Frank's Sucksess!
06-22-2009, 05:08 PM
#1
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Frank's Sucksess!
Starting a thread to brain storm why his project car won't run. He can give you more details, as I understand it:
'99 motor in a lowcost (westfield)
MS-II
Turbo on the way...
The conversation so far:
Make sure the spark output is the right polarity, then check the inputs (do you see RPM on the MS when cranking?), check the outputs (do the injectors click? Fuel pump turn on? Spark Plugs fires? Is the timing way off?
Between those and the scope, you could get an idea for what's going on pretty quick. It sucks to have to wait for it (which is why I built it into my little board albiet in simplified form), but Jean's (JBPerf) breakout board is a great thing when you're lost.
Also, I run low ohm injectors, so if you have high ohm, it'll fall on it's face once you hit more than a millisecond or two of fuel though it'll run great in the garage. :-) Make sure the water and air temps read sensibly, that will tweak the mixture.
Does it cough? Does it try at all? Do you get a starting indiction on the MS? Record a log of trying to start.
-Abe.
'99 motor in a lowcost (westfield)
MS-II
Turbo on the way...
The conversation so far:
On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 1:23 PM, Frank Devocht <frank_devocht@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi Abe,
If you could send me a .msq that I can use as a guideline, that would be awesome. I built your input circuits and Joe's output circuits. I'm running 2.0.1, but no problem if you're using a different version.
It's probably (hopefully) just a minor issue, but rather frustrating Knipogende emoticon Emoticon.
grtz,
Frank
Hi Abe,
If you could send me a .msq that I can use as a guideline, that would be awesome. I built your input circuits and Joe's output circuits. I'm running 2.0.1, but no problem if you're using a different version.
It's probably (hopefully) just a minor issue, but rather frustrating Knipogende emoticon Emoticon.
grtz,
Frank
Make sure the spark output is the right polarity, then check the inputs (do you see RPM on the MS when cranking?), check the outputs (do the injectors click? Fuel pump turn on? Spark Plugs fires? Is the timing way off?
Between those and the scope, you could get an idea for what's going on pretty quick. It sucks to have to wait for it (which is why I built it into my little board albiet in simplified form), but Jean's (JBPerf) breakout board is a great thing when you're lost.
Also, I run low ohm injectors, so if you have high ohm, it'll fall on it's face once you hit more than a millisecond or two of fuel though it'll run great in the garage. :-) Make sure the water and air temps read sensibly, that will tweak the mixture.
Does it cough? Does it try at all? Do you get a starting indiction on the MS? Record a log of trying to start.
-Abe.
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06-23-2009, 02:09 AM
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I think we can wipe the "timing completly wrong" off the list.
As I noted after my engine rebuild - (I used the wrong of the two timing marks of the 99+ the first time) -the trigger angle will be something like 4° as in your MSQ.
As the CKP and CMP are fixed at the 99+ engine - the timing should be the same for everyone (at least for everyone with your circuit).
Could someone please confirm this? (As this is at the moment based on my experience)
Greets
Sven
As I noted after my engine rebuild - (I used the wrong of the two timing marks of the 99+ the first time) -the trigger angle will be something like 4° as in your MSQ.
As the CKP and CMP are fixed at the 99+ engine - the timing should be the same for everyone (at least for everyone with your circuit).
Could someone please confirm this? (As this is at the moment based on my experience)
Greets
Sven
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06-23-2009, 05:06 PM
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My firend's motor ran pretty poorly because he had the timing wheel on backwards. You wouldn't think you could, but you can. It gets you a 20* error or something.
It just never hurts to check your assumptions. Afterall, your first assumption is that it should run. :-)
If you have compression, spark, fuel, and timing, it'll run. One of those is missing. Just be methodical.
Something like that. If you have the right outputs at the right time, and it doesn't run, it's something mechanical. Of course, I mean, check the output chain all the way back. First see if the injectors click, if yes, look for fuel. If no, look for a signal. On and on.
