I'm squirting
05-18-2007, 09:55 AM
#82
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I don't have any of the MLV files. They're on Jerry's laptop. So you're relying on my memory 
Rob, yes I now know what's up with the greddy overshoot. I'm told that it's the position of the nipple for boost source on the turbo. It's in a low boost area of the turbo. It is supposed to be at the compressor outlet. If you look at the subie turbo it's compressor outlet extends about 3/4" further out to make room for a nipple. The tuning expert Scott told me putting a nipple in the charge pipe as near to the compressor outlet as possible will significantly decrease the spike if not eliminate it.
Yes, changes were made in the timing map. It was very interesting to watch. Jerry would make small adjustments between runs. We never got into a detonation problem, but there were several places where decreasing advance made equal power. Interesting stuff. Advance was added in the higher rpm/MAP ranges too. That's probably why HP continues to climb all the way to redline so hard. Overall it looks like the map runs a lot of advance. I used cheap Quick Trip 93. Scott told me on his car he has to loose 4 deg of advance to run QT vs Shell. Again we never got into det problems, even with my stock heat range plugs and discount gas. We did have a spark blow out one time.
Watching them tune fuel was interesting too. I went in wanting a flat 12.5:1-12.0:1 curve. The MS certainly would have been capable of accomondating. But they showed me that there was more power available by running richer in certain spots without any timing adjustment. My car seemed very happy at 12.5 increasing to high 11s, then mid 11s at the very end for safety. We had both my LC1 WB and a MoTec WB to tune by. I was impressed at how they agreed with each other to .1 AFR!! I just did a free air cal on my WB on Wednesday.
I still will run on a dynojet for fun to see big HP numbers. But for tuning, the load dyno, while expensive, is amazing. A lot of the street tuning I would have done instead turns out would have been plain wrong. IE going for 12.5 afr and pushing timing until knock then backing down slightly.
It was a PITA to get the car on the dyno. The dyno pods had been disassembled by some jackhole so we had find all the hoses and make the connections. Then we had to get the back wheels off. For some reason, my car has one (1) splined lugnut. I'd never noticed it. Of course it was on a back wheel. So we got one of the subie techs to weld a nut to the lugnut. I think that was Jerry's idea. It was a good damn idea. Once the wheels are off, you still have to bolt up hub adaptors then raise/lower the car so you can shove the dyno pods into the hubs. So it took a long time to do. Cool things about it is the loading is friggin awesome and there is no big, dangerous rotating drum. No fear of kicking up rocks either.
If they got some more cooling going on (another fan or two and/or a mister) I may have put up some better peak numbers. Though what we did was more like real world: hot motor, hot intercooler, sucking down 90 deg ambient air. One medium sized fan was blowing into the intercooler side of the radiator. The fan didn't even take up the whole mouth. :gay:
Maybe I'll run it at BPM's dynojet in their sub 60 deg dyno room with 9 high volume fans. What do you think, 265-270 ??
Rob, yes I now know what's up with the greddy overshoot. I'm told that it's the position of the nipple for boost source on the turbo. It's in a low boost area of the turbo. It is supposed to be at the compressor outlet. If you look at the subie turbo it's compressor outlet extends about 3/4" further out to make room for a nipple. The tuning expert Scott told me putting a nipple in the charge pipe as near to the compressor outlet as possible will significantly decrease the spike if not eliminate it.
Yes, changes were made in the timing map. It was very interesting to watch. Jerry would make small adjustments between runs. We never got into a detonation problem, but there were several places where decreasing advance made equal power. Interesting stuff. Advance was added in the higher rpm/MAP ranges too. That's probably why HP continues to climb all the way to redline so hard. Overall it looks like the map runs a lot of advance. I used cheap Quick Trip 93. Scott told me on his car he has to loose 4 deg of advance to run QT vs Shell. Again we never got into det problems, even with my stock heat range plugs and discount gas. We did have a spark blow out one time.
