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Old 09-14-2013, 05:35 PM   #1
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Red face START UP issues, MS3x + dw200 + ID1000's **E85**

Ok so I'm finally tuning the car. Its a stock 2001 n/a for the time being til I get all the little details and trims ironed out so this thing behaves like OEM. The only parts installed are: MS3x, ID1000 injectors, dw200 fuel pump. And its exclusively on e85.

I have basically 3 issues I'm working through right now, but this thread will be dedicated to just the 1 (at least for the time being).

The issue: The car starts rough.
On cold start, it will turn over at least 5 or so times, and then finally "catch" but after that for about 5 seconds or so it will run like its going nuts: sounds like it runs on 3 cylinders, shakes pretty hard, then after about 5 seconds it calms down and behaves totally normal and idles fairly consistently.

It does something similar when hot too, but not as drastic. Same spinning over for about 5 times, same weirdness when it finally catches, although its not as rough when hot.

So I'm fairly certain my prime pulse, crank pw, and other startup settings need desperate help. Funny thing is I tried the settings I had on my '00 and it was even worse. That car started perfectly on the same setup except it was a rev built ms2e vs this brain built ms3x.

I tried increasing the values, and it was still rough and sometimes felt like it was flooding. I tried decreasing, and still nothing. This stupid Innovate wideband warms up forever, so that's another thing I have to do (wire it in directly for the time being so i can actually see actual afr during cranking).

Anywho, here are my settings:



*Let me know if I'm missing some settings or tables that you'd like me to post up that are relevant to this thread*

Can anyone help me out and see what I'm doing wrong?
Can anyone post their settings for the same setup?
I know there are others using similar fuel and fueling system and ecu.

Thanks a bunch.
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START UP issues, MS3x + dw200 + ID1000's **E85**-rough-start-up.jpg  

Last edited by 18psi; 09-14-2013 at 05:46 PM.
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Old 09-14-2013, 05:57 PM   #2
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have you tuned your closed loop idle settings?

I had hard starts despite adjusting ASE and warmup when I first got my ms3x. Didn't realize there was a closed loop idle initial values where I can set the exact duty for the valve. After raising up values, thing starts great every time
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Old 09-14-2013, 06:58 PM   #3
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hmm, I don't think so.

Are you talking about these?




Haven't really messed with them. Just minor tweaks here and there. When the car is actually running, my idle is pretty nice. No fluctuations or issues or anything. I'm really happy with it.

But you're saying that those values can be affecting cranking/startup pretty drastically??

By the way I gotta add: it actually doesn't start too rough when hot. Just when completely cold. When hot it still spins over for like 5 times, but then start pretty normal after.
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Old 09-14-2013, 07:59 PM   #4
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Isn't valve mode suppose to be inverted?
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Old 09-15-2013, 04:28 AM   #5
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you need to take a look at your idle settings, namely your valve frequency. have you checked out the idle valve test stuff? works wonders. something I can't live without, especially after using a diypnp. I don't know who I even got my diypnp idle to work. EDIT: I've got a 94, so not sure what frequencies the NB's like

these are my current settings which work really well right now

looking at your closed loop initial values table, your Y axis is screwed up. It's not a kpa load, it's actually coolant temp

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Old 09-16-2013, 10:14 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Impuls View Post
Isn't valve mode suppose to be inverted?
no idea.
can someone chime in on this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmxfuel007 View Post
you need to take a look at your idle settings, namely your valve frequency. have you checked out the idle valve test stuff? works wonders. something I can't live without, especially after using a diypnp. I don't know who I even got my diypnp idle to work. EDIT: I've got a 94, so not sure what frequencies the NB's like

these are my current settings which work really well right now

looking at your closed loop initial values table, your Y axis is screwed up. It's not a kpa load, it's actually coolant temp
Oh snap, thanks man, will look into all of this.

To be honest I haven't really messed with the frequency or idle valve settings much at all. On my last Miata ( '00 with ms2e ) the base map was really close to spot on, and I tried the idle valve test with no conclusive results (or maybe I didnt do it right, I dunno). I ended up making very minor tweaks based on some suggestions and it ended up working fine.

With the MS3x its all very different, and I'm fairly new to all these new settings (and the MS3 alltogether), so I'm trying to figure out what does what and the kind of strategy I'm supposed to follow to getting this thing dialed in.

The warmed up/running idle is surprisingly good as is. The base map settings I posted were developed on another '01, so I'm sure many things should be close to ideal on my car too, but obviously need fine tuning.

