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Cranking and ASE tuning
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I am not understanding the cranking pulse theory. I have taken a ridiculous amount of fuel out, and I still open the throttle to start. Do I start at zero?
When ASE blips on ultra-momentarily during cranking over 300rpm, does it flip to that map? Start attempts: 1, 2, third using throttle. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1351694506 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1351694506 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1351694506https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1351039814 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1351039814 . |
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most recent drop to 30% cranking did not save to msq, but it and log are attached.
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The engine uses the cranking pulse width below the cranking RPM setting (which defaults to 300, but you can move it if the engine blips above that when cranking) and above that RPM will transition to the main VE table multiplied by the total of the WUE and AE values.
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That is important information. I understood that the cranking RPM was when the table switched to run, but I hadn't thought that it would switch the fuel abruptly. Should the cranking rpm be adjusted to the max rpm seen while just cranking?
Does this mean adding a row below 1000 is necessary to help transition to running? This area will never get VEAL, so it would require manually inputting values between cranking PW and VE? |
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Thanks for responding Matt.
I raised cranking rpm to 550 and it seemed to change things. Nice comfortable temperature this afternoon so I dropped cranking down to 20% and worked my way up to 60% where it started without throttle. Still not a perfect start, but better. I see differences between logs, but still not sure what is changing what. 60% Attachment 185726 55% Attachment 185727 20% Attachment 185728 Req fuel=11.9 Stock 1999 injectors https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1351128816 |
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Originally Posted by 3rdCarMX5
(Post 942891)
Should the cranking rpm be adjusted to the max rpm seen while just cranking?
Does this mean adding a row below 1000 is necessary to help transition to running? This area will never get VEAL, so it would require manually inputting values between cranking PW and VE? OP, where are you getting your cranking pulse values? The values in the DIY base map are a good place to start. Mine are tweaked only slightly from those and nowhere in my cranking table is there a value less than 100%. After you turn the key it shouldn't take any longer than whir-whir-whir-start. Should not need any throttle, and if you step on the pedal too much (I think the default is 70% TPS) it will go into flood clear mode (no fuel injected). https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1351134551 |
Originally Posted by ScottFW
(Post 943111)
OP, where are you getting your cranking pulse values? The values in the DIY base map are a good place to start. Mine are tweaked only slightly from those and nowhere in my cranking table is there a value less than 100%. After you turn the key it shouldn't take any longer than whir-whir-whir-start. Should not need any throttle, and if you step on the pedal too much (I think the default is 70% TPS) it will go into flood clear mode (no fuel injected).
With that much fuel, I had to crank first, then crank with flood clear mode engaged for it to catch and start. That, plus many cranking threads referring to starting 'low' ended me with the bonehead numbers above. Past few weeks I had been cranking at 50% and still having to slightly crack the throttle, maybe 10%, to start. |
Should I read more on idle air valve?
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Just went back to normal settings, using ScottFW's above.
What to do? Is this sync loss something to be concerned with? Attachment 185719 Attachment 185720 Attachment 185721 Attachment 185722 Attachment 185723 |
Started crapily this afternoon, now I can't get it to start. Wtf
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It has officially been an hour of cranking.
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I am wanting to pull a techsalvager on my MS
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please have a look at the log and MSQ. I have another log that is over the upload size limit.
Here is something I thought of while driving home in a borrowed car: I made changes to the VE table in the upper RPM range since I planned to autotune. I do not believe that I ever power-cycled the MS. Could have been my problem?? I tried varying the cranking value to no avail. I even tried starter spray. :crx: |
You will never start with sync loss 32. Look it up.
Change your settings from falling edge to rising edge, or the other way around. I bet it starts right up. |
Originally Posted by 3rdCarMX5
(Post 944222)
You will never start with sync loss 32. Look it up.
Change your settings from falling edge to rising edge, or the other way around. I bet it starts right up. Paging Braineak: I remember us changing something about the rising/falling stuff earlier this year while trouble shooting something else. I'll look through the emails. :brain: |
Brain, am I allowed to change the rising/falling edge setting? Any other thoughts?
