel issue? If the car runs well, then you don't need to switch base maps. A base map is just that, a tool to get the motor to run, but you will still have the same amount of tuning to do whether you use the MSPNP basemap or Brain's basemap, except you will have more work because you'll have to change all the inputs/outputs for your ECU.

If there is a good reason for using Brain's basemap, I would use the map you currently have, and copy/paste the maps that you desire from Brain's map into your current map. But this still doesn't make sense. If the engine is running, just tune it.

​​​​​​Maybe I miscalculated something somehow then. I'll have to check and see what I did when I get home to my computer. Really the only things I wanted from brains basemap are small things like battery voltage correction things, deadtime, etc even though my values are pretty close. That was my other idea, just to take some of the settings from brains tune and plug them into mine. Specifically his sequential injection settings since my tune is using batch

you should probably do that. for example, i use certain inputs and outputs for the a/c and fan controls; no clue if they match your mspnp2.

Right on Brain. Thanks! Other than manually copying the values the bootleg way (the way j do everything) by taking a screenshot and then punching in values, is there a way to export and import tables quickly?

you can import/export most the tables.

otherwise, you can open two instances of TS, one with each tune, and go window by window.

You can just copy and paste (control c and v). I would assume if you had 2 instances of TS open with each tune, you can just select the table and copy/paste it to the other one. If you ever need to scale a map or anything, you can even just select the map, copy it, and paste it into Excel. Then just copy/paste it back to TS.

why is this so complicated?
calculating the the required fuel in MS2 would have to be the easiest thing out.
they even give you the choice. Metric or imperial.

engine size 1839cc or 112.2 CID
Injector size 253cc or 24.1 lb/hr
No of Injectors 4

size of injectors is perhaps debatable depending on what source you are using....but a few cc....are not going to make a huge difference. Here is where i got most of my info from.Fuel Injectors - Miata Turbo FAQ
on that note...I admire you just for the fact that you've managed to get yourself around the tune with all the other bits. Like injector dead time & voltage compensation correction....and so on

my basemap is a much better starting point than the mspnp2 basemap.

Haha I told you to just copy settings over!

Yes I've noticed that after comparing the crappy tune I started with to yours -_- too bad outputs would be wacky if I tried to use it from scratch

Sorry RTC 🙃

I understand this.. I just must have missed a number or something when I punched it into the calculator. The only thing I'm not sure of is if Cranking PW needs to change after req fuel is changed due to Injectors being upgraded.

Quick question. Why are your Idle Valve values while cranking so much higher than your "Idle Valve Open Duty". Also with your cranking PW and 10 degree cranking advance I was getting some kickback. Any ideas? Lean it out, less advance?

Cranking pulsewidth is a percentage of the req_fuel. So if you have the car tuned for stock injectors and a req_fuel of 11.2, then upgrade to larger injectors with say a req_fuel of 5, then your cranking pulsewidths will be appropriately lower. You may need to tune a little bit to account for different spray patterns and resolution at low pulsewidths, but it'll get you close enough.

So for example right now with my 11.2 req fuel, if I set my cranking PW to 100% across the board, I would have an 11.2ms pulse width? 200% would be 22.4ms? Not that it matters but just confirming.

stick with their settings for those for now...

Haha well it's more my settings now rather than theirs but I still get some kickback with 5 deg advance and a crank PW curve that has been flattened quite a bit. Will try 0 deg timing and maybe bring a little bit of fuel back

Hm. What exactly is kickback? I advanced timing for the stock injectors, but the mustang injectors didn't really like starting up today. I have to play with a few things, but I wonder if they just don't like the timing.

While cranking, it's basically detonation, except at cranking RPM the detonation has enough power to stop the crank or even knock it in the opposite direction which I don't assume is super great on my starter

Fair point. Most of us can perhaps be accused of that somewhere while tuning. I suppose if you had the wrong starting number with the original injectors its a good chance you have to change that. I don't recall what I did exactly when I installed the Rx8 injectors. I do know I did go back at one stage there for a while & played around with it. I don't recall if that was before or after. I also changed to flex fuel around the same time. If I'm really unsure I usually leave a note to what it was on the setting. If it all goes pair shape I then refer to those notes.or just revert to a previous tune. 'lMy Flex fuel cranking PW is a bit different to my Premium fuel one.I haven't reverted back to premium gas to find out if it makes a difference.

this could be fault of a lot of things... too much fuel during cranking can do this, spark outputs being incorrect can do it, etc.