Watching them tune fuel was interesting too. I went in wanting a flat 12.5:1-12.0:1 curve. The MS certainly would have been capable of accomondating. But they showed me that there was more power available by running richer in certain spots without any timing adjustment. My car seemed very happy at 12.5 increasing to high 11s, then mid 11s at the very end for safety. We had both my LC1 WB and a MoTec WB to tune by. I was impressed at how they agreed with each other to .1 AFR!! I just did a free air cal on my WB on Wednesday.
I still will run on a dynojet for fun to see big HP numbers. But for tuning, the load dyno, while expensive, is amazing. A lot of the street tuning I would have done instead turns out would have been plain wrong. IE going for 12.5 afr and pushing timing until knock then backing down slightly.
It was a PITA to get the car on the dyno. The dyno pods had been disassembled by some jackhole so we had find all the hoses and make the connections. Then we had to get the back wheels off. For some reason, my car has one (1) splined lugnut. I'd never noticed it. Of course it was on a back wheel. So we got one of the subie techs to weld a nut to the lugnut. I think that was Jerry's idea. It was a good damn idea. Once the wheels are off, you still have to bolt up hub adaptors then raise/lower the car so you can shove the dyno pods into the hubs. So it took a long time to do. Cool things about it is the loading is friggin awesome and there is no big, dangerous rotating drum. No fear of kicking up rocks either.
If they got some more cooling going on (another fan or two and/or a mister) I may have put up some better peak numbers. Though what we did was more like real world: hot motor, hot intercooler, sucking down 90 deg ambient air. One medium sized fan was blowing into the intercooler side of the radiator. The fan didn't even take up the whole mouth. :gay:
Maybe I'll run it at BPM's dynojet in their sub 60 deg dyno room with 9 high volume fans. What do you think, 265-270 ??
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Last edited by Ben; 05-18-2007 at 10:25 AM.
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05-18-2007, 10:23 AM
#83
Ben - now that Ben's car is "complete" he'll be able to focus on yours! 
This has me seriously considering writing a check to have somebody tune my car. At the rate I'm going it is going to take forever making street runs. Though interesting and educational (perhaps risky?), I can see frustration in my future by not making the power I should because I'm not the "expert".
Curious to what this cost you - pm me if it's confidential.
This has me seriously considering writing a check to have somebody tune my car. At the rate I'm going it is going to take forever making street runs. Though interesting and educational (perhaps risky?), I can see frustration in my future by not making the power I should because I'm not the "expert".
Curious to what this cost you - pm me if it's confidential.
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05-18-2007, 10:38 AM
#86
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Good news! I stand corrected on the Injector DC... it is NOT dependent on REQ_FUEL. Matt (here at DIY) just suggested that, and I called Ken Culver (Muythaibxr, one of the coders) to confirm and sure enough that calculation is independent of REQ_FUEL...
So I checked the final datalog again and confirmed Max DC is 74.3%. Not bad at all.
Here's a screenshot--
And here's the whole datalog if you'd like to load it into MegaLogViewer
So I checked the final datalog again and confirmed Max DC is 74.3%. Not bad at all.
Here's a screenshot--
And here's the whole datalog if you'd like to load it into MegaLogViewer
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'91 Miata BEGi S3 GT2560 w/ MSPNP - 14.1psi - 253whp, 232wtq
'95 Miata n/a
A few other cars....
Jerry a.k.a. 'FoundSoul'
DIYAutoTune.com
'91 Miata BEGi S3 GT2560 w/ MSPNP - 14.1psi - 253whp, 232wtq
'95 Miata n/a
A few other cars....
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05-18-2007, 10:50 AM
#87
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Ben - now that Ben's car is "complete" he'll be able to focus on yours!
This has me seriously considering writing a check to have somebody tune my car. At the rate I'm going it is going to take forever making street runs. Though interesting and educational (perhaps risky?), I can see frustration in my future by not making the power I should because I'm not the "expert".
Curious to what this cost you - pm me if it's confidential.
This has me seriously considering writing a check to have somebody tune my car. At the rate I'm going it is going to take forever making street runs. Though interesting and educational (perhaps risky?), I can see frustration in my future by not making the power I should because I'm not the "expert".
