EBC Not Working
 

I have read through all the threads on EBC and cant find a resolution to my problem.
Can someone finally put this issue to rest for me?

I have a DIY PNP (MS2) built by Braineack around a year ago and the EBC from DIY autotune website. The EBC is wired correctly to the outlet on the side of the ECU (4 pin connector). I have changed all sorts of settings in tunerstudio to get this thing to work. From enabling the device to chaging the tabloe figures. It appears that the EBC is not working at all. Same result everytime no matter what the settings are set to. I just simply hit Overboost when doing a pull.

Its piped up correctly and wired correctly to the best of my knowledege. I tried opening the box up and looked inside and checked the circuit that the EBC is wired to and thats fine too.

I may have missed something really obvious with the software but I dont think so.

Any suggestions other than burning the car would be most appreciated.

I appologise for another EBC question but I simply cant resolve this one from what I read.

what are the current boost control settings?

the PID must be tuned and the closed loop table setup.

Boost control On
Sol Freq 19.5hz
Control inerval 20ms
Boost control pin PT7
Output polarity Inverted
Closed Duty % 0
open Duty % 100
Algarithm Open Loop

Boost control duty table is set to 0 and all figures at 50% throttle and above are set to 40 as ive been playing around

Ive not touched any PID settings or closed loop tables. Im looking for them now but can only locate one called closed loop idle PID settings.

When EBC is disabled or at 0% DC, the boost control valve should be completely open and your boost is modulated by your normal signal pressure and wastegate actuator. You should NOT be hitting overboost.

The way EBC works is to use PWM to close off the the control valve so less of the signal pressure gets to your wastegate actuator. EBC can only increase boost, it cannot decrease boost.

It sounds like you've got your plumbing wrong. The EBC valve has a NC (Normally Closed), NO (Normally Open) and Common ports. You need to plumb your wastegate signal line to NO and Common. If you can't blow through it with the car shut off, it's wrong.

gotta turn closed loop on to activate that table. then the P I D values with open up to tune.

follow this methodoligy: http://msextra.com/doc/ms3/Boost_Con...00000000000000

Do you have the overboost protection enabled? Otherwise the EBC won't do anything.

Just followed the guide and left the table the same for now. Changed the proportional gain down from 180 to 100 as it says. Im going to leave it set on closed loop and do a run. If in the meantime I need to change back to open loop let me know. I will check when I get back from the run to see if there is a reply.
Overboost is enabled.

with P at 100, and I and D at 0, just keep lowering P until when you spool, you just start overshooting the target in your KPA table.

then once you get that P value, start increasing I. Do this until you can make a pull to redline and hold the boost target. At 0 it will spike and fall off.

When you add I youll have to add more P in to compensate.

finally, if you notice the target is oscillating, start adding in D. You'll probably have to adjust P again.

When all is said and done, you'll have spool that just spikes up over your target and holds flat to redline.

Just took it for a spin set for closed loop and it pulled like hell in 2nd gear went upto 20psi and then nearly threw me through the windscreen with the overboost protection. Should it still do that even with all the settings as they are?
I thought the idea was that with the settings set to what I had them it should be nice and tame and then I can start adjusting it higher. I still dont think the EBC is working.

One final thing. On the plug that the EBC is wired to which goes to the ECU. Im only using the 1 wire which was labelled for EBC and no other wires are connected to this connector. IS that ok?

the other wire goes to the blue connetor under the bonnet from the EBC.

this is correct, sounds like you need to increase P and lower your overboost! what's your closed loop table set to?

This is a screen shot of my open loop table, Closed loop and settings etc

Increased P to 120% and lowered overboost from 250kpa to 150kpi. Sound ok? I will go for another spin. Is there anything I need to take note of while im mout?

it's all a matter of tuning.

when you tune P you're just tuning the initial spoolup target, so multiple WOT hammers is nessecary.

This is where adding a "live" boost plot graph to your dashboard comes in handy.

once you are happy with P's targeting, you'll increase I to maintain the target to redline, so redline pulls will be next up.


Highways are great for this.

Ok P is set to 200. Going for a drive now. Ideally I would like around 18psi

Ok so this time when I lowered the Over boost it took my max boost down to around 8psi which was too low so I put it back to 250kpa which seems to be where I need the protection around 22psi. Took it for a spin and gave it WOT and hit OB straight away at around 22psi lots of Pinging (Note US use of the word lol) which wasnt fun.