You may have to elaborate on these "lots of things." Car refused to start this morning in the 45 degree weather. Was getting kickback as usual so set timing to 0 degrees advance. Still kicking back. Played with cranking PW, moved it up and down but didn't seem to affect it starting too much because it would just keep kicking back.. WTF!!! Had to drive a CRV to school today. The Miata is my daily so I can't really have it refusing to start if it gets a little chilly.

I took a datalog of it but I cant upload it right now because my school turned their WiFi off. Will upload it ASAP along with my tune or at least the one I have saved and revert back to. Thinking about just pulling the MS and putting the stock ECU back until I figure out wtf I'm doing :(

kickback is not normal, have you had it since initial install, or since changes hundreds of settings?

the cranking advance is not your key to victory here -- i think my maps have it something like 18°, not sure why you keep retarding it.

​​​​​​IIRC it's been doing it since day 1. I've been retarding it hoping it will make any kind of difference. Trying to remove a possible cause.

I will probably try and verify my spark timing again today if I can start the car when it warms up..

Since I still can't upload my datalog or tune, I've got a question I want to confirm. Occasionally after this umm.. kickback, I get an error message on my laptop and I have to power cycle the megasquirt to get it to work again. I'm guessing​ this is from the CAS moving backwards when it kicks, giving the MS a reading that it doesn't know how to deal with?

Does the car start in flood clear mode? I.e. with the throttle pressed all the way down at startup?

And just to confirm, it had no issues starting up on the stock ECU right? Can you post a log of the behavior and your current tune?

The only issue it had on the stock ECU was difficulty with hot starts on occasion which I'm not the only one with that issue. As of this morning it would not try to start in flood clear mode. Here is a data log and tune. However the fuel settings at cranking in the data log may have been a bit different than in my tune (was moving the curve to try and get it to start), but everything else should match.

Is your tune currently brain's basemap on your ecu or your basemap modified using brain's map as a guide?

Neither although last night I made a tune using some settings from brains basemap. As of right now I haven't "borrowed" any settings. The tune I made last night I was going to test today. I'm about to go try and start the car now that it's warm. Will data log

Ok.... so something is definitely wrong. The car started up and was acting like it was running on... less than normal cylinders. I have it on video and will upload it if needed. It smoothed out (a little) after idling for 15 seconds or so. Pulled out and took it easy just to warm it up than once it was warmed up I started getting on the throttle a bit more. The exhaust note was still not the consistent hum it usually is. Close, but not normal. It was kind of rumbly, almost like subaru style, as if it was on 3.. wtf. So I came back to the house, power cycled, and this start seemed better. Took it out for a drive and it was back to normal...WTF!! This has not the first time this happened. The thrid time actually. One one of the first couple days I installed the megasquirt I had a similar experience, except much worse. This time the difference in sound/power was somewhat noticeable but if I wasn't listening for it I wouldn't have noticed, but the first and second time this happened, it was DEFINITE. Sounded exactly like this (NOT MY CAR) https I pulled over, shut the car off, started it back up and it seemed fine. Pretty much the same procedure as today.. How is this possible? It's almost like one of the injectors is not getting signal to open until I restart everything....

Something about my car/MS is definitely not normal.

Datalogs and tune included. One running on almost three, the other running normally, or at least as normal as it has on the MS.

Just a wild guess,

your cranking is set at 500. Your cranking in real life is somewhere around 190..... see if the cranking rpm will make a difference. Although muine is a NA I have an NB starter motor. Mine is set at 220 set yours at 250 or 300?

Ill lower it, but I can't even begin to see how my cranking speed setting would effect running issues

Just saw your above post....I somehow missed this was for a Toyota.
I didn;t realise you had started it.

My apologies

Oh that's not my car, I was just using it as an example as to how my exhaust sounds when I have this strange issue.. which these strange issues just keep slapping me in the face out of nowhere as they come and go, seemingly at random with no solution. So far they include: car turns into a Subaru due to 3 cylinders running, starter kicks back at 0 degree advance, we will see what they throw at me tomorrow.