Check out 3rdcar's thread: https://www.miataturbo.net/megasquir...ranking-67806/ I see both sych losses going back to logs when I first got the car running on MS. This must be the reason why I have been having issues cranking. Does not synch loss after start. Only while cranking. 31 = Miata 99-00 - 2 cams not seen 32 = Miata 99-00 - 0 cams seen Seems like the only threads where moving the sensor closer is necessary is when the synch losses occur while driving. Seen a few threads where it is purely software settings. Promising... |
To get the sync loss resolved, could you get a composite log of an attempted start, and attach the whole file to a post?
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Originally Posted by Matt Cramer
(Post 945135)
To get the sync loss resolved, could you get a composite log of an attempted start, and attach the whole file to a post?
This will help a lot. Please do the above (screen shot it if you can right now, I cant open a composite log here) But please refresh my memory: You have an Ms2 w/harness for your '99, right, and not a black DIYPNP box? If so I built the AbeFM inputs, so you need Falling Edge, not Rising. The map you posted appears to be on rising. Looking at your logs I can tell it's the sync loss that's causing all the havoc. |
Thanks Matt and brain.
I do not have a recent composite log. Next time I will be around the car is the 10th. I will flip from rising to falling edge and log all the things. Correct, I have a ms2 with harness for my 99, and not a black diypnp box. |
okay, i believe that's the issue then. Report back, Private.
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Originally Posted by Matt Cramer
(Post 945135)
To get the sync loss resolved, could you get a composite log of an attempted start, and attach the whole file to a post?
I changed from Rising to Falling Edge. Same result with 31 and 32 errors. Did I throw off the timing completely turning the engine over by hand when I removed this pulley (piece of my old supercharger)???? https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1352640486 after removal https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1352640486 |
once you click start, you need to crank for about 15-20seconds.
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I'll be able to try again tomorrow.
I'm being overly paranoid about rotating the engine by hand to reach the Hex bolts, right? |
Nice VE table, lolol:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1351128816 |
Focus on my other inadequacies
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Are you running without bolts on the crank pulley?
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Originally Posted by 3rdCarMX5
(Post 948687)
Are you running without bolts on the crank pulley?
Uhhhhhhhh..... yes....... Oh boy. Seriously? |
:facepalm:
Is it likely I damaged anything? |
Are these something I can grab at hardware store?
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You need high grade bolts of a specific length. You sheared the pin, but shouldn't be any permanent damage.
You will need to make sure you re-align the pin with the hole to line up the crank trigger wheel. |
buy arp bolts for the crank pulley from flyin miata if you need new ones.
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https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1352723706
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1352723706 It is making sense now. The pin is there as a guide to make sure the timing marks are in the right spot. This should be relatively easy: take off the accessory belts, line up the pulley and bolt down. The arp bolts are $20 from FM. Ordering this morning. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1352723706 |
Be very careful installing those. They don't get much torque. I found TWO of mine broke when I did the timing belt and was able to extract one of the broken bits. So far it's holding on three and the pin.
Mike |
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this is with rising edge or falling? i see that it's seeing your signals in a good pattern...
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This is falling. We originally had it rising.
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Today it started, but ran poor. Seemed down on cylinders or timing way off.
It was goofy: went back to rising, logged a rough non start, flipped to falling and it showed encouragement and started with a cracked throttle. I'll post up some more details in a few minutes. |
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This is the log of it 'running.' Falling edge.
I do notice sync 32 is gone, and secL resets and at times holds constant. I don't recall the significance of the secL, read something about it a few weeks ago. Guess I did not line up things correctly? Pictures to follow. Attachment 185704 |
The crank trigger wheel can go on two ways, you need to make sure the wheel is on right or you will be a large degree out of sync. If it has been the same way the whole time it is probably right.
The dirty thing is the sensor and the proximity matters. |
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By two ways, do you mean flipping it? Nothing really seemed to line up with hole 'B.'
It appears I did put it in upside down: the rusty side of the wheel should be facing the rusty side of the pulley. Shiny ring side of the pulley should face the crank. I might have even made that shiny ring while cranking with these pieces loose.. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1354536782
Originally Posted by 94mx5red
(Post 955261)
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1354479507
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1354479507 |
Yes, I meant flipping it over. The teeth do not line up symmetrically with the pin.
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Holy fuck, it runs!
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thank god! so the issue was the timing wheel?
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Per flyinmiata the factory torque spec is 109 - 152 inch/lb on the pulley bolts.
Does the sensor use a magnet or something? https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1355006623 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1355006623 |
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