Idle Control Talk (From VE Live Thread)
01-20-2010, 04:19 PM
#1
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Idle Control Talk (From VE Live Thread)
With closed loop PID idle, everything is really ok except for two or three things:
1) The algorithm can't catch the A/C when you are idling. Too much load, too sudden. The idle will drop by 200-300rpm before the valve opens some more, it will then overshoot by 150rpm and then rest to the final target RPM. Btw my target idle once warmed up is 1000rpm, not 800rpm. I'm going to add an idle-up air valve to remedy this.
2) When you coast down, the algorithm will try to settle somewhat higher than your target RPM (ie with 1000rpm target, that's about 1400rpm) for a couple of seconds then slowly drop down to your target RPM. Annoying, but the car never stalls that way.
3) When you first start the car, it will first idle at 2-2.5K rpm for a couple of seconds and then drop to 1400rpm (my target when CLT ~= 5C). Probably due to 2).
Jim
1) The algorithm can't catch the A/C when you are idling. Too much load, too sudden. The idle will drop by 200-300rpm before the valve opens some more, it will then overshoot by 150rpm and then rest to the final target RPM. Btw my target idle once warmed up is 1000rpm, not 800rpm. I'm going to add an idle-up air valve to remedy this.
2) When you coast down, the algorithm will try to settle somewhat higher than your target RPM (ie with 1000rpm target, that's about 1400rpm) for a couple of seconds then slowly drop down to your target RPM. Annoying, but the car never stalls that way.
3) When you first start the car, it will first idle at 2-2.5K rpm for a couple of seconds and then drop to 1400rpm (my target when CLT ~= 5C). Probably due to 2).
Jim
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01-20-2010, 04:26 PM
#2
With closed loop PID idle, everything is really ok except for two or three things:
1) The algorithm can't catch the A/C when you are idling. Too much load, too sudden. The idle will drop by 200-300rpm before the valve opens some more, it will then overshoot by 150rpm and then rest to the final target RPM. Btw my target idle once warmed up is 1000rpm, not 800rpm. I'm going to add an idle-up air valve to remedy this.
2) When you coast down, the algorithm will try to settle somewhat higher than your target RPM (ie with 1000rpm target, that's about 1400rpm) for a couple of seconds then slowly drop down to your target RPM. Annoying, but the car never stalls that way.
3) When you first start the car, it will first idle at 2-2.5K rpm for a couple of seconds and then drop to 1400rpm (my target when CLT ~= 5C). Probably due to 2).
Jim
1) The algorithm can't catch the A/C when you are idling. Too much load, too sudden. The idle will drop by 200-300rpm before the valve opens some more, it will then overshoot by 150rpm and then rest to the final target RPM. Btw my target idle once warmed up is 1000rpm, not 800rpm. I'm going to add an idle-up air valve to remedy this.
2) When you coast down, the algorithm will try to settle somewhat higher than your target RPM (ie with 1000rpm target, that's about 1400rpm) for a couple of seconds then slowly drop down to your target RPM. Annoying, but the car never stalls that way.
3) When you first start the car, it will first idle at 2-2.5K rpm for a couple of seconds and then drop to 1400rpm (my target when CLT ~= 5C). Probably due to 2).
Jim
I've screwed with everything that I can screw with and driven DIY people nuts. Even installed a VTPS.
I don't mind the idle moving around, having the motor idle fast etc but the idle drooping between shifts drives me nuts cause the car seems to jerk when you let out the gas between shifts.
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01-20-2010, 04:31 PM
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With closed loop PID idle, everything is really ok except for two or three things:
1) The algorithm can't catch the A/C when you are idling. Too much load, too sudden. The idle will drop by 200-300rpm before the valve opens some more, it will then overshoot by 150rpm and then rest to the final target RPM. Btw my target idle once warmed up is 1000rpm, not 800rpm. I'm going to add an idle-up air valve to remedy this.
2) When you coast down, the algorithm will try to settle somewhat higher than your target RPM (ie with 1000rpm target, that's about 1400rpm) for a couple of seconds then slowly drop down to your target RPM. Annoying, but the car never stalls that way.
3) When you first start the car, it will first idle at 2-2.5K rpm for a couple of seconds and then drop to 1400rpm (my target when CLT ~= 5C). Probably due to 2).
Jim
1) The algorithm can't catch the A/C when you are idling. Too much load, too sudden. The idle will drop by 200-300rpm before the valve opens some more, it will then overshoot by 150rpm and then rest to the final target RPM. Btw my target idle once warmed up is 1000rpm, not 800rpm. I'm going to add an idle-up air valve to remedy this.