Dropped the OB to 220kpi for added protection
Does output polirity need changing from inverted and algarithm from closed loop to open?

lowering the overboost should have no effect on your boost level other than preventing combustion beyond that level...

polarity ssould stay invereted, settings look good -- its just a matter of tuning.

By lowering the overboost I cant achieve the boost level I want though. So do I increase P again higher?
If I saw a change I would understand but at the moment there is no change when I change any settings other than when I alter the OB.
Is it worth me adopting bothe tables from the link you sent and change all my tables to the same as the link?

Would that make any difference?
Ok just learned that 200 is max

Man, you really need to take a step back and start with the basics.

Have you verified your plumbing and wiring yet? One side of your valve is tied to +12VDC (the "blue connector under the bonnet"). The other side of your valve is intermittently grounded by the ECU pin (the "single wire"). When the ECU pin is open (not grounded), you must be able to blow through your valve with your mouth. When the ECU pin is grounded, the valve should be closed.

Let's start there. When this is demonstrated to work, then make a run with EBC turned OFF so you can verify your base wastegate settings (remember that EBC can only increase boost above the wastegate setting, it cannot lower boost). After that, we can move on to some open-loop settings to verify that the basics in the MS are OK (frequency, polarity, etc.). Then . . . we can tune closed loop.

Off course, if you would rather skip all this and jump right into closed loop tuning when nothing appears to be working and blow up your engine, well, that's your business.

No your right. Im fed up now anyway. I tried changing P to 50 and that made no difference. Im sure when I check to see if its wired right it probably wont be as the valve doesnt appear to working at all.
Its 10 PM at night here now and its to dark to do anymore. I will check the valve as you said tomorrow after work and then post back and take it from there. Thanks for all the help guys I really appreciate your help and patience.

generalities:

the more you lower P, the higher your boost onset spike level.

the more you increase I, the better it holds boost in towards redline.

Ok so back to basics. Ive had a break from it and now I have come back witn a fresh head to put away once and foreall.
looking at the DIY Autotune EBC Valve one side has 1 hole and the other has 2.

I have 1 pipe going to the side with 1 hole obviously and I have the other part going to the lower hole or hole number 3. This is the hole furthest away from all the black plastic.

Now when I blow through the valve with the ignition turned off the air flows through the pipes which I have piped up. It doesnt matter which side I blow in as the air passes through the valve. At no point does any air come out of the spare hole which is not in use (Hole numbered number 2).

Then when I turn on the ignition an blow through the hole which has only 1 hole (Numberd on thye valve as 1) air comes out of the unused hole (Number 2) but not out of the piped up hole which the air was coming out of when the ignition was off. If I then try to blow through the piped up side where there are 2 holes (number 3). No air can be blown through.

I know this will not be easy to understand but is this the function of a correctly working EBC? I have checked all the diagrams and I believe its wired correctly. Maybe Im supposed to use hole number 2 or the hole which is closest to the black plastic on the side with 2 holes? as this does flow with the ignition on and not with it off?

OK, you're making progress. I can confirm that your plumbing is correct.

Now, go into your MS and check your EBC settings. Sitting static, you are operating at 100kPa, 0RPM and 0% TPS. If your EBC table calls for 100%DC at these conditions, then your setup is operating correctly. 100%DC on the EBC valve will close the signal to the wastegate. You can also adjust your table so that it produces 0%DC under static conditions. When you do that, the EBC valve should be open.

Confirm the above and let's work from there.

Im not sure I understand. I turned the ignition on the car then opened my boost control target table. At 0% throttle and middle of the 1000rpm box the figure reads 100. I assume this is what you are on about?

the valve is closed at this value with ignition on as I can only blow through one way and it comes out the hole which isnt in use.

If I change the value in the box to 0 it makes no difference. Same if I cahnge the figure to 200 in this box.

Am I looking in the correct table and box?

The EBC is warming up the longer I leave it on. Its not to warm just luke warm.

I changed back to open loop and then went into the boost duty cycle table and the figure at 100rpm and 0% throttle is 0 in the table but the valve is still closed. Changing the figure in this tabel to 100 also makes no difference and the valve remains closed.

