RMA'd the LC1 - Considering AEM UEGO
 

So I RMA'd the LC1 this last week. Since I got it it's been nothing but unreliable. Work for a while, be weird for a while, Error 8's for a bit, then more weirdness.

I now know that the Error 8's were probably due to it being in the stock location + no heatsink (doh), things did get better after I moved the ground (it's on a separate ground from the MS) - but damn this thing just isn't instilling confidence in me. Plus now I'm looking at picking up the heatsink/having a bung installed on my stock exhaust as well as a stand alone gauge.

All of this is making it awfully appealing to jump ship to the slightly less configurable (I hear) but much more forgiving (I also hear) AEM UEGO.

So I'm curious.
A) Can I run it in the stock location? Turbo downpipe? (less of an issue)
B) What would I be giving up that the LC1 can do?
C) What would I be gaining that the LC1 can't do?

Not recommended for any wideband sensor. Put it in the downpipe just before the catalytic converter, pointing straight up. Run the cable through a slit in the shifter boot. (The rubber boot which is visible after you remove the center console)
1: The AEM has only one output, whereas the LC1 has two. This is of absolutely no consequence with a MS.
2: The AEM cannot be user-calibrated
The AEM supposedly does not require any calibration, ever.

No you cannot run it in the stock location. Heat kills widebands, end of story, they can't handle it. 36" or 3' to be trouble free.
The LC1 is configurable and you can simulate a narrowband but once you connect it to MS and a gauge you run out of outputs anyway so its pointless.
The AEM gauge is the controller, it makes for a cleaner install.

Get a bung installed before your car, 36" or so down from the head. Run the wideband cable down under the shifter boot and it will be a direct shot for your bung if you place it right. Then zip tie the plastic connector piece on the UEGO somewhere so it doens't melt or get banged around all over.

+ Joe had the quickdraw on this one. The AEM never needs recalibration as it has a calibration resistor that takes care of that. You have to buy sensors from AEM if your's ever dies but they're really no more expensive than the regular bosch wideband sensor for the LC1 so it's not a big deal.

This is likely not a job for JB weld eh? haha... Obviously this is less of a problem with the BEGi S as I can have them add one there... but I'd like to get the MS somewhat dialed in before getting that.

Other than no narrow band output to the ECU for lack of CEL action eh?

As in no open air Calibrated or as in you can't set the range/curve like you can with the LC1 (the whole 0v=10 - 1v=20 or what have you action)

I'm so sick of those, that's a fantastic thing. haha.

He pretty much sums it up here. Like he said, since you are running ms, you don't need to emulate a narrowband. Although, you could probably just run both the narrowband and wideband.

I just switched from the LC-1 to the UEGO and I love it. I actually trust it! With my LC-1 I was getting all kinds of readings and it got to the point where I didn't believe it anymore. Don't get me wrong, I have heard a lot of good things about the LC-1. Take a trip over to the innovate forums, there are a lot of unhappy people. That is what made me decide to go with a UEGO instead of another LC-1. The UEGO was easier to hook up and I've had far less problems.

Thats just my .02

I run both the stock narrowband and the UEGO just for the purpose of keeping CELs at bay.
The AEM has two outputs; one for an ECU like MS and one more so you can directly datalog what it is outputting if you wire it into a DB9 cable apparently. I think you use hyperterminal or something bogus like that. (I never used this feature, its pretty worthless)

That's a great call. With the problem being the bung position and needing to add another I can just keep that sucker in place and that'd free me up to use output 2 for the gauge... niiiice.

Anyone know how much it runs to get an extra o2 bung installed?

In your stock exhaust or in the BEGI S kit? I'm pretty sure they by default install one bung for the narrowband and one more for the wideband.
To get one welded in your stock exhaust it could be anywhere from 20-100 bucks depending on where/who/how they do it. My local shop does it for 30 but only if they don't have to remove any of the exhaust. To do it right you will want to mark the spot on the downpipe that the sensor can be mounted vertically or 12 o-clock. Then remove the stock downpipe, drill a hole and get the bung welded in.
FWIW, the UEGO comes with a bung that can be welded into the stock exhaust so that expense is saved.

Yeah, stock, BEGi is a complete non issue. Looks like I may look into doing something like that myself depending the price range around here.

Sadly I shipped the bung off with the LC1 to Innovate so I'll have to wait for that one to come back before I attempt mangling the thing with JB Weld or worse, complete noob welding skills. Ah well.

really? really? Let me tell you, i've seen people try to use jb weld on exhaust. No dice.

Haha, I'm kidding. I've heard heat does wonky things to the stuff.

Though extra encouragement to stay the hell away is always appreciated.

