Help me work out this MS-II please
 

Ok guys, I am trying to figure out this Mega Squirt 2 ECU for my 2000 miata. This engine is currently completely stock and has AC. I do plan to turbo it soon but want to figure out the EMS first to simplify things later.

I have read and tried my hardest to understand all of the stickys. I have also tried to search out information that i couldn't figure out for my self. Unfortunately i still have a few questions.

First off, this is the list of components that i have come up with that i think i will be needing. Is there anything that i am missing?

-MS-II Engine Management System w/PCB3 - UnAssembled Kit $247.00
-Jumper 10-Pack $7.00
-JimStim v1.4 MegaSquirt Stimulator w/ Wheel Simulator Unassembled $59.00
-MegaSquirt Tuning Cable (DB9 Straight Thru) $5.50
-Innovate Standalone Gauge Kit w\ LC-1 & G3 Analog Gauge $289.00
-MegaSquirt Stimulator Power Supply $7.50
-Lead Bending Tool $5.50
-PCBv3 and v2.2 -- Relay Control 'ModKit' $5.00
-PCBv3 and v2.2 -- Boost Control Mod-Kit $7.00
-PCBv3 and v2.2 -- Pullup Resistors 'ModKit' $1.60x2
-250 pc Cable Tie Assortment $5.50
-MegaSquirt Wiring Bundle - 23" Long $12.00
-GM Open Element IAT Sensor with Pigtail $22.25
-PCBv3 -- PWM IAC Valve Control (TIP120) 'Mod-Kit' $7.00
Sub-Total: $682.45

Second, i would like to leave the stock wiring and ecu as unmolested as possible. I would like to run the MS as a standalone, but would also like to be able to switch back to the stock ecu if i need to.

Third, i am not sure what is needed to maintain control of the stock alternator, AC, and VICS. I don't really understand the stickys that address these issues. Perhaps i should just build the MS first and worry about these issues when i get to them.

Thanks for your patience,
-Jared-

Can't say much now due to time constraints, but I'll help you more later tonight. I suggest building a standalone setup myself. Simpler and better IMO. AbeFM has done a MS2 standalone and so have I. Research his name here too and you'll find some various info you might be looking for.

Also, once you put bigger injectors the stock ECU will no longer run the car. I built a parellel setup and now I'm standalone. Most start out parallel cause it's fail safe, but then realize it's not needed and they go standalone. Or just do parallel to let the stock ECU do idle, alternator, etc, but it will still not run the car on its own without swapping back to stock injectors.

I really don't want to run a parallel install, i just want the ability to switch back to the stock ecu while the engine is stock. Since this is my only mode of transport, I think this would really help me while I am still figuring things out.

For VICS, you will need one additional Relay modkit, and a 12v SPST automotive relay. This will be configured to operate within a certain range of RPM (I can't remember it off the top of my head- it's in a post somewhere) to open and close the VICS solenoid when appropriate. It's pretty simple.

For alternator control, you need the Mopar part that Abe refers to here: https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t21621/ Alternator control does not interface to the MS at all, it's completely standalone.

For A/C, you'll just need a diode and some jumper wires. Again, this is independent of the MS. Ideally, you'll also modify your stock purge valve to open when the A/C is on, to compensate for idle droop and prevent stalls. I wrote up the NA version of this in my AC FAQ, I probably need to do an NB-specific chapter for that as well.