My guess is you'll find it's an issue with the inputs. You built that circuit of "mine"? The jimstim can have pullups (with jumpers), that might be the cause of it working on the stim but not on the car. If you're seeing RPM on the MS screen, odds are it's the outputs that are messed up, or just WAY wrong start up settings (don't overlook this). Coil durration too short or something.
It just never hurts to check your assumptions. Afterall, your first assumption is that it should run. :-)
If you have compression, spark, fuel, and timing, it'll run. One of those is missing. Just be methodical.
Code:
Check for outputs
if they are not there, check for inputs.
If they are there
check the timing,
If it's right: something's wrong in the MS
If it's wrong, fix the timing
If they are not there, fix that
If they are there, check the timing
If timing is right, get back on here, it's something weird
If the timing is wrong, got through the above to figure out if it's inputs or software
My guess is you'll find it's an issue with the inputs. You built that circuit of "mine"? The jimstim can have pullups (with jumpers), that might be the cause of it working on the stim but not on the car. If you're seeing RPM on the MS screen, odds are it's the outputs that are messed up, or just WAY wrong start up settings (don't overlook this). Coil durration too short or something.
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06-24-2009, 05:30 PM
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Ah, no problem. Let's see, I know the settings, but I'm not sure where. Let me dig out the laptop
ok, under 'basic setup'->'injector characteristics' you'll want to set open time to whatever it is for your injectors (you can see this with a scope if you have a current sense resistor, or ask online, I'd guess 1-2ms. You can check this answer (once it runs well) by doubling the number of "squirts" per cycle and seeing if you get richer or leaner (you should stay the same).
The low-ohm part is this:
PWM current is 100%
Technically you shouldn't need to do anything else, but everyone (to be safe) sets the time to max (26ms?) and the period doesn't matter).
Turn bank 2 settings off if they aren't already.
Another word of warning. Go into tools -> calibrate thermister tables
Set the bottom right number from 99 to 82. It will get the meter reading close near 180F (nominal opperating temp). If this is way off, the engine will run poorly and the fans won't come on at the right temp. Oh yeah, with my MSQ, change where the fan comes on, I have it at 180F, you'll want it higher or they will be running even when the thermostat is closed.
Lastly, don't forget to calibrate the TPS. If this is way off, it won't start. Same menu (tools), and it's obvious from there what to do, but do it on the car.
-Abe.
ok, under 'basic setup'->'injector characteristics' you'll want to set open time to whatever it is for your injectors (you can see this with a scope if you have a current sense resistor, or ask online, I'd guess 1-2ms. You can check this answer (once it runs well) by doubling the number of "squirts" per cycle and seeing if you get richer or leaner (you should stay the same).
The low-ohm part is this:
PWM current is 100%
Technically you shouldn't need to do anything else, but everyone (to be safe) sets the time to max (26ms?) and the period doesn't matter).
Turn bank 2 settings off if they aren't already.
Another word of warning. Go into tools -> calibrate thermister tables
Set the bottom right number from 99 to 82. It will get the meter reading close near 180F (nominal opperating temp). If this is way off, the engine will run poorly and the fans won't come on at the right temp. Oh yeah, with my MSQ, change where the fan comes on, I have it at 180F, you'll want it higher or they will be running even when the thermostat is closed.
Lastly, don't forget to calibrate the TPS. If this is way off, it won't start. Same menu (tools), and it's obvious from there what to do, but do it on the car.
-Abe.
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07-18-2009, 09:04 AM
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I got the car back yesterday so I could do some more testing.
The first problem was that my fuel pump wouldn't turn on. It turns out that on a european NB, the fuel pump is not LG on 3N but R/W on 3P. Mind you, the LG wire is there on the euro cars, but it terminates in a big blue connector and goes nowhere after that.
So, now that the fuel pump is running, I got the car running, albeit very difficult.