=D

Mabye I'm lucky, but my LC-1 has been in the stock location in the DP since I installed it (12-13k miles) with no issues. It goes wacky every so often in really cold weather (sub-35), but it hasn't done that since I moved the ground to the stock ECU grounds by the TB.

If I had a properly-angled bung on my DP, it would be there.

Same here, stock headers with a JRSC though. I've got REALLY beefy (overkill really) power and grounds to my LC-1, maybe that is the key?

I've got some copper to make up the heatshield but it's not finished yet.

In many cases, yes. LC-1s are sensitive to ground issues and, to a lesser extent, problems with their power supply. But once they're wired up like that we've had pretty good luck with them in our own project cars.

I know I've heard that. Do you guys run separate power and grounds exclusive for the LC1? Or do you just tap separate ones that are going to the ECU? (Edit: By separate I mean ones not going to the Megasquirt)

If the former are running wires all the way to the back of the engine for ground and where do you get your power? I seem to recall someone mentioning getting 12v from the ignition or something a while back for their LC1.

Basically I'm willing to re do this whole sucker if it means I'll have less problems. :)

I'm RMA'ing my UEGO for the second time. Got it Christmas. :(

They didnt fix it the first time.

I run a nice fat ground directly to the same point on the block that the ECU gets it's ground from. That's a big deal. Then I get a good 12v switched source, generally from the fuel pump relay. That's what I did on my '90 Miata. I can honestly say I've never had anything put perfection out of my LC-1's. Some may choose not to trust me because I sell them and that's cool. Those that know me know I don't BS regardless of what I sell. If it was a bad product there's too many others out there, I'd sell there's instead. But it's just not, like anything it must be properly installed, and it's bar none the most accurate affordable wideband on the market.

Remember this-- a precision instrument requires precise installation. You want it to read and function perfectly? Install it perfectly. It's a garbage in garbage out principle. (<--not aimed at anyone in particular, but this is so true, particularly with widebands and EMS's.)

I've got a Motec PLM in my dyno. To be fair it has an older firmware on it from a couple years back, but Motec wants to charge me to upgrade it so I haven't. But I've had both the Motec PLM and an LC-1 on my 90 Miata at the same time when dynoing, and when I tried to push 15psi on the stock ignition and started blowing out spark, the LC-1 was fast enough to show the lean spikes for each and every misfire event. The PLM missed nearly all of them. I was able to datalog and repeat this time and time again. I'm also able to calibrate both units and the PLM reads about .75 AFR leaner than the LC-1 on average it seems. I can tell the LC-1 is the more accurate as when tuning a turbo car to say 11.8:1 AFR on the LC-1 at 15psi, it's nice and happy, clear exhaust for the most part. If I target the same 11.8:1 AFR using the PLM, because it reads .75 ish lean, then I'm really ending up tuning closer to 11:1, and the car is a bit down on power, and blows black smoke on the pull which means too much fuel. The LC-1 is all around better. Guess what I'm pulling out of my dyno soon and guess what I'm putting in it instead?

Believe me, I fully expected the PLM to be superior with the reputation the maker has, and I'm still surprised as the results of my testing, and maybe I just got a bad one or the older firmware is the issue, but I've seen with my own eyes repeatedly the LC-1 just plain does an awesome job time after time. Accurate and fast.

I don't know much about the AEM. I do know that I'm glad I have to calibrate my sensor. Any instrument that is supposed to provide that fine level of detail, and that you're expecting perfection and accuracy out of, using a sensor that will be effected by usage, time, and abuse in some cases, will need to be calibrated. Do you think the lab quality widebands never need calibration? No way, actually they calibrate using specific lab grade gases that signify an exact AFR the instrument should read. Most of us don't have those gases laying around so we use the atmosphere, which does the trick fairly well for the average user. IMO any argument against this is just a marketing appeal towards the users laziness and a likely compromise in the performance of the system.

I totally agree, and also, if you want to buy another lc-1 buy it from diyautotune.com. Their support is impeccable.

This is some excellent information. When I get mine back I think I'll try doing this and see how I fair. Thanks a ton for chiming in.

I guess I hadn't thought of it, I could have called you guys when I had problems since I bought it from you, eh? Doh! Now I know.

From all of the replies so far I'm thinking I just had my install jacked on the LC-1. I'm going to give it another go when it comes back before writing it off. It was just unbelievably frustrating to have no trust in such an important piece of equipment.

I second this. I received better support from DIY than I did from the company I actually bought my MS from... makes me regret being a cheap-ass.