One alternative would be to do what's commonly referred to as a "Boomslang" install, after the company by the same name that builds wiring harnesses. Basically, you need to obtain a stock ECU connector, and use it to build an adapter harness. One end plugs into your factory wiring, the other into the MS. So to remove the MS and install the stock ECU, you just unplug the boomslang from the factory harness and plug the stock ECU in. Here's a picture of one that I build for an NA. The wires that are coiled up go to non-factory functions (EBC, WBO2, GM IAT, etc.) The yellow connector on the right was obtained by cutting the stock connector off of a dead ECU, though you can also buy these from some online vendor that's referenced in Brainey's big FAQ:

http://img37.picoodle.com/img/img37/...sm_43b8c51.jpg

Im running MS-II v 3.0 EDIS with relay board and fuse block on my 90 1.6 with ITB's and is a complete parallel install. It controls spark and fuel only. It has its own independent set of sensors (MAP, IAT, TPS, CLT) and is not tapped into any of the cars factory wiring. The factory ecu controls the IAC valve and I enjoy completely stock idle from warmup, idle up when a/c switch is pressed to moving the steering wheel left to right. I modified another injector wiring harness to work with MS and kept the original one in case I decide to go back to stock. Havent had a problem in the 1 1/2 yrs that Ive had it.
There is an advantage to letting the factory ECU do what it does best and let MS control spark and fuel.

And admitedly, I'll be doing someting similar soon. I removed the stock coolant sensor and now I have no guage... And had other problems as well like fans running all the time. So finally I plugged the sensor into the electrical connector, but I still don't get a reading on the gauge since it's not installed into the cooling system anymore. Gonna add it when I do a reroute and basically do what you're doing. Let the stock ECU do idle and run my coolant gauge, tach, etc, and let MS run spark and fuel, and for the same reasons as you mention. Separate systems 100%.

I'm running parallel and while it works pretty well, I'm going to redo my wiring this weekend. I'll still be parallel but I'm going to use Jason's Schmitt trigger input circuits w/o pullups instead of the current transistor circuits.

If I didn't live in California I'd go standalone.

RDSnake, how do you control idle w/ a stock ECU and ITBs?

ecu is still connected to IAC valve -->IAC valve is bolted to an IAC Block (Fujiracing part)-->Connected to vacuum log-->Individual Runners.

Thanks for your help guys.:)
I just made my order today.
I will try to keep a light update as things progress.

-Jared-

Any thoughts yet on what your going to do for crank and cam signals? There is Abe's reverse engineering of the stock ECU, Jason's Schmitt trigger alternative of Abe's circuit, 97 or before cam sensor, or a toothed wheel like RdSnake and Pat. I don't know of anyone that has had luck with the circuit on the MS2Extra page but it's an alternative, too. I tried the VR circuit about a year ago for the crank signal and never got anywhere. I got the car running once with it but the signal looked like crap on a scope and the car would barely idle.

MS2-Extra Miata Manual

i am looking at buying the components for the "boomslang" style harness. However all of the distributors have a minimum order of $35. So from the looks of it i can get the parts for one NB harnesses for about $16.32 + shipping.

To prevent money from being wasted, does any one want to go in on an order with me for boomslang parts?
64 Pin Male connector (174518-7)------$5.66 ea
26 Pin Female connector (174516-6)----$1.13 ea
22 Pin Female connector (174515-6)----$1.08 ea
16 Pin Female connector (174514-6)--- $0.80 ea
.040" Contacts (175061-1)-------------$0.125 ea
.070" Contacts (173716-1)-------------$0.045ea

-Jared-

Good question Arga,
I was under the impression that the MS2 was able to be programed with the NB CAS.
How do you have yours set up arga? :edited: duh parallel with stock ecu:noob:

Since i have no answer to this, perhaps someone else could shed a little light on this situation.

The MS2E software can handle the 99+ crank and cam signals. Getting a clean signal to the software seems to be the challenge.

I'm currently using secret option 'D', a simple transistor isolation circuit. I'm running in parallel so the ECU handles the 5v pull up. It's worked well for me but a few other people have tried it and all of them have had trouble with dropped pulses. I'm currently redoing my wiring and I think I may try Jason's circuit instead. I can always go back if it doesn't work for me. NPN switching transistors are $2 for a box of 15.

A crank trigger wheel has an advantage of expandability. The future of megasquirt will bring us sequential injection, individual spark, etc. My prediction is the combination of crank trigger wheel (crank input) and 1.6l CAS (Cam input) would be the setup for the future for us.