Curious to what this cost you - pm me if it's confidential.
I don't normally tune cars for $$, and Ben didn't pay me a dime for what I did yesterday, he just paid for the dyno time and the operators time. So hopefully what I say here has some credibility.
It is SO WORTH IT to have your car properly tuned in on a load based dyno-- I simply can't say it enough. Yes it costs money... it's not cheap. Minimum $350 for a full steady state tune followed by ramp run tuning and it goes up depending on the dyno/tuner and how long it takes them (familiarity with MS will be a part of that). I've know a tuner that uses a Dyno Dynamics dyno that costs $150/hr to rent and the tuner charges $100/hr on top of that-- but he's one of the best and people keep him busy. The knowledge to do this right isn't extremely common, and it costs money to get it done right...
BUT-- before you balk at that.... your car will never run better than after it is properly tuned like this. We're not just talking about WOT runs which everyone is interested in... but drivability will be amazing. Pretty much all that's left after a full tune like this is your cold start, afterstart enrichments, and accel enrichments. That takes a bit of tinkering. AE can be done on the street pretty easily. Cold Start and AfterStart take a few cold starts to get just right-- obviously that can't be done on the dyno because cold start means dead cold, like after sitting for several hours.
Do this and your car has never run better. It costs money, but it is money well spent.
__________________
Jerry a.k.a. 'FoundSoul'
DIYAutoTune.com
'91 Miata BEGi S3 GT2560 w/ MSPNP - 14.1psi - 253whp, 232wtq
'95 Miata n/a
A few other cars....
Jerry a.k.a. 'FoundSoul'
DIYAutoTune.com
'91 Miata BEGi S3 GT2560 w/ MSPNP - 14.1psi - 253whp, 232wtq
'95 Miata n/a
A few other cars....
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05-18-2007, 10:52 AM
#89
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god I wish the hydra datalogged everything. I'd like to know my blood pressure while doing a 3rd gear 50-70 roll on pass. you know?
Jerry: 2001 miata. VVT. You know you want to.
Jerry: 2001 miata. VVT. You know you want to.
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05-18-2007, 10:55 AM
#91
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I don't normally tune cars for $$, and Ben didn't pay me a dime for what I did yesterday, he just paid for the dyno time and the operators time. So hopefully what I say here has some credibility.
It is SO WORTH IT to have your car properly tuned in on a load based dyno-- I simply can't say it enough. Yes it costs money... it's not cheap. Minimum $350 for a full steady state tune followed by ramp run tuning and it goes up depending on the dyno/tuner and how long it takes them (familiarity with MS will be a part of that). I've know a tuner that uses a Dyno Dynamics dyno that costs $150/hr to rent and the tuner charges $100/hr on top of that-- but he's one of the best and people keep him busy. The knowledge to do this right isn't extremely common, and it costs money to get it done right...
BUT-- before you balk at that.... your car will never run better than after it is properly tuned like this. We're not just talking about WOT runs which everyone is interested in... but drivability will be amazing. Pretty much all that's left after a full tune like this is your cold start, afterstart enrichments, and accel enrichments. That takes a bit of tinkering. AE can be done on the street pretty easily. Cold Start and AfterStart take a few cold starts to get just right-- obviously that can't be done on the dyno because cold start means dead cold, like after sitting for several hours.
Do this and your car has never run better. It costs money, but it is money well spent.
It is SO WORTH IT to have your car properly tuned in on a load based dyno-- I simply can't say it enough. Yes it costs money... it's not cheap. Minimum $350 for a full steady state tune followed by ramp run tuning and it goes up depending on the dyno/tuner and how long it takes them (familiarity with MS will be a part of that). I've know a tuner that uses a Dyno Dynamics dyno that costs $150/hr to rent and the tuner charges $100/hr on top of that-- but he's one of the best and people keep him busy. The knowledge to do this right isn't extremely common, and it costs money to get it done right...