At first it didn't want to start at all and sounded like it was firing on the wrong stroke. I then swapped the connectors on the coils and it fired. It will run, but only when I hold the throttle open. It then just barely idles (I have FIDLE from the MS not hooked up yet as I don't quite figured out yet how to do it. I figure this is not a problem right now?).
No matter what I do with the throttle, it doesn't react to it. TPS is working fine in the MS window (0 to 100%). I calibrated it as well.
I don't have a timing light yet, so I can't check the timing right now. I'll get one asap.
Oh, and I get a lot of popping through the (open) airfilter.
All circuits I built in the proto area seem to be working (at least the ones I could test thus far):
- Abe's input circuits
- Joe's output circuits.
- tacho
- Jason's alternator circuit
Here's a log I made.
Here's my msq
The first problem was that my fuel pump wouldn't turn on. It turns out that on a european NB, the fuel pump is not LG on 3N but R/W on 3P. Mind you, the LG wire is there on the euro cars, but it terminates in a big blue connector and goes nowhere after that.
So, now that the fuel pump is running, I got the car running, albeit very difficult.
At first it didn't want to start at all and sounded like it was firing on the wrong stroke. I then swapped the connectors on the coils and it fired. It will run, but only when I hold the throttle open. It then just barely idles (I have FIDLE from the MS not hooked up yet as I don't quite figured out yet how to do it. I figure this is not a problem right now?).
No matter what I do with the throttle, it doesn't react to it. TPS is working fine in the MS window (0 to 100%). I calibrated it as well.
I don't have a timing light yet, so I can't check the timing right now. I'll get one asap.
Oh, and I get a lot of popping through the (open) airfilter.
All circuits I built in the proto area seem to be working (at least the ones I could test thus far):
- Abe's input circuits
- Joe's output circuits.
- tacho
- Jason's alternator circuit
Here's a log I made.
Here's my msq
Last edited by WestfieldMX5; 07-18-2009 at 10:16 AM.
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07-18-2009, 06:03 PM
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You know, it sounds like when I had my spark output inverted when it shouldn't be. Perhaps I'm off here. Put your hand on the coils and make sure they aren't hot.
If you're using the stock sensors, I think you want to crank trigger offset to be 4 degrees (not sure the sign).
Also, do you have any idea how rich you are? If you're using a map from someone like me, who expects 550 cc injectors, the pulsewidths on start up will be like 1 ms. Plus, since I have low-ohm injectors, my open time is super short, meaning you're likely getting 500 us of fuel when you require 3000.
Just a thought, but I would still check the timing.
-Abe.
P.S. You cna try to IM me if you catch me online.
If you're using the stock sensors, I think you want to crank trigger offset to be 4 degrees (not sure the sign).
Also, do you have any idea how rich you are? If you're using a map from someone like me, who expects 550 cc injectors, the pulsewidths on start up will be like 1 ms. Plus, since I have low-ohm injectors, my open time is super short, meaning you're likely getting 500 us of fuel when you require 3000.
Just a thought, but I would still check the timing.
-Abe.
P.S. You cna try to IM me if you catch me online.
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07-19-2009, 01:59 AM
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Hi Frank
I just opened your MSQ and write comments as I find things to comment:
1. Is your Req fuel about right? What injectors are you running. (I got 460cc and have a req fuel of 5.9 at my 1,6l engine)
2. Your Injector open time is set to 1.5ms which seems quitelong to me (it is 1.0 standard)
3.What about you injectors - are they high or low impedance?
Your PWM time threshold is 32.7 and PWM current limit is 100%
From the MS-II Extra manual:
"If you are running high-impedance injectors (greater than 10 Ohms), then set the:
PWM Time Threshold to 25.4 mSec, and the
PWM Current Limit (%) to 100%.
If you have low impedance injectors (less than 4 Ohms), set the:
PWM Time Threshold to 1.0 mSec, and
PWM Current Limit to 75% (30% if you have installed the 'Flyback Board' daughter card).