Find an independent muffler shop in your area. Not one of the chain stores such as Midas, but a simple mom-and-pop sort of place like "Bob's Muffler". Bring your downpipe in to them (off the car) with the location for the bung marked. Generally, at this sort of shop they will be glad to provide you with a bung and install it for very little money. When I bought my Tony pipe a while back, I had just such a local shop install three bungs (NB, WB, and EGT) for about $25- I supplied the 1/8" EGT bung and one of the two O2 bungs and pre-drilled the holes for those two, they supplied the other O2 bung and drilled a hole for it in the location I marked with a sharpie.

edit:

Here's a picture of the WBO2 bung on my downpipe. It's an odd perspective, but this is a few inches upstream of the cat. Now pictured is how the cable is routed. The connection point where the sensor cable plugs into the gauge cable is affixed with tie-wraps to a point on the top of the transmission. The cable then goes up the shifter boot and to the gauge, which is in one of the center eyeball vents.

https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/att...1&d=1159508417

We're definitely here for you man-- the key info on the install is above, and we can help with the config info when getting it talking to the MS if needed also (that's in our FAQ as well). I know how frustrating it can be when things don't work right, and a wideband is something you need to be able to trust if you're tuning with it. That's for sure. But I'm confident in the Innovate line -- properly installed and setup I've found them to be very solid.

Anything we can do just let us know...

I can't recall the size but you can find nuts the correct size and thread pitch to use as O2 bungs at a hardware store. I used to get them at ACE for about .75 cents a pop.

I agree with everything that Foundsoul is saying, I had constant LC1 problems to the point where I wanted to burn it and get an AEM. But after a proper installation, with a proper +12v and a proper ground, all problems disappeared and it has been trouble free ever since.

Its extremely picky to power and ground. You dont need fat grounds, or fat power for it, just has to be tapped at the right places.

M18 x 1.5

I may have overstated with the word 'fat' when referring to grounding, I think I used an 18-20ga wire and that's plenty. Same for 12v. Location, Location, Location ;).

I might as well just type it again, in case someone finds this thread and is having LC1 problems.

The power has to be tapped off a switched 12v, specifically one that is hot in run and crank, not one that turns on and off like radio and the blue plug under the hood when transitioning between run and crank(on off on causes errors). It also has to be a clean power source that means either the MAF, ECU or etc. As for the ground. All of its grounds have to be grounded to a single point, that includes a Megasquirt and Gauge ground and that has to be then grounded to the engine.

Once I made all these things true, all problems went away. The only time I had to perform a free air calibration in like 3 months was after I changed where the gauge got its power. Yea, that through it off too. After the calibration, again no problems ever.

That info is priceless.

So, what would you recommend for a 12v? I am using the blue clip right now...

I like the fuel pump relay-- easily tapped on the bottom of the fuse box at the pass side of the engine compartment. Just do it cleanly...

Jerry,

Where do you locate the LC-1? I have mine in the center console and run the cable for the 02 sensor through the shifter hole. I picked up the power and ground from the same place I used for my link. I spliced off the main ECU harness.

Can you suggest a better place?

After being exposed to both the AEM and Innovate products, IMO Innovate simply kicks the snot out of the AEM. The Innovate simply does everything better and is more useful. So what if it costs $100 more; it's worth it. (UEGO vs XD/LC package). Going to the UEGO from the LC is a backwards move.

you guys with all the LC-1 troubles astonish me....

You say that, but when you run the LC with MS, you get AFR target charts in actual AFR. With the UEGO, the target tables are all in Voltage. Not a problem you say? Well, you'd just need an accurate table that shows AFR vs Voltage out. Problem is, the only tables I could find were just plain wrong.

We tried to re-write the code in MS to switch voltage in favor of AFR, but fucking Vista wouldn't let us save the changes.

Interesting. My AFR target table is set up in AFR units, and it seems to be working pretty well. Maybe a .1 or .2 discrepancy, it's hard to be sure as it's definitely within the noise envelope of normal AFR fluctuation. I remember that there was a tweak I had to make, I believe it was in one of the INI files (msns-extra.ini I think?), but there was definitely no changing of the core MS code.

The howto was somewhere in this forum. Lemme search around and see if I can find it...

edit Here we are. It was a change to both msns-extra.ini and my MSQ file.

The local version: https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/sho...0&postcount=12

and the original inspiration: http://forums.plastikracing.net/view...?p=52097#52097

MAF or ECU

Cmon, have a little sympathy. Its easy when shit works right from the first time, but when it doesnt you start to wonder wtf is going. You would never suspect something simple as power and ground to be the culprit.