Can someone tell me what settings to change so the valve opens then I may be able to work it out. I think this is the route of my problems as it always over boosts hence the valve is never opening and thats why I cant adjust the figures to make a difference.

Could the signal wire going to the ECU be incorrectly wired to the board or could the problem lie with that?
There are 4 wires on thsi block connector. If I only have the EBC wire connected and the other 3 where not connected is that ok as thats how mine is wired now?

I do think you've found your issue. The settings that you are adjusting should be opening and closing your valve.

Sounds like the "signal wire going to the ECU" is permanently grounded for some reason. Grab a multimeter and see if you can find the short. I would start by unplugging completely from the ECU. That will indicate whether the short to ground is internal or external to the ECU.

I will do that first thing tomorrow and report back. Thanks for the help.

Did you ever figure it out?
I'm having the exact same problem.

hornet: Do you mean disconnect the ground to the transistor to see if anything else is
grounding it?

Don't think we'd even gotten that far. I just suggested disconnecting the main ECU plug that contained the EBC control wire. Then, ohm the EBC control wire both on the harness side and the ECU side and see which side is shorted to ground. If the harness side, then there is a problem with the car wiring. If the ECU side, then there is a problem within the ECU. Never heard whether Ronnie got his issue solved or not. That means he probably got it fixed.

Sorry everyone I put my car off the road every winter and I have just got it back out again and resurrected this thread to again try and get the ebc working. I'm still where we left it Rick I need to check the signal wire and report back. I will do it tomorrow morning and post back as the car is back in use again.

Hi rick. I still don't have a clue. I haven't got a multimeter to be able to check as you said. If needs be I can go out tomorrow and buy one but you would have to say in the simplest of words how to do what you suggested I I never know what to set the multimeter to when I use it.

I tried a few things today. I checked the signal wire to th ecu and I couldn't see ny breaks in the wire. Is there a specific way round to wire the ebc up. I don't believe the wires have a specific way round.

I turned on the ignition and then tried blowing through and couldn't as the valve was closed. Turn the ignition off and blow through and you cn blow through as it's open. Again with ignition on if you unplug the wire which goes to the blue connector near the headlamp and you can here the valve cluck as it opens. Connect it up again and I clicks and you can't blow through.

The ecu end appears fine no bad solder. The ebc wire is soldered to the 3rd pin in from the right on the bottom row when looking at the plug at the end which plugs into the ecu with the least row of holes on the bottom.

Does the thickness of the wire used make any difference as I used quite thick wire instead f the thin stuff which s soldered to the plug?

Not sure yet about internals of the ecu but I do know from looking in the past that it would appear to be ok.


Software wise the over boost is turned on and set to 250kpa. I tuned. He boost table (in closed loop I believe) but still nothing. Not sure if there is any link but my wide band doesn't register on tuner studio either which would indicate a potential fault with the connector to ecu as the sensor and gauge work but I can't get a signal to the software.

With a multimeter, set it to measure ohms. Low ohms = continuity. High ohms = open. Usually, there is also a setting (diode test) that will beep when there is continuity. You are checking for continuity to chassis ground. This is basic electrical troubleshooting. If you don't know how to do this, you probably better get some local help. I don't think posting on a forum will get us there. Need to get that LC-1 reading in Tunerstudio also. I have no idea what the pinout on a DIYPNP should be.

I haven't had chance to check continuity yet but 1 question. Does the ebc have polarity?

I have 1 wire going to the blue connector near the headlamp and the other to the ebc signal on the db plug on the ecu for the signal. The only 2 other wires on the same db connector which could be used. Are a ground and 12v. I've just wired the ground from the db connector to the same ground on the engine which the main ecu earth goes to and the 12v is used for the lambda I think.

Ok so I removed the wire to the ECU and the valve remains open which would indicate that the fault is with the wire used on the connector or internal in the ecu.

Are we sure im using the correct wire on the connector on the ecu? I got a diagram from Braineack which showned the connector with the most pins on the top and reading left to right the 4 wires are:

12V then Ground then EBC then Wideband O2.