You will tune these after getting the engine running. See “Setting the PWM Criteria” in the tuning section of this manual. Failure to perform the tuning steps can result in damage to your injectors. If you have high-impedance injectors, set these values to 25.4 ms and 100%, and you do not need to tune them further."
4. Shut off the barometric correction (at least for now) it is known not to be working as intended.
5. General settings: It is set there to Dual table use - but you have table switching disabled in EXTENDED Table switching control.
6. EGO: Are you using a wideband or just the narrowband O2 sensor? If you use wideband set it correctly.
7. Shut overrun fuel cut of (at least for testing now) enable and tune later.
8. I am not sure about your output port settings - are they enabled/disabled correctly?
Maybe someone else can chime in and have a look, but I think there are at least some points you should change and they may get you running.
Greets
Sven
I just opened your MSQ and write comments as I find things to comment:
1. Is your Req fuel about right? What injectors are you running. (I got 460cc and have a req fuel of 5.9 at my 1,6l engine)
2. Your Injector open time is set to 1.5ms which seems quitelong to me (it is 1.0 standard)
3.What about you injectors - are they high or low impedance?
Your PWM time threshold is 32.7 and PWM current limit is 100%
From the MS-II Extra manual:
"If you are running high-impedance injectors (greater than 10 Ohms), then set the:
PWM Time Threshold to 25.4 mSec, and the
PWM Current Limit (%) to 100%.
If you have low impedance injectors (less than 4 Ohms), set the:
PWM Time Threshold to 1.0 mSec, and
PWM Current Limit to 75% (30% if you have installed the 'Flyback Board' daughter card).
You will tune these after getting the engine running. See “Setting the PWM Criteria” in the tuning section of this manual. Failure to perform the tuning steps can result in damage to your injectors. If you have high-impedance injectors, set these values to 25.4 ms and 100%, and you do not need to tune them further."
4. Shut off the barometric correction (at least for now) it is known not to be working as intended.
5. General settings: It is set there to Dual table use - but you have table switching disabled in EXTENDED Table switching control.
6. EGO: Are you using a wideband or just the narrowband O2 sensor? If you use wideband set it correctly.
7. Shut overrun fuel cut of (at least for testing now) enable and tune later.
8. I am not sure about your output port settings - are they enabled/disabled correctly?
Maybe someone else can chime in and have a look, but I think there are at least some points you should change and they may get you running.
Greets
Sven
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07-22-2009, 07:21 AM
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Frank's near succes
thx for the help so far guys.
The car runs, so I have some succes at last.
calc required fuel is 12.8 using 1834cc, 238cc, 14.7 (I'm assuming 14.7 as the manual speaks of stoichiometric combustion)
with these settings I can rev the engine acceptably for now but I have no idle at all.
When I enter req fuel 6.0, it idles rather good but when I apply throttle, if falls dead on it's face (peg lean I assume).
So how exactly do I set the idle fuel?
Do I use 2 injections in the engine constants window?
- PWM time threshold is 25.4
- PWM current limit is 100%
- tps is calibrated (99 - 748)
- trigger angle offset set to 5.5° with timing light (was at 4°)
- constant barometric set to initial reading.
- 2nd map sensor disabled (single table)
- stock narrowband sensor for now. (have a techedge on the way but wanted to get it just driveable for now)
- overrun fuel cut off is off
- in calibrate thermister tables, I entered 82 instead of 99, but each time I go back, it resets to 99 ??
One last (probably stupid) question, how do I open an msq without having to load it into my MS?
The car runs, so I have some succes at last.
calc required fuel is 12.8 using 1834cc, 238cc, 14.7 (I'm assuming 14.7 as the manual speaks of stoichiometric combustion)
with these settings I can rev the engine acceptably for now but I have no idle at all.
When I enter req fuel 6.0, it idles rather good but when I apply throttle, if falls dead on it's face (peg lean I assume).
So how exactly do I set the idle fuel?
