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Old 11-07-2010, 01:54 AM   #1
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Default She's ALIVEEEEEEE

Tired as hell, my back feels like I got molested by 50 buffalos, but the DIYPNP is finally mounted, hooked up, and the car is more or less running.

I am happy for now




The purpose of this thread is to ask questions and hopefully iron out my tuning and get my **** running right with this new unit, and since I'm running huge injectors, pump, and e85 my car is definitely more finicky and I have many more questions than the typical 460cc/t25 setup on here. Didn't want to clutter up the "diypnp group buy" thread with 100 questions.



So first some comments:

1) this "BASE MAP" is definitely not going to work for me much. startup and warmup enrichments need a LOT of work.

2) after hooking everything up the car fired up IMMEDIATELY which was surprising. died within 3 seconds or so. Added ASE percentage, still dies. Added more. Still dies. Added a TON more now it idles longer but still dies. I bumped warmup enrichments WAYYY up so now it idles without dying. idles low, like 800-900, then goes up to 1400 and stays there. Definitely need to get that down, but the idle is very steady and doesn't jump around at all. progress

3) so now its idling, as soon as I touch the throttle it dies. I calibrated the tps and still dies. Then I look at the map. its WAYYYY too lean everywhere, so I bump it up a TON. it was in the high 40's low 50's, I had to bump up the cells to 65-68 just to be able to rev the car. so now it revs without dying. good. moving on..

4) I take it down the street very slowly watching the afr like a hawk. its lean as **** everywhere. I bump up the whole map by like 10 points and now its decent.



So ya:
Super tired and done for tonight, but its definitely progress and I got it running without much trouble, which is great.

It still takes a WHILE to fire up after sitting for 10-20 minutes (gave it a quick bath), so like I said: startup and warmup will need a lot of work.


But 1st impressions about this unit are that its PRETTY GOOD and definitely easier to set up then the adaptronic.

One thing that kinda sucks is that you have to constantly press "BURN" after every tweak to make the changes, whereas on the adap is "live" so changes are instantaneous as soon as you plug them into the table. No biggie but will take some time to get used to.

I'll be getting the autotune feature for 40 bux since I've read some great reviews of it. Hopefully that will make my life easy and simple.


Hopefully with your guys' help I'll figure out this startup bullshit and get it squared away.

PS: am I the 1st e85 diypnp miata?

Last edited by 18psi; 11-07-2010 at 01:08 AM.
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Old 11-07-2010, 01:03 AM   #2
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awesome. always satisfying when it works at end of the day.

i hope to follow in your footsteps once i get my ms3 built.
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Old 11-07-2010, 01:32 AM   #3
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I'd get the registered version of Tunerstudio ASAP. You can just dial in rich values in your VE table, create a target AFR table and just let Tunerstudio dial in your VE table. If there was only an autotune feature for timing and a Android touchscreen compatible version of Tunerstudio so I could run a 10" Android tablet, I'd be ecstatic.

Is the ecu the only change you've made in your setup?
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Old 11-07-2010, 01:43 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph B View Post
I'd get the registered version of Tunerstudio ASAP. You can just dial in rich values in your VE table, create a target AFR table and just let Tunerstudio dial in your VE table. If there was only an autotune feature for timing and a Android touchscreen compatible version of Tunerstudio so I could run a 10" Android tablet, I'd be ecstatic.

Is the ecu the only change you've made in your setup?
Yes the diypnp is the ONLY change.

I really don't believe in timing autotune. The adaptronic had it and I used it a little bit, but I just wouldn't trust it to be as accurate as dialing it in the PROPER way on a dyno and all that. I have my timing map left over from the Adaptronic and its a very solid one, so I'll just copy/paste it into this unit. Then when I get a chance to get dyno time I"ll focus on that for the most part.
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Old 11-07-2010, 02:46 AM   #5
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Here is a screen shot to show what I did:

NEW


OLD


As you can see, ASE percentage is spiked and warmup enrichments are spiked.
Now I'm NOT saying that the values I put in are correct or best or what not (THAT I'm hoping to get input from you guys on and have it set up right), but entering those settings made the car not die within a few seconds after fire up, and able to idle and rev without dying for the most part.

Also look at how much fuel I added to the table to keep afr's from going into the 17's.




Also I'm searching but can't find it: where/how do you set up the injector dead times in this ecu?

I have this chart that came with my ID1000's and can't even find a place where I'd need to input those values:



*edit: reading the msextra.com documentation it looks as though there is no "table" for injector settings. Just one value you put in for high imp and low imp and that's it.

Very interesting. So the chart I have for the ID's is pretty much useless?