We can ingnore the WBO2 as that is working. The ground I have just wired to the engine block where the ecu ground goes and the 12V I think I have it plummed to my Innovate LC1. The EBC obviously goes to the ecu. Is the EBC wire im using the correct one on the DB...... connector?

Again does the EBC have any polarity or can it be wired any way round?

I tried going into the settings and changing lots of figures in the closed and open loop tabels just to try and get the valve to open and it wont. It just remains closed all the time ass if the ecu isnt getting a signal.

Likewise if I enable or disasble the valve in tunerstudio the valve remains closed.

The solenoid can be wired in either way.
Invert it in settings, so it doesn't get hot being closed all the time.

I gave up on it and run a mbc. :P

I'm sure I tried to invert it with no difference but I will have a go again to confirm.

considering why you think you need to invert the settings shows why you gave up...

Hi braineack have you any suggestions as I'm just trying anything at present as nothing is working. Is it possible that the ground on the connector is actually the ebc signal wire?

Can I confirm I don't need to use the 12v and ground wire from the db connector? I'm using the wbo2 wire which is now working and the only other I need is the ebc signal.

the solenoid needs constant switched 12v, then the ground is supplied by the MS at a very rapid varying rate to control the flows.

The switched live is supplied by the blue connector near the headlamp and the other wire is wired to the ebc wire on the db connector not the ground wire of the db connector. Is this the problem?

correct.

ebc wire, not ground wire. if it was attached to a constant ground, the solenoid would be always 100% open, and you'd only be at wastegate levels of boost. is that what you are seeing?

Other way around. A constant ground would cause the valve to be 100% closed (as soon as switched power is applied). This is what he's seeing. Diagnosed that some months ago. Needs to use a multimeter to find the short.

been a while, but yeah. whatever.

There is no short on the wire of the ebc. I have traced the full length of them. I was wondering if the wire on the db connector may have been mislabelled so the wire which it is currently connected to which is supposed to be ebc may actually be ground and vice versa. If that is the case then that's what the issue is.

I do have a multimeter but I have no idea what settings to set it and where to test.

I'm seeing over boost as the valve is locked shut and doesn't open

You can use either the ohms or diode continuity setting on your multimeter. I like diode continuity because it usually gives a beep. Put your black multimeter lead to chassis ground, and use the red lead to probe. If using ohms, a short will show a very low resistance, and open will show very high resistance. If using diode continuity, a short will beep, an open will not.

Pretty basic stuff. Surely, there's someone there that can give you an intro to your multimeter, or there's something you can find online (maybe youtube). It may seem like a lot at first, but once you see it in action, it will quickly make sense.

BTW, you can't say there's no short on the wire. Only the multimeter can tell you that. Your eyes can lie.

Ok so I went to a guy I know with a multimeter and we tested the wires to the ebc and there was definatley no short. This guy has experience with tuning ecu's so we had a play about but something strange has happened.

Previously the EBC would be closed as soon as the ignition was switched on and no matter what settings we adjusted the valve did not open. So this time we tried to connect the ebc to the earth of the DB connector which goes into the ecu just to check that the EBC signal wire had not been mislabelled as EBC. This never made a difference and the wires do appear to be as labelled. Hence the EBC wire is the signal wire for the EBC.

But than the valve opened and now wont close. We again checked the EBC with a multimeter and power is going through the EBC as if you connect the wire to earth which goes to the EBC wire of the ECU the valve closes. But reconnect the wire to the EBC signal wire of the ECU which it has always been connected and the valve is now not functioning as if the EBC signal wire is no longer signalling.

Im not sure what the fault is. The only thing I can now think is that the ECU its self is actually faulty and the EBC wire is not working properly and is or was possibly shorting.

Any suggestions as as much as I really want EBC im starting to get fed up and thinking of doing without it.

FINALLY!! Some progress.

I tuned the open loop table like the table in Braineacks link from page 1 of this thread and the vavle started to operate. at no throttle with the value set to 100 the valve is completly open.

If I change the value to 20 the valve closes. FINALLY.

This only works if I leave the settings set to open loop. As soon as I switch the boost settings to closed loop the valve just stays closed. So I take it I leave the settings as open loop.

Now whats next?

Does Closed loop still need the table changing? The table at present is set to 100 for 0 throttle, then 110 for 20% and then 156 for 40%, 170 for 60%, then 201 for all the other throttle positions.