Thats where I have mine now. Such an awesome fit too. As for power, at the ECU. Grounded to one of the bolts on the ECU bracket with a ground from the MS and a ground line running back to the engine.

not when you read the manual and see this:

2.3 Electrical Grounding Concerns

The electrical environment inside a car provides unique challenges, combining high voltages and currents, low-voltage signals, convoluted signal paths, and variable conditions (i.e., fans turning on and off, or starter cranking).

When using precision electronics, it is important for ALL electronics to share a common ground. Remember that “Ground” is more than just the return path for any circuit- it is also the reference against which any voltage is measured.

Since it is not always practical to ground every device to the exact same location, here are some tips on grounding:

1. The BEST grounding scheme is all grounds (i.e., ECU, Gauges, LC1 heater, LC1 system, etc.) SOLDERED into a single lug and bolted to the engine block.

2. The next best is all grounds attached to the same source, as close as possible, but on separate lugs. This is because even the corrosion between lugs can create ground offset and noise. Incidentally, this is why many ECUs have separate ground wires for injectors vs. ECU system ground- separating high voltages and low voltages reduces noise.

3. Grounding to the engine block is usually better than grounding to the frame.

4. Grounding a gauge to the radio is usually bad- ground offset can vary with volume.

5. Grounding to an ECU housing is generally not optimal- housings are strapped to the frame for shielding, but not necessarily grounded.

6. One of the WORST things to do is to ground most of your electronics to one place (i.e. the engine block), but ground one device somewhere else (i.e., the frame). Not only can this result in ground offsets, it can also create a “path of least resistance” for high currents THROUGH a low-current device. This can result in melted wires and vaporized diodes, when, for example, starter currents flow through gauges.

We saw that. Vista wouldn't allow us to save the changes to the ini, nor would it allow up to open the msq in notepad. It was frustrating.

vista wont let you save things in the program files folder....is lame!


copy the files somewhere else, then open them up and save, then copy and paste them over the files you wanna change. that shoudl work.

Notepad has a bug in it under Vista (SP1 might fix it?). It doesn't appear to be playing nice with UAC even if you are admin and have access to the file system. It's like Notepad doesn't recognize that you have"authenticated" and ignores the UAC permission. Goofy, but it's Microsoft right?

Fix, turn off UAC until they get their shit together.

Yeah, that's what we did for the .ini file. But then it wouldn't let us access the msq file. vista = turd.

No shit? Seems like every successive generation of Windows does more and more hand-holding and idiot proofing, but historically there's always been a simple way to bypass it. Like XP- initially it won't let you view the contents of /Program Files or /Windows, but there's a button right there that says "I'm not an idiot, let me in."

Guess I didn't realize that so many people were already using Vista. I've still got 2000 on my in-car PC, and XP Pro on all of my other machines. Just haven't seen a compelling reason to upgrade yet.

It's a security feature, just hasn't been implemented properly. There are a lot of improvments to security, some are just a little rough around the edges. The thing to understand is that the majority of computer users are idiots that do need to have their hands held and to protect them from themselves.

Microsoft Operating systems suck ass AT LEAST until the first service pack is rolled out. I wouldn't run Vista on anything I cared strongly about until after April 15th's SP1 is released to the wild.

Back OT ... my LC1 appears to run fine. But how do you know?

See and this is where you're wrong. You assume that everyone can read.

I hope youre right, but something tells me even after the SP Vista is still going to be an over bloated bitch just like OSX.

I am happy that XP Sp3 came out. I already made myself a new unnattended CD with tweaks, addons and all the trimmings I need for smooth and seamless installs.

XP will never die. Its the last of the Windows OS's that let you decide how you want your computer to work.

Bothersome that such basic functionality is crippled.

For those of you who can remember back to the days when 80x25 with functional upper and lower-case was pretty cutting edge, have you tried editing the file from the command line? I'm not sure if the old EDIT.COM application is still included with Vista, but it's definitely in XP and I still use it from time to time.

Seems that if this protection is something that's happening at the GUI level, then going at it this way might work. If it's a filesystem protection, then I suspect there's just nothing for it.

i can still open msqs in notepad....ben fails!

Yup read that. However there's still room to get it wrong as it is grounded to same place as all of the rest of the electronics. Of course there's a minute difference between "sharing" and running a separate ground to the same location as everything else. Right now it's using it's sharing a ground with the stock ECU but just to be very very sure I'm going to run an independent line.

To reduce the number of ground leads going through the firewall, howzabout running just one really fat one, say 8 or 10 awg, that goes from the block to a ground bus behind the stereo? Then ground everything to that bus with crimped-on lugs? Just need a copper block with several 10-32 threads in it. It would be behind the stereo so it should be safe from corrosion, heat. Is this sound logic?

[IMG]http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/h.../gndscheme.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/h...t/gndbus-1.jpg[/IMG]