Do I use 2 injections in the engine constants window?
- PWM time threshold is 25.4
- PWM current limit is 100%
- tps is calibrated (99 - 748)
- trigger angle offset set to 5.5° with timing light (was at 4°)
- constant barometric set to initial reading.
- 2nd map sensor disabled (single table)
- stock narrowband sensor for now. (have a techedge on the way but wanted to get it just driveable for now)
- overrun fuel cut off is off
- in calibrate thermister tables, I entered 82 instead of 99, but each time I go back, it resets to 99 ??
One last (probably stupid) question, how do I open an msq without having to load it into my MS?
Last edited by WestfieldMX5; 07-22-2009 at 10:23 AM.
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07-22-2009, 10:22 AM
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Hi Frank,
nice to see, that your car is running at last.
AFAIk I have 5.5 degrees trigger angle too.
I think Abe may be helpful when it comes to idle settings. At the moment I still run parallel (come on Abe hurry up...
).
Leave your Req fuel where you calculated it to be. All the other things you have to do at the VE table. Have a look at the MS2Extra manual at MSextra.com (it's down at the moment... so I can't give you a link).
Greets
nice to see, that your car is running at last.
AFAIk I have 5.5 degrees trigger angle too.
I think Abe may be helpful when it comes to idle settings. At the moment I still run parallel (come on Abe hurry up...
).Leave your Req fuel where you calculated it to be. All the other things you have to do at the VE table. Have a look at the MS2Extra manual at MSextra.com (it's down at the moment... so I can't give you a link).
Greets
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07-22-2009, 02:58 PM
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thx for the help so far guys.
The car runs, so I have some succes at last.
calc required fuel is 12.8 using 1834cc, 238cc, 14.7 (I'm assuming 14.7 as the manual speaks of stoichiometric combustion)
with these settings I can rev the engine acceptably for now but I have no idle at all.
When I enter req fuel 6.0, it idles rather good but when I apply throttle, if falls dead on it's face (peg lean I assume).
So how exactly do I set the idle fuel?
Do I use 2 injections in the engine constants window?
- PWM time threshold is 25.4
- PWM current limit is 100%
- tps is calibrated (99 - 748)
- trigger angle offset set to 5.5° with timing light (was at 4°)
- constant barometric set to initial reading.
- 2nd map sensor disabled (single table)
- stock narrowband sensor for now. (have a techedge on the way but wanted to get it just driveable for now)
- overrun fuel cut off is off
- in calibrate thermister tables, I entered 82 instead of 99, but each time I go back, it resets to 99 ??
One last (probably stupid) question, how do I open an msq without having to load it into my MS?
The car runs, so I have some succes at last.
calc required fuel is 12.8 using 1834cc, 238cc, 14.7 (I'm assuming 14.7 as the manual speaks of stoichiometric combustion)
with these settings I can rev the engine acceptably for now but I have no idle at all.
When I enter req fuel 6.0, it idles rather good but when I apply throttle, if falls dead on it's face (peg lean I assume).
So how exactly do I set the idle fuel?
Do I use 2 injections in the engine constants window?
- PWM time threshold is 25.4
- PWM current limit is 100%
- tps is calibrated (99 - 748)
- trigger angle offset set to 5.5° with timing light (was at 4°)
- constant barometric set to initial reading.
- 2nd map sensor disabled (single table)
- stock narrowband sensor for now. (have a techedge on the way but wanted to get it just driveable for now)
- overrun fuel cut off is off
- in calibrate thermister tables, I entered 82 instead of 99, but each time I go back, it resets to 99 ??
One last (probably stupid) question, how do I open an msq without having to load it into my MS?
A couple comments:
- tps is calibrated (99 - 748)
Interesting. It's funny how tight the tolerances are in modern assemblies, that's exactly what mine comes up as.