Is it just the case now that I leave this table and start playing with the open loop table until I get the boost I need? Adjusting the figures up and down accordingly?

when you switch to closed loop, you have to then start tuning the PID settings to get the software to react (as well as setting up the closed loop table)

Ok,
So when everything is running should the boost settings be set to closed loop or open?

I used the table from your link should this now be left the same. Which table is the table that needs to be adjusted to get the required boost?

Or do you have to do both?

when going back to closed loop no matter what the value is (0, 100, 200, 400) the valve stays shut. Should the table be tuned and then do you need to change back to open loop for the valve to work?

the closed loop table should be the kPa values you want to hit. so say you're looking fro 15psi, you'd plug 205kPa in there.

then you have to tune the PID settings in order for the valve/software to react.

read through this: http://msextra.com/doc/ms3/Boost_Control.html

Ok,
I think I get it now. I need to set P then the other values etc now.

But do you set these values with the settings burned as Closed loop or open as in open loop it would appear to work but in closed loop it will most likely cause the valve to remain closed no matter what is done to the P values.

Eg assuming your cars are all correct and running on EBC if you look at your boost settings now does it say closed loop or open loop?

do you understand the difference between closed and open loop?


i use closed loop PID boost control...

To be honest no I don't really understand the difference. I have set both the tables closed and open to the same as the link you posted. When in open loop if I adjust the values in the table the valve opens and shuts but in closed loop changing the values has no effect on the valve in terms of been able to blow through it or not. The valve now functioning is a step forward as its just a case of setting the software. Trouble is the guides are not simplistic enough and they assume that you understand certain terminology which if you don't understand makes it difficult.

open loop just runs are whatever duty cycle you tell it to in your open loop table.

the numbers you are inputing are the duty cycles in which to drive the valve at a particular TPS position and RPM.

closed loop takes live readings (boost in the case) and maniplautes the solenoid's duty cycles in order to maintain the boost against the closed loop table.

the numbers you are inputting are the boost targets you want to hit at a particular TPS position and RPM.

it works like like your ARF targets and autotune and/or EGO.


the PID control is an algorithm that controls how the bost target is manitained, you have to go through all the trial and error in tuning the PID values in order to get your solenoid to react properly and maintain/reach the boost targets in your closed loop table. Once properly tuned, you can then pretty much change the closed loop table to whatever number you want, and the code will achieve those targets.

for instance, if your P value is too high, you'll never see any reaction in the solenoid.

if the P value is too low, you'll overshoot your boost target.

Ok that's a great explanation I get that. Are the 2 tables in the link a good reference table to then start setting p?

I know that the max value in the closed loop will limit the boost I achieve but other than that are they a good base?

Only other thing is I take it that to adjust p I need to have both the tables set which they now are and then burn it with it set to closed loop?

yeah looks like you're aiming for 15psi at WOT.

i'd move the freq of the valve to 34.5Hz, using the square solnoid from DIY?


start lowering P, you'll probably have to take it close to 30-20 or so before the boost starts going over wastegate. follow the directions in that link i posted, has a rudimentary how-to tune.

Thanks Scott I will go and play I've pestered enough :)

Yes it's the DIY valve I will change the value as suggested.

So it's one of those " it just started working" type of things?

No it's a combination of things. I think the problem is that everything needs to be correct or it simply won't work. I tried loads of different things but it wasn't correct. I believe it is correct now but won't know for sure until this weekend when I have a play with the values.

Don't mean to crowd this thread so let me know so I can start a new thread.

I checked resistance on my circuit and the 10k resister is grounding out the signal.
Is that normal? Don't see any other way it could not ground it. But everything is not shorting
to anything else. What else to check?

Out: to solenoid is connecting.
ground: to js11 is getting 10k because of the resister so everything is flowing good, no breaks.
The transistor isn't grounded out to anything either.
Nothing is touching anything else. Very frustrating.

I fallowed these directions.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1334690714

Js11 is for boost control in 3.2.1 and the diy kit didn't include the diode that goes between solenoid.
that's it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...s/dc18fec6.jpg

Just to help future searchers all that was needed was to START THE CAR. :)
EBC works now. Sorry again to crowd your thread but we kinda had the same prob.