2) When you coast down, the algorithm will try to settle somewhat higher than your target RPM (ie with 1000rpm target, that's about 1400rpm) for a couple of seconds then slowly drop down to your target RPM. Annoying, but the car never stalls that way.
3) When you first start the car, it will first idle at 2-2.5K rpm for a couple of seconds and then drop to 1400rpm (my target when CLT ~= 5C). Probably due to 2).
Jim
Thought about opening the purge solenoid when you trigger a/c? This should make a small vacuum leak when it's on, so it might be a big droop.
Heck, my stock does that.
Lame.
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01-20-2010, 04:51 PM
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With closed loop PID idle, everything is really ok except for two or three things:
1) The algorithm can't catch the A/C when you are idling. Too much load, too sudden. The idle will drop by 200-300rpm before the valve opens some more, it will then overshoot by 150rpm and then rest to the final target RPM. Btw my target idle once warmed up is 1000rpm, not 800rpm. I'm going to add an idle-up air valve to remedy this.
2) When you coast down, the algorithm will try to settle somewhat higher than your target RPM (ie with 1000rpm target, that's about 1400rpm) for a couple of seconds then slowly drop down to your target RPM. Annoying, but the car never stalls that way.
3) When you first start the car, it will first idle at 2-2.5K rpm for a couple of seconds and then drop to 1400rpm (my target when CLT ~= 5C). Probably due to 2).
Jim
1) The algorithm can't catch the A/C when you are idling. Too much load, too sudden. The idle will drop by 200-300rpm before the valve opens some more, it will then overshoot by 150rpm and then rest to the final target RPM. Btw my target idle once warmed up is 1000rpm, not 800rpm. I'm going to add an idle-up air valve to remedy this.
2) When you coast down, the algorithm will try to settle somewhat higher than your target RPM (ie with 1000rpm target, that's about 1400rpm) for a couple of seconds then slowly drop down to your target RPM. Annoying, but the car never stalls that way.
3) When you first start the car, it will first idle at 2-2.5K rpm for a couple of seconds and then drop to 1400rpm (my target when CLT ~= 5C). Probably due to 2).
Jim
Megasquirt MSEXTRA and MS3EFI • View topic - Advice on tuning Close loop idle
RE: point 3, that's easily fixed, alter the PWM Cranking Duty table a bit, and then reduce the crank taper to PID setting lower, Mine cranks and catches to around 1500rpm then drops to 1300rpm.
I'll try a higer target, but I'd really like an 850rpm idle like stock
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01-20-2010, 04:54 PM
#7
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Idle has been my pet peeve with MS
I've screwed with everything that I can screw with and driven DIY people nuts. Even installed a VTPS.
I don't mind the idle moving around, having the motor idle fast etc but the idle drooping between shifts drives me nuts cause the car seems to jerk when you let out the gas between shifts.
I've screwed with everything that I can screw with and driven DIY people nuts. Even installed a VTPS.
I don't mind the idle moving around, having the motor idle fast etc but the idle drooping between shifts drives me nuts cause the car seems to jerk when you let out the gas between shifts.
How can idle be dropping inbetween changing gear, the two things are not related.
If you don't like the revs dropping when you depress the clutch fit a heavier flywheel.
Jerking when letting off the accelerator is deceleration enrichment, look it up in the MM
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01-20-2010, 05:03 PM
#9
So just hooked up the boost controller. Its a lot more fun at 12psi again but I think I need to get a different spring in the MBC, I think its too stiff.
Also my upper Vband is leaking again on my downpipe :(:(:( I think i'm going to end up removing it completely. It must just be warped beyond repair at this point. Oh well.
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01-20-2010, 05:06 PM
#10
14-15* at idle. No ac/ps. Idles right at 800-900 rpm lights on or off, and is pretty temperature indifferent. I haven't touched my idle screw at all since before winter started. My idle AFR is right around 13.8-14.2. Now if I back it down to 14.7 like I have it right now for emissions, it gets a little choppier, but it doesn't even come close to stalling (which I think is in part due to my use of DSM 450cc injectors, which are slow as hell).
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01-21-2010, 01:12 AM
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01-21-2010, 06:27 AM
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Many thanks Jim, that helps a lot. I've not yet worked out my rpm with valve open and closed and the corresponding DC% numbers I think that's why I'm struggling, plus the bleed valve in the TB is fully shut.