Last edited by 18psi; 11-07-2010 at 03:22 AM.
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Old 11-07-2010, 02:57 AM   #6
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LASTLY (for tonight) just remembered something:

I didn't check timing yet. Going to have to go get a timing light from the shop tomorrow. Could THAT be way off causing the car to not start quickly? Its an NB, so I don't think theres any physical way to adjust it, but it still might be off.
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Old 11-07-2010, 04:02 AM   #7
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I'm stuck at the election comitee (elections today and all), I'll reply in full tomorrow.
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Old 11-07-2010, 07:52 AM   #8
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Did you adjust your required fuel for injectors and e85? Also, reverent and everyone else will ask you to post your entire .msq here, get that done so they can help you out.

You cam start by making a decent afr target table and auto tuning out of boost for that. Accel fuel enrichments, required fuel, and timing will all have a big impact on whether or not it'll even start, much less drive, and then you've still got the fuel table to tweak. It's pointless to change values until everything else is set.
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Old 11-07-2010, 02:48 PM   #9
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Thats a great idea.

Here it is, uploaded.


I thought req fuel and all that was already done by Reverant. Maybe not though. Basically my biggest problem right now is the startup/warmup. I feel that if I figure that part out the rest will be fairly easy since I'm not a noob to tuning.

With the adaptronic it took forever to get it to where it started without much hassle and warmed up without hiccups, because there was only ONE other person running it with e85, bellwilliam, and his settings on my car didn't work at all. So I was **** out of luck and had to figure it out for myself.
Attached Files
File Type: msq 2010-11-06_23.41.31.msq (78.9 KB, 73 views)

Last edited by 18psi; 11-07-2010 at 05:23 PM.
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Old 11-07-2010, 02:58 PM   #10
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i used the 99 00 base map and it did exactly what you described... would start up... idle for a few seconds then die. I had to add quite a bit to the VE table in the idle region, and that got it started long enough so I could fine tune it better. But..I was running stock injectors, blah blah blah so i had a relatively simple setup obviously vs yours.
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Old 11-07-2010, 05:54 PM   #11
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Get your engine to full temp and then tune the idle cells and some at light load, idle blipping zones etc. VE Autotune is great at this when set to easy/normal. Once they are dialled in, they won't need major changes again. You can then dial in WUE properly on your next cold start. Just let the car idle from complete cold to fully warm with the WUE map open and taper the curve to suit. This is how I tuned mine anyway. I now get a nice 13.8:1 during warm-up which I have tapering out at 90*C to zero WUE.
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Old 11-07-2010, 06:00 PM   #12
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that's a great idea, thanx.
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Old 11-08-2010, 01:03 AM   #13
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Alright so I've been the msextra documentation about tuning twice and tweaking with the settings.


I lowered ase percentage down to what it was. It was my VE map that needed tuning, and since I've richened it up there is no need to spike the ACE percentage settings.

My warmup enrichments are still high (like I posted in the msq) and car seems to warm up decently with them that way. Idle is a bit high still, around 1200 or so.

So just a tiny bit of progress but its progress none the less.


It still doesn't fire up right away. Takes about 3-4 times cranking it about 3-4 seconds each time, then it catches. So my cranking fuel needs to be raised right???





On another note I think I have a coolant leak at the water pump, AGAIN. Going to check it out tomorrow.
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Old 11-08-2010, 04:33 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
It still doesn't fire up right away. Takes about 3-4 times cranking it about 3-4 seconds each time, then it catches. So my cranking fuel needs to be raised right???
Yup. The basemap you have is from a 1.8 with 1000cc HKS injectors. Said car starts every single time, no problems at all. Unfortunately I don't have access to E85 to experiment, so no experience at all with it.
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Old 11-08-2010, 09:24 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Here is a screen shot to show what I did:

NEW


god those warmup enrichments are fucked...IF you leave the last value at 180% for warmup, anytime you are above it, you'll always be adding 80% more fuel.

Here is what I use:

Warumup Curve

-40 229
-20 214
0 201
20 187
40 174
60 160
75 149
100 133
135 112
165 100

ASE%

10 50
30 48
50 46
70 44
90 42
110 40
130 38
150 36
167 33
195 29

ASE Taper:

10 350
30 331
50 313
70 296
90 277
110 256
130 236
150 219
167 202
195 181

I think you need to lower your Req_feul number, what size injectors and what is the number now?



IIRC only MS3 has the battery dead time curve, the next MS2 firmware should get it, maybe 3.0.3v has it.
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Old 11-09-2010, 01:31 AM   #16
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18psi, you adjust the timing offset in MS. You don't have to change anything mechanically. Should be under one of the menus on the toolbar with the sensor calibrations. I was stupid and forgot to set mine initially, so when I checked it with a timing light, I found it was -9.5 degrees offset from the 10 BTDC that base timing should be.