Well that was fun! Jim stim finished, now it is time for the MS2

Ok, so i have a few questions.
1. do the jumper settings for tach and ignition mentioned in brainy's sticky work for a 2000 miata and a MS2?
2. Does the Q7 to Q4 swap and mod listed in the same post work successfully for fan control in my application?

i am sure i will have more questions soon as i am knee deep in this thing.

Thanks,
-Jared-

ok, screw those questions. Since a picture is worth a thousand words... this is what i have so far.
-along with the jumpers from Brainy's build instructions i have one relay hooked up for the fans
-how do i hook up the relay for the VICS
-there is no rpm value reported in megatune
-I cannot get my o2 to work in megatune
-I was only able to get MS2-extra 1.0.2 to flash to the ecu and run in megatune

ok switched the TSEL to OPTOUT and now i get a rpm reading (needs tuned badly)and a o2 reading.
-What firmware do you guys recommend i flash to the ecu/ can you post it's location?
-i am having a hard time setting up the tach/ignition settings in megatune, got any recommendations?
Thanks
-Jared-

You'll definitely need to install MS2/Extra 2.0.1 to get this working. The 1.0.2 release does not support the NB ignition settings, while it's built into 2.0.1.

i am having a hard time getting MS2_EXTRA 2.0.1 firmware to flash to the ecu. I get an error code at 40%
ERROR: Timed out reading response, 0xE0
Elapsed time: 7.58 seconds
ERROR: Timed out reading response, 0xE0
Elapsed time: 13.88 seconds

Any ideas?
cheers,
-Jared-

any ideas?

i have tried the MS Download 2.00 and the download-MS2-firmware.bat

Are you using "download-MS2-firmware.bat" to flash firmware? I suggest clicking that link Matt posted and reading through it. Make sure you are doing everything in the order they tell you. You likely skipped a step somewhere.

Also... Best kept secret is the MS forums. msefi.com. Go there, and then find the MS2 section. Then there's a MS2E section. Look around there and you'll find lots of troubleshotting and info specific to MS2E.

thanks Patsmx5, ya i did everything in that link that you sent to me. however, no luck.
i guess it is time to strike up a thread on msefi.

Cheers
-Jared-

While I don't know what the cause of your problem is, I can tell you it's a "common" mistake. IE-I've read a few threads over at MSEFI where people had the "stops at 39 or 40%". So try searching 39 and 40% maybe, or just read around and see what you find. The info is there anyway.

ok, i think that i am starting to get some of this MS2E software worked out.
now for something more miata specific.

What path have you guys used to incorporate a relay control mod kit for controlling the VICS system?

Thanks
-Jared-

Well, I'm letting the stock ECU run the vics right now. You have a few options.

buy a window switch to control them.
let MS control the VICS at the expense of loosing an output.

MS can do it. But you'll "loose" an output. IE-you can only let MS2E run so many extra things. Fuel pump, fast idle valve, shift light, window switch, fan control, etc. Odds are you still have a few spare outputs.

Go into megatune and at the top click "extended" then "output Port settings". A window will open that says "generic port settings". You'll see a drop down box that list all the different outputs. Pic one you aren't using. For example you could use "FIdle" if you don't have a fast idle valve that your plainning on using. I forget which pin of the DB37 that FIdle comes out of. Maybe 36, but Google it to be sure.

Anyways, once you pick an output you enter all the specs to make it come on when you want. Say variable=RPM. Select something like this

RPM > 5200 Hysterisis 10
No second condition
Power on value 0
Triggered value 1

This will make the output you select short to ground whenever RPM is greater than 5200. So now, you hook that output to one side of the coil on a relay, and hook the other side to +12V switched fused power that's hot when the key is in the "on" position. Now you got a relay that goes on and off. Ground one side of the VICS solenoid. wire up the relay so that when it's energized by MS2, that the relay shoots +12V to the other side of the VICS solenoid.