Other things Ive noticed. I hope you don't mind.

In the fuel calculation , you've set the required fuel to 11.2 ms. thats fine.

would it make a difference if you actually filled out all the the proper settings.
like fuel flow of your injectors & correct engine size?

In your trigger angle offset you are running -2.00

I have fastly different settings, but my CAS is set dead on 10 deg BFDC. and trigger offset is like 13 deg. In my case I have some long duration cams.which would make some difference
I know this is exactly what youve been talking about.....but thats really odd.

In Idle control,
\your valve mode is inverted. rather than normal.
But your valve settings are standard
closed at 32.9
open at 61.9

so the valve is working i reverse or that's how I understand it

I might be talking shit......hopefully not. Thats just what I noticed

No need to be sorry :) I don't think it would make a difference as long as req fuel is close. And if I'm correct, trigger angle is simply how many degrees from TDC the "trigger" is. So if I were to rotate my CAS 2 degrees and set it to 0, it would be the same.

Ive questioned that myself. Probably just the way the board was assembled.. it works so I don't really question it anymore haha

The valve setting is like that on the DIY auto tune basemap. It was like this with my map as well. I changed it & it started idling much better.

I don't have the technical knowledge like you with compensating things. like one thing is the same as the other.Yes I understand there is 10 different ways to do one thing.

If this was me....I would stop compensating. or changing things go to the basics. If you are a practiced tuner....that's different.

save your current map.
start a new project.
insert all the correct numbers in the fuel calculation
set your CAS at 10 deg
set your trigger angle at 10
do the trigger wizzard
start with open loop warm up
change the valve mode to normal
adjust your valve frequency to your correct idle yours is currently set at 480.....seems a little high Mine is at 180 something....
lower your cranking RPM a bit
If you get it going.....and its Ok get the idle stable.
if then you choose to go closed loop. do the Idle valve test

Its going to take you 15 minutes. If its the same as before.....your allowed to sledge me openly.

if it works there are some good articles on setting closed loop idle settings which are very understandable compared to the instructions of MS.

I found getting the idle valve to run correctly made the car run so much better overall......even though it only supposed to affect the idle.

IMHO.....getting the valve correct at the beginning.....will make things so much nicer in the long run with the tune

Theres never been anything wrong with the valve... It's worked fine since day.. uhhh.. 2 when I set it up lol. So youre telling me to completely start over and tune in the settings until I have what is basically the same tune I have now?? How is that supposed to fix my issues? I had this 3 cylinder issue on the basemap before I even made any real changes.

Out of curiosity, does your car have any electrical issues right now? I.e. are the lights inside, headlights, radio, etc all turning on?

No, not that I've noticed at least

that's not the issue. 500rpm is fine -- the lower it is, the harder time youll have in the cold. but 500rpm is probably the upper limit.


from the "oddlog" it's running REALLLY rich when you start it up

That's probably because of my weird ASE.. but idk. If a spark plug was failing to fire and the fuel was not burning, would that cause the gauge to read rich?.. Just a thought. It was definetely NOT a normal startup on the "oddlog" going back to that whole weird 3 cylinder thing

Also just for an update, I have removed the MS from my car so that I can reliably get around, but will happily put it back in and get back to tuning once I have an idea of which settings I need to work with to resolve this intermittent issue, and when I have the time. :facepalm:

I'm still kind of stuck here. What do I do now? Has anyone with more experience than I looked over my tune for anything that might be incorrect? Is it possible I could have some faulty electrical wizardry going on with my board or is that too far of a stretch?

Bump. Can anyone check my tune for an error that could be causing issues? I'd like to get this tuned out

The main things I see in the cold start log you posted:

Are the temperture readings correct? Maybe Indiana's having a really cold May, but make sure those numbers are accurate.
You may also need to adjust the cold cranking pulse widths.
Your battery is nearly dead.
I'd turn off closed loop idle control until you are further along in the tuning process.

The weather has been insane lately. Temps and everything have been correct for the most part. So you think my crank PW is too low? I lowered it to try and sort out the kickback issue I've been mentioning. Also most likely the battery needs replaced, the cold drains it as well which is probably why it is so low. Thanks for the response. Could low battery effect the way my injectors are acting up