- trigger angle offset set to 5.5° with timing light (was at 4°)
Did you rev the motor somewhat? If you rev TOO much, there's a small delay in the inputs which you'll want to account for (you can tell if this is right by drift in the timing with RPM's) - in ignition settings somewhere is this hardware delay in milli (or micro) seconds. At idle things bounce around so much you can't get it right.
Then again, perhaps the European cars have more/less timing than the US models, though I doubt they would do it with the mechanical bits. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it might be worth rechecking, maybe at ~2000 rpm, and then rev it to 6 or so and see if it moves. Make sure this is will all advances turned off.
- in calibrate thermister tables, I entered 82 instead of 99, but each time I go back, it resets to 99 ??
Yeah, that's not reading what's there. It's only a program wedged into megatune which overwrites what's there. Don't worry, it's right. Easiest way to tell - let the car warm up, see what temp is displayed. If it's about 180f, it's about right. :-) If you're using my MSQ, you'll want to move the switch point up, I have the fans turn on at 180 to compliment my 160 degree thermo. (Sorry for the lack of metric, at work, no time to convert)
The idle issue:
It's very likely injector settings.
Let's say you turn on the injector at time 0. It doesnt' start to move for 300 us, and doesn't spray significant fuel until 1200 us. I'm picking numbers out of a hat to illustrate.
If you have open time set to 1500 us (1.5ms) then at idle when it tries to give you 500 us of fuel, it actually opens the valve for 500 + 1500 = 2000 us. The computer thinks you got 500 us, but really the valve opened in 1200, so you got the balance in fuel, or 800 us.
This is all great, and it'll idle and you'll never know it's wrong. Then you ask for 5% more fuel (slight throttle). The car goes "Great. 500 * 1.05 = 525 us. Open time of 1500 us, and that's 2025 us."
But what really happened? Before you were getting 700 us of fuel, now you're getting 2025-1200 = 825. Your "5%" increase was really only 3%.
Up top, with 9 ms of open time, you don't care about 200 us, you just tune it out. But right off idle it's very important to understand the opening time.
The fix: In the first settings window, there's a squirts-per-cycle, and I think your choices are 2 or 4. Since the open time is constant, switching from 2 squirts to 4 will double the error in opening time. So if you're idling at 14.6:1, and you go to 4 squirts and you richen up to 14.0:1, then you're opening time is too long. The math:
2000 ms (1500 + 500) becomes 2x (1500 + 250), so the difference between 1500 and 1200 shows up. Basically, go back and forth from 2 to 4 squirts and tweak opening times until there's no change, then go retune your low end.
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07-28-2009, 06:28 PM
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Well, it's about time to change the title of this topic to Frank's succes.
The MS is finally running. I couldn't have done it without your help guys, so a big thank you. As some of you know, I had given up completely on MS, but decided to give it one last attempt because ... uhm ... I can't even recall why. Anyway, the car is running on MS! Still need to finetune VE table and idle (no idle when cold, perfect idle when hot, albeit a bit high at 1100-1200rpm).
Installed a TechEdge WB this evening, will try to do some tuning in the next couple of days.
The MS is finally running. I couldn't have done it without your help guys, so a big thank you. As some of you know, I had given up completely on MS, but decided to give it one last attempt because ... uhm ... I can't even recall why. Anyway, the car is running on MS! Still need to finetune VE table and idle (no idle when cold, perfect idle when hot, albeit a bit high at 1100-1200rpm).
Installed a TechEdge WB this evening, will try to do some tuning in the next couple of days.
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07-29-2009, 02:01 AM
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Nice to see you running. Is this with your adapterboard attached?
Greets
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07-29-2009, 10:00 AM
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Haha, you're probably right Sven. Yes, this is with all my circuits. I have them in the proto area, so no extra adapterboard. Everything is working perfect, also alternator control and tacho.
I'll post more info later this evening on what was wrong with my setup. All wiring and software problems, just like I thought from the beginning.
I'll post more info later this evening on what was wrong with my setup. All wiring and software problems, just like I thought from the beginning.
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