That sounds complicated but really it's not. I'll note that you could use other outputs instead of FIdle, depending on what you have free. FWIW, I used the FIdle output to control a relay for my fans. So in mine, when I click FIdle it shows

Coolant temp > 180*F Hysteresis 5
Second condition- RPM > 300
Power on value 0
Trigger value 1

So this means whenever the coolant temp is greater than 180*F AND the engine RPM is greater than 300 RPM, it will spit out a ground on that output. I have a relay wired up as I described above, but instead of the relay energizing a VICS solenoid, it powers the cooling fans. They come on at 180*F and go off at 175*F (that's the 5*F hysteresis).

wow, that's pretty cool. Too bad that nobody teaches a class for ms2 101, this little gizmo can do a shit load of cool stuff.

i believe that i will only be doing 4 specific mods to this ecu
1. Relay control mod for fans (already installed to JS0 and IAC2B) still not configured in megatune
2. Relay control mod for vics Not installed or configured yet
3. EBC modkit (will probably use JS2 and IAC1B) will not use till about feb. or march.
4. Table switching control via toggle switch.
I also would like to play around with launch control, and knock sense. but i don't see those as being necessary.

Thanks again Pat! Just like the Megasquirt you are full of all sorts of awesomeness!

Cheers
-Jared-

Why do table switching? What table will you be switching? Unless it's table switching for when water injection triggers, I doubt you need it. Yeah, MS2E does a LOT. Send me your email and I'll try to email you my MSQ. You'll have to change a few things of course, but it will be a good start. If anything you can copy my timing table and VE table and use them. (they're pretty damn good for my engine, but mine isn't stock...)

i wanted the table switching so that i can switch between a high boost and a low boost map. Is there a better way to do this?
As for the email, just add @yahoo.com to the sn.
Thanks a million!
-Jared-

Yes there are several "better" ways. For one, MS2E has open loop AND closed loop boost control. The "map" you refer to is for open loop. That's where MS looks at a 8x8 map of boost and RPM to control the boost solenoid. This map is not switchable. What you can do is hook it up so that the power feeding the solenoid is switchable, which allows you to run wastegate pressure or whatever you have set in the duty cycle table.

Also, MS2E does boost by TPS, though I'm not familiar with it. This would be awesome.

Also, MS2E does "closed loop" boost control. This is where rather than look at a table to determine boost, it looks at boost, RPM, and load. This is what all the MS1 guys cry about not having. MS2E has it though. :):):):):)But, you have to set up the P, I, and D in PID for it to work. I won't pretend like I know how to do this. This info can be found on the MSEFI forum though. People complain that the PID stuff is hard to set up, but once it's setup it works great. So IMO, it's the only way to go for EBC.

Anyways, I'll email you my MSQ in a sec. Note that I'm running standalone w/ a 36-1 trigger wheel and EDIS ignition. So this won't even run your car. You would have to change all the input settings. This is just for you to browse through and look at how mine's setup.

ooh, well that does change a few things. screw that multiple map idea.

Thanks for the MSQ i will definately read through it. Now i need to figure out my own ignition and tach settings... fun fun.

-Jared-

I sent you another msq from Arga on this forum. Should get you running.

hey thanks, haven't gotten anything yet but maybe the super duper interweb is just being pokey. yahoo's server has been slow for me before.

Haha, I sent it to myself. Whoops. Check now.

hmm, no dice
swimming108@yahoo.com
sorry that i am being such a hemorrhoid
(newbrrhoid might be more appropriate)

It sent the second time. Give it a few minutes. Yahoo is slow as hell sometimes. If mt.net sends me an email I get in "instantly", but if a friend emails me it takes a couple hours to show up. Really weird.

Could you mail them to me too please?
I'm setting up a MS2 for an '95, but I think that most of the settings sould be similar, and it'd be nice to have something to refer to :)

Cheers
Matt

ya, i think the yahoo server is having problems or something. i still haven't gotten them

i will gladly forward them to you too giryan.