I am at a P value of 200 yet stiil no oscillation. I think once the above are nailled tuning the PID loop will be more successful.
I am at a P value of 200 yet stiil no oscillation. I think once the above are nailled tuning the PID loop will be more successful.
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01-21-2010, 08:54 AM
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I fitted the 96 TB and Idle valve to my 2001 motor, mainly because it was getting late on Sunday and I was running out of time, but also because I didn't want to cut the harness up, the 2001 TPS is a 3 pin affair and doesn't fit my 4pin plug (obviously), and the IAC valve is still a 2 pin but a different shame (damn you Mazda!)
I realise your setting likely won't be the same in a lot of areas, but it's helped a lot just knowing that a 'P' term of 200 isn't right and a much lowewr term can be used - abeit with a different valve.
I realise your setting likely won't be the same in a lot of areas, but it's helped a lot just knowing that a 'P' term of 200 isn't right and a much lowewr term can be used - abeit with a different valve.
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01-21-2010, 10:24 AM
#17
Someone try these settings.
These are common settings from msextra. Weather is poor here today otherwise I would try. I'm pimping the toyota echo today.
2 Idle Control
These are common settings from msextra. Weather is poor here today otherwise I would try. I'm pimping the toyota echo today.
2 Idle Control
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01-21-2010, 01:23 PM
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A word to the warning: I'm using Jean's PWM multiplier board to get to ~500Hz (488Hz) without losing any precision. That also means that my signal is inverted (0%=on, 100%=off). So take these settings with a grain of salt.
Jim
Jim
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01-21-2010, 06:46 PM
#19
I'm still trying to smooth out my idle before I go on to use the new sliced bread version of TS 
I am trying to address idle fluctuations, idle sag between shifts.
I changed the following as per reccomendations from DIY via email.
Min dc from 21 to 22 ( to help with idle droop )
Fast idle "lower" 130 to 120
Slow idle ( upper) 169 changed to 140 RPM
Slow (warm) idle raised to 1000
VTPS theshold ADC from 150 to 10
Idle Activation 500 changed to 250
Dashpot settle time from 47 to 80
Dead band range 130 changed to 50
Fast recovery RPM 15 changed to 5
Slow recovery RPM 100 changed to 75
I would like to know if any of yous fudged around with the above issues and settings and what yous did.
Not really sure what most of these do or if I am moving them in the right direction
Thanks
I am trying to address idle fluctuations, idle sag between shifts.
I changed the following as per reccomendations from DIY via email.
Min dc from 21 to 22 ( to help with idle droop )
Fast idle "lower" 130 to 120
Slow idle ( upper) 169 changed to 140 RPM
Slow (warm) idle raised to 1000
VTPS theshold ADC from 150 to 10
Idle Activation 500 changed to 250
Dashpot settle time from 47 to 80
Dead band range 130 changed to 50
Fast recovery RPM 15 changed to 5
Slow recovery RPM 100 changed to 75
I would like to know if any of yous fudged around with the above issues and settings and what yous did.
Not really sure what most of these do or if I am moving them in the right direction
Thanks
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01-21-2010, 09:38 PM
#20
Can some of you who don't have or have fixed the idle issues comment on my settings ?
I would like to fix my droopy idle issue and idle droop between shifts before I start playing with the new TS
I changed the following as per reccomendations from DIY via email.
Min dc from 21 to 22 ( to help with idle droop )
Fast idle "lower" 130 to 120
Slow idle ( upper) 169 changed to 140 RPM
Slow (warm) idle raised to 1000
VTPS theshold ADC from 150 to 10
Idle Activation 500 changed to 250
Dashpot settle time from 47 to 80
Dead band range 130 changed to 50
Fast recovery RPM 15 changed to 5
Slow recovery RPM 100 changed to 75
Thanks
I would like to fix my droopy idle issue and idle droop between shifts before I start playing with the new TS
I changed the following as per reccomendations from DIY via email.
Min dc from 21 to 22 ( to help with idle droop )
Fast idle "lower" 130 to 120
Slow idle ( upper) 169 changed to 140 RPM
Slow (warm) idle raised to 1000
VTPS theshold ADC from 150 to 10
Idle Activation 500 changed to 250
Dashpot settle time from 47 to 80
Dead band range 130 changed to 50
Fast recovery RPM 15 changed to 5
Slow recovery RPM 100 changed to 75
Thanks
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