BUT-- before you balk at that.... your car will never run better than after it is properly tuned like this. We're not just talking about WOT runs which everyone is interested in... but drivability will be amazing. Pretty much all that's left after a full tune like this is your cold start, afterstart enrichments, and accel enrichments. That takes a bit of tinkering. AE can be done on the street pretty easily. Cold Start and AfterStart take a few cold starts to get just right-- obviously that can't be done on the dyno because cold start means dead cold, like after sitting for several hours.
Do this and your car has never run better. It costs money, but it is money well spent.
Because how do you know what your AFR really is at idle if you have all these enrichments set wrong and the fuel map is wrong too?
Matt
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05-18-2007, 11:28 AM
#95
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you need to spell it out for me...and this could be cause my wb sensor died, but i was seeing the same pw on the same injectors, with more fuel in the fuel cells at idle and seeing 14.7-15.2:1 idle....you have less fuel, and the same pulse width with 4° more timing and seeing 12.5-12.8:1 idle...
=
me
=
me
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05-18-2007, 11:30 AM
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maybe you have a vac leak :gay: How does your idle feel? When I idle around 14.7 the car starts to miss a little. 13.0 it's smooth as glass. I have confidence in the numbers given by my LC1 because they jived exactly with the dyno's MoTec. Surprised the hell outta me, actually.
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05-18-2007, 11:33 AM
#97
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maybe you have a vac leak :gay: How does your idle feel? When I idle around 14.7 the car starts to miss a little. 13.0 it's smooth as glass. I have confidence in the numbers given by my LC1 because they jived exactly with the dyno's MoTec. Surprised the hell outta me, actually.
I guess ill attribute that to a bad wbo2 sensor....since I thought I was at 12.5:1 in boost and it was at least 10:1, the dynos WB didnt read that rich...
oh btw, happen to have your EBC duty cycle tables/targets...I just got my MOSFET to build the EBC mod and wanna see what your non-tps tables look like.....thanks homey....btw, your FMU is going back into the mail today....I have it here.
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05-18-2007, 11:37 AM
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I wonder if your LC didn't calibrate itself while in your exhaust? That would cause it to ignore some fuel in the stream and read less than actual.
I don't think my solenoid duty cycles will work for you. But if you want them, I'll grab them. Be very careful, my car drops boost with rpm and the table is populated to counter act that. Start low and work it up slowly. Oh, and I didn't question him, but the tuner told me that it's best for the motor to build up to a peak boost then slowly drop it towards redline. You can look at my MAP on the log to see what I mean.
Thanks for sending the FMU. I told Corky to send it to me. oh well. you want me to cover shipping?
I don't think my solenoid duty cycles will work for you. But if you want them, I'll grab them. Be very careful, my car drops boost with rpm and the table is populated to counter act that. Start low and work it up slowly. Oh, and I didn't question him, but the tuner told me that it's best for the motor to build up to a peak boost then slowly drop it towards redline. You can look at my MAP on the log to see what I mean.
Thanks for sending the FMU. I told Corky to send it to me. oh well. you want me to cover shipping?
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05-18-2007, 11:42 AM
#99
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Eh, my lc-1 doesnt work at all. I picked up a sensor from y8s and tried it, and nothing....I acutally ripped it out and I'm sending it back to innovative...
I was on the phone with them yesterday, hooked it up to my battery and laptop for a bench test, with two sensors available, I would get the heater calibration to start, then i was getting "open circuit" error from both of them, which in their eyes means a failed sensor....but I trust at least Matt's is good, so I doubt the abilities of the LC-1 to give me solid info anymore....
yeah send them over...im still curious just to see what they look like...I have a FM solenoid, not a GM like you are probably using anyways...
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05-18-2007, 11:44 AM
#100
How does the MS deal with injector lag time (offset on the link)? To get my RX7 injectors to work properly and the car to idle with out dumping in a pile of extra fuel I had to adjust the injector offset. Until I screwed with the offset I had to increase my master fuel about 20-25% to get an idle around 14.7:1. Now I'm back to about 95% master fuel and idles very well.
Could this be what Scott is seeing?
Also 36-40 what? KPA?
Could this be what Scott is seeing?
Also 36-40 what? KPA?
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