Cheers,
-Jared-

Great, thanks

swimming108, I sent it again. giryan, I sent you both as well.

thanks, patsmx5 you really are going out of your way for us on this one! I still have not gotten it so i am just going to completely blame yahoo on this one, it has done this to me before when i have emailed stuff to myself from my school account. it usually shows up a few days later. Completely random misfortune, but bull shit none the less.

i am sorry to ask this of you but could you try my student email since yahoo is being dumb? jrgoldbach@credit.hagerstowncc.edu
thank you so much for all the help you have given me thus far!
cheers
-Jared-

received, many thanks.
I'll forward to Jared, sent.

ok, there is a definate problem on my end. i just don't understand why my email is not working. so i opened a new one... jrgoldbach@gmail.com

I hope you guys can forgive me for the inconvenience and please forward me a msq file or two.

Thanks
-Jared-

I wouldn't mind receiving that .msq either :noob:

Swimming108, it's hard to see in the pic you posted, but did you do the CMP/CKP mods to JS8? (or to JS10?)
If I'm starting to understand this thing, than to me it looks that the CMP/CKP mods are not necessary at all as they are for a 90-97 CAS.

Also, Abe's circuits replace the entire opto circuit and going by your pic, you built all circuits (even VR?)

f_devocht i have them on the js8 i believe (not sure, will check when i get home from school), and you are probably right about that being nessicary only for the 90-97. when i built it i did it according to brainy's big diy post. and i couldn't find anything specificaly stating what is appropriate for 99-00, so i just did this as a starting point untill i can figure out what is best.

Yes i did build the VR circuit but i used jumpers so that i am not using it. i know that it is completely useless to me at the moment, but i did it anyway for fun

here they are

wow, thank you so much. i am sorry that this was so much of a hassle for you patsmx5. i will now resign to my bat-cave to study these files.

yes f_devocht i do have the IAC1A line connected to the JS8 pin (The pin itself).
This is what my board looks like now with 2 relay control mod kits (Fans and VICS) and a EBC mod kit.
cheers,
-Jared-

has anyone had success with the stock cam and crank signals from the 99-00? if so how do you have your ignition wired into your board, and what do your tach and ignition settings in MS look like?

I have been looking at using the circuit proposed by drytoast in https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t25789/#post305857, but i am honestly having a hard time understanding it completely.
ooh well, i think i will try it and see what happens.
Thanks,
-Jared-

Thx for the msq, Pat.

Jared, they definitely need to go to JS10 instead of going to JS8. I made the same mistake. However, I'm pretty sure they are not needed with the 'new' input circuits (be it Abe's, Jason's or drytoast's).
I completely removed the 1K and 470R resistors and capacitor to JS8/JS10.
Instead I built Abe's circuit on the VR area of the board (see my reply in Abe's 40% thread, here's the circuit). It's ABe's circuit, but I reordered the components so they fit in the VR area. .

I did do the ignition output mods of course (the 2 x 330R to IGN and IAC2B)

http://westfieldmx5.devocht.com/star...otos/front.JPG

http://westfieldmx5.devocht.com/star...fotos/back.JPG

Since my failure of getting RPM readings in step 55 of the build, I haven't done further testing with the megasquirt. I'll try again when the MS is completely finished. Waiting on a couple of NPO capacitors for the input circuits :(.

I left out R37 and R38 because I broke one of the pins while bending it. Might try to install them again if the area is not being taken up by other mods. No longer have the double sided tape though. Don't know if it's ok to install them without contacting the heatsink.

Don't forget to put a dab of silicone on the crystal.
Did you install the flyback diode for the TIP120? I don't see it in your pic.

Want to do constant VICS, fans, barometric correctoin, launch control, waterinjection and knock detection. Haven't checked yet if there's enough outputs even to do all this. First 3 are necessary, the other ones would be nice to have.
I haven't decided on boost control. Probably never going to use it, unless it helps spoolup maybe.

Haven't looked into software settings at all. First want to get a grasp on the hardware, software comes later :)