Also make sure you set Use Fixed Advance under More Ignition Options when you're doing it. This way it's not advancing with your table and you can see if you have to change any latency settings when you rev it.
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Old 11-09-2010, 01:45 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverant View Post
Yup. The basemap you have is from a 1.8 with 1000cc HKS injectors. Said car starts every single time, no problems at all. Unfortunately I don't have access to E85 to experiment, so no experience at all with it.
is there any sort of chart for them? I would like to verify their dead times with the chart I posted earlier for my injectors and make sure they are set up properly.



Quote:
Originally Posted by messiahx View Post
18psi, you adjust the timing offset in MS. You don't have to change anything mechanically. Should be under one of the menus on the toolbar with the sensor calibrations. I was stupid and forgot to set mine initially, so when I checked it with a timing light, I found it was -9.5 degrees offset from the 10 BTDC that base timing should be.

Also make sure you set Use Fixed Advance under More Ignition Options when you're doing it. This way it's not advancing with your table and you can see if you have to change any latency settings when you rev it.
Thanx, that is the 1st thing I will do before any more tuning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
god those warmup enrichments are fucked...IF you leave the last value at 180% for warmup, anytime you are above it, you'll always be adding 80% more fuel.

Here is what I use:

Warumup Curve

-40 229
-20 214
0 201
20 187
40 174
60 160
75 149
100 133
135 112
165 100

ASE%

10 50
30 48
50 46
70 44
90 42
110 40
130 38
150 36
167 33
195 29

ASE Taper:

10 350
30 331
50 313
70 296
90 277
110 256
130 236
150 219
167 202
195 181

I think you need to lower your Req_feul number, what size injectors and what is the number now?



IIRC only MS3 has the battery dead time curve, the next MS2 firmware should get it, maybe 3.0.3v has it.
Thank you. I will give these values a shot for sure.

My injectors are Injector Dynamics 1000cc
The current Req fuel is 3.1.

Is that too much?
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Old 11-09-2010, 01:48 AM   #18
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On another note, It looks like as of yesterday the car developed a hefty coolant leak somewhere around the water pump. So for the 3rd damn time I'll have to pull the pump and try to pinpoint it and hopefully fix it once and for all...



This after the car has been great for the past 5 months or so
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Old 11-14-2010, 05:02 AM   #19
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UPDATE

Finally the coolant leak is taken care of (and oh boy do I hope to NEVER deal with that bs again)

Back to tuning.

Brain, can you answer this question?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
My injectors are Injector Dynamics 1000cc
The current Req fuel is 3.1.
Is that too much?
So today I went to our shop and did a timing test. PLEASE TELL ME IF THIS IS RIGHT: with the car warmed up I hooked up the timing gun to a spare battery and started "shooting" the wheel with the gun set to 10*. FROM WHAT I READ the mark I need to line up with the 10* mark on the plastic cover is the LEFT one. Right? Cause there are two notches on the wheel.

Also per the m.net garage writeup I'm supposed to connect slot 10v with ground to lock down the timing? I didn't really understand that. so I didn't do it. Did I MESS UP?

Anyways, I set it to "fixed timing" and it looked like my timing was advanced about 1 degree. So in IGNITION TABLE OFFSET I had to bump it down from 4 to 2.5 and the left notch on the pulley finally matched up with the mark on the cover.


I know this is noobish as ****, but I never had to check timing on a miata before so can someone that knows how its done confirm whether I did it right or what?
The m.net instructions are ALL for pre 99




Next I got VE AutoAnalyzer for 40 bux. Seems to be a great program from what I can see. It seems to be working good, but I really haven't tweaked with it much yet, so some input would be appreciated.

What are you guys settings in it? its set to 50 control, is that too high? Or should I leave it at 50, get a rough map, then lower it down to 30 or 20 or something?


Any input will be greatly appreciated and I'll definitely be reading up more on this tomorrow.


But as of right now startup seems pretty decent. Will have to test COLD START again tomorrow and see how it is, but hot restarts today were not bad at all. Idle is still at 1100 or so, so I wanna get that down a tad, and sometimes it goes up to 1300 and stays there, so I'll have to check that out.




BUT OVERALL SOME PROGRESS AND CAR IS DRIVEABLE YAY

Last edited by 18psi; 11-14-2010 at 05:12 AM.
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Old 11-14-2010, 05:09 AM   #20
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Glad your making progress man, if i knew anything about anything i would give some input. lol
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