Should I Ditch Hydra?
 

I probably already know the answer, but I'd like to get a few more opinions. I bought a used FM2 kit with Hydra 2.7 at the beginning of the year and have hardly driven the car this year because of how frustrating the tuning has been. The Hydra was purchased from KO Racing in Oregon rather than from FM, so it doesn't have the same specs as FM's, namely Long Term Trim / autotune.

I can unlock the LTT feature for $175, but I'm tempted to cut my losses and jump ship to MS due to the vastly larger amount of info and support available here. I know Jeremy at FM is a Hydra genius, but I generally don't have time to call during business hours and emails replies have typically taken a week.

I've read that Hydra's can be great once the tune is dialed in, and I assume the current tech in MS has reached or eclipsed Hydra's level of refinement by now. I guess my main worry is that MS will be just as much of an uphill battle for me as Hydra has been. I'm not interested in eeking every hp out of my setup or messing with special features like traction control, I just want a smooth reliable tune. Given that I have a pretty standard setup, how close am I going to be with a MS basemap?

Base map is to get the car running well enough to allow tuning. This applies to every ecu. I learned by doing and reading. No one else has tuned my car and I had never tuned before. It is a fun and interesting thing to learn.

Tuner Studio deluxe version is $60 and includes auto tuning for fuel and warm up enrichment. And it works with all models of Megasquirt.

And since you did not buy the Hydra from FM Jeremy will not help you for free. I have a Hydra and I plan on keeping it but if I had to do over It would not be the Hydra. You need to look at how much you will lose and how much you already have in it. It may be more economical to just add the LTFT to it. But it may be less of a head ache to sell the Hydra and get a MS.

Also what sixshooter said.

My base was for the 240cc injectors. I have 1000cc installed now. Fine tuning is always needed.

Good to know, thank you. I'm fine with learning, I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't want to be in a situation where I have to fiddle with it every other time I drive and it becomes a burden and no fun to take out for a date night.

Yeah I already paid FM for the support membership, before I realized how inconvenient it would be for me to get support in my situation.
I'm alright with losing a little money if it will result in a better running car for me, I'm trying to avoid getting stuck in a sunk cost fallacy situation.

Inconvenient for everyone except those that live close to FM. I stopped using the FM support almost year ago and started playing around with it myself. It runs better since I started learning on my own than when I was trying to get it done over the phone. I still wished I went with the MS. If you lived close to Louisville KY I would help you out with it.

I paid FM a LOT of money to dyno tune my Hydra car. It still ran like crap. Hours on the phone got me nowhere. Selling it and replacing with a different ecu solved everything. After a total of 3 hours including install and dyno, the car ran smoother than it ever had, and made more power.

Hydra: Never Again.

I was in the exact same situation as you.

My Hydra came directly from FM though and had the LTT/AT unlocked. Got it for nothing as it came with my car.

I ending up paying Ken Hill for a few hours of time and had him tune it for me and learned through the whole process. At the end of the day I am very happy with the Hydra and its capabilities. The car runs amazing and I really didn't want to uninstall/install to get a new EMS which essentially does the same thing.

The Hydra has its quirks and the UI is not as pretty as the MS, but you can't beat free. I will highly recommend getting Ken to help though, as there is no way I could have done it by myself. There just isn't fuck all for info on how to properly use the thing. Some random youtube videos and the FM manual is about all you can find and you need WAY more than that to get it working properly.

I passionately hate the hydra interface and just about everything about it.
That said, just like with everything: time/effort vs money. I see good things posted about Ken, I'd probably ask him for his services, or take the many hours/days/weeks/months to learn it all yourself.

That is all.

Right

Once I go F/I I might be switching to MS

I am quite familiar with a couple of stand alone ECUS(MS,Link,Ecumaster), I mostly tune stand alones for a living.
Tuned a hydra 2.5 last month (odin#9681 owner's nick), perhaps the only hydra that I know of in Greece.
Frankly, it was a trully frustrating experience.

First of all, the initial tune was done by an "experienced" tuner before years and it was mediocre to say at least.
Hardware-wise the ecu seemed solid and very fast, software on the other hand is a PITA for sure(2.7 is better from what i've seen).
Map scrolling is hideous, you can't make live changes in VE or ignition, so for the smallest refinement you have to edit offline, then burn the map from scratch, a very time consuming task, if you also account the fact that there is a whole procedure for this.

After a couple sessions, the car feels nice, but not 100% perfect, so another tuning session is needed.
If you can tune it yourself go for it, I hardly doubt there will be a tuner locally that can/will tune it well enough

Personally, If I Would tune a Hydra again, i would charge x2 for sure, it is a very time consuming and counterintuitive task.

Local friend has a Hydra which seems to perform well on the road and track; but there is a running joke that he did sit and tune his idle in my driveway for over an hour one night.:rofl:

one 2.7 changes to ignition and fuel can be done on the fly. While driving. No need to edit offline. But make no mistake it is easier to make bigger changes offline still. When tuning on the street it is long process with this ems. This is my first and only ems that I have had. I had to learn with it. I look forward to the day I can play with another ems to see the difference.

Thanks again for all of the user input! It seems like my initial thoughts may be correct - Hydra can be made to work fine, but I'm more likely to have success with MS.
I've been starting to study the subforum here. A lot of the threads are several years old, so I'm trying to get caught up with current information.
I know that I'll need MS3 at a minimum for my 2001. I want it to be plug and play, so my options are MSPNP-Pro, Braineack-built, or MSLabs, right?

Please correct me if I'm wrong:
MSPNP-Pro is kind of the standard
Braineack builds essentially the same for less money
MSLabs is more custom-built with additional features built in

How am I doing so far?

MSPNP-Pro has stateside support.
Braineack you'll have to live with the knowledge that his weird spider-fingers have been in your box.
MSLabs you might become one of those statistics where you end up having to make a thread to get Rev's attention because he won't answer your PMs, emails, and might have your box on RMA for months at a time on the other side of the world. (Issues may be alleviated by buying MSLabs through Trackspeed.)

I bought a mild track-prepared MSM with an FM II this spring. The car felt "off" and, while it made power, it didn't feel particularly happy about it. After awhile, it started missing under high-boost/high-load situations. I sent my map to Jeremy for review and he told me that the previous owner had gone his own way with respect to the tune (I think he had it dyno-tuned locally). Jeremy declined to work with this particular map and suggested I start with a new baseline based on my current setup.

After the new map was installed, the car was instantly better - no more lethargic feeling through the gears and no more miss. It felt exactly like an FM II should feel. The LTT (long-term trim) has refined the map over time and the car drives as well as if it were still on the OEM ECU (without, you know, the melting pistons and other catastrophic failures that would accompany boost). On my street car ('93 with 2L stroker and GT3071R) I have achieved the same sort of drivability nirvana. Hydra LTT is definitely a worthwhile investment and I think it'll sort out all your problems.

spot on. each has their ups and downs, but some have had a LOT more downs lately. Like a whole lot

only an hour? I've sat in driveways and tuned idle for so many hours... even on MS.

Black Friday(Wednesday?) claims another victim.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...1bd7c8402a.jpg

You won't regret it :)

I'll be bugging you for tuning in the Spring. ;)