Thanks again for your input and I'll most definitely be giving your suggestions a shot today or tomorrow and reporting back.
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Old 09-16-2013, 06:24 PM   #7
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keep in mind, just because it came off another car of the same year really means nothing. it might be kind of close, but I've tuned a car of the exact same year as mine, and for the idle and even initial values, it's quite different. You gotta find out the frequencies for your specific idle valve if you want it to work anywhere near how it's supposed to be

change your Y value on your closed loop initial values table, really. the numbers correspond to temp, whether Fahrenheit or celcius, yours don't make sense either way
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Old 09-18-2013, 11:01 AM   #8
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Ok so I messed with it and seem to make progress only to find out on a separate start that I fail at this LOL

Couple observations:

-I still haven't figured out where to draw direct current from the fusebox for the stupid MTX to stay on through startup so I can actually see afr at cranking. UGH. I hate that so much. Hate on the AEM all you want but that sucker heats up super fast, like 3-4 seconds. This stupid Innovate takes like a solid 10-15 seconds if not more to heat up. Garbage. So I still need to do that asap.

-I still haven't done the idle valve test to figure out the limits. I know, yeah, fail, but I somehow can't find the thread with instructions, and totally forgot how I did it on the '00 its been so long. So if anyone has a link please post up. I will do that also asap once I figure out clear directions for doing it.

-I did adjust my CL IDLE INITIAL table to be more like yours bmx. Re-scaled the Y axis to CLT and re-did the values in table. Ended up needing to use much lower values though. Per TS my car idles at 29-30, which is weird because I was under the impression that NB's use higher numbers for the idle valve than na's. I *THINK* I am getting the hang of it. The hot restart has improved a bit. but dead cold start still sucks. I'll post another screen shot of where my settings are at tonight.

-Does anyone have a good prime pulse/crank pulse curve they can show me specifically for e85? I think that's my biggest challenge - getting a good cold start specifically on e85. on pump gas this thing would cold start like a champ
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Old 09-18-2013, 11:45 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
-I still haven't figured out where to draw direct current from the fusebox for the stupid MTX to stay on through startup so I can actually see afr at cranking.
You'd have to connect it to a battery not connected to your miata.



for the cranking pulse, I like to zero out the entire curve, then that morning at that particular CLT point drage the curve up little by little until the car starts well, then base the curve off that point (using data from this same test at different CLT temps).
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Old 09-18-2013, 11:52 AM   #10
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O rly? I was about to do that yesterday but wasn't sure if I could just do it off a source on the car. Guess not. Just the power or both power and ground?

And that 2nd part makes so much sense
Thanks
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Old 09-18-2013, 11:55 AM   #11
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i dunno. there's too much voltage drop during cranking, that no matter the source, it will be too low to even power up and meter. the MTX-L shuts off around 10.5v, I'm sure you're seeing 8-9v during cranking.
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Old 09-18-2013, 03:33 PM   #12
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Helpful thread is helpful. Thanks for the tip brain, that way of tuning cranking is logical and sounds effective.

Will have to give this a shot when I go e85. This thread is relevant, and while we are at it - what all is needed to change for the switch to e85? I know cranking, warmup, idle, and your VE table overall. Anything else I'm missing?
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Old 09-18-2013, 05:18 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireindc View Post
Helpful thread is helpful. Thanks for the tip brain, that way of tuning cranking is logical and sounds effective.

Will have to give this a shot when I go e85. This thread is relevant, and while we are at it - what all is needed to change for the switch to e85? I know cranking, warmup, idle, and your VE table overall. Anything else I'm missing?
For fueling all that *should* be required to change is req-fuel. Everything else should scale, if all your parameters are correct. Of course if your injector dead-times, for example, are off and you tuned that out with VE, then you will have to re-tune the low-load cells in the VE-table at least.
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Old 09-18-2013, 05:27 PM   #14
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My wideband stays on during cranking. It doesn't display anything useful while cranking, but the warmup timer doesn't reset once started, or if i warmed it up before, it goes straight into displaying AFRs as soon as i stop cranking.

If that's useful to you, i can double check where it's drawing power.
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Old 09-18-2013, 06:28 PM   #15
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if you can when you get a chance post up.

and yes, technically everything should scale, unfortunately e85 is not the same as gasoline when it comes to cold starts, etc. more importantly cold starts. at least that's my experience tuning my previous car and many other cars (subaru's and evo's mainly)

this combo I'm working with now really puzzles me. I got nearly everything figured out and the car drives nice, but these cold starts and hot restarts really bother me and I'm puzzled why my normal approach is not working. It starts, just takes like 5-6 times to turn over before it "catches". And on cold mornings it takes 2-3 tries of doing that before it will fire, and when it does its pretty rough for a few seconds.

I'm sure I just need to stop being lazy, hook up the wb to direct power, and then dial in my afr's at cranking like scott suggested, and dial in my idle valve initial values like bmx suggested.

*sigh*

Will get to it asap.
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Old 09-18-2013, 06:43 PM   #16
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Yeah i can check sometime in the next couple days i think. Going to have to get under the dash and trace from the controller.

It's an NGK AFX if that matters for any reason other than that people on here like to hate it. :lol:
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Old 09-18-2013, 07:10 PM   #17
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my car, just now, after sitting for 4 days. I always let the prime the pump first, so...
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Old 09-18-2013, 07:12 PM   #18
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Thanks Leo,

Yours actually starts better than mine :(

Mine will start like that when hot, but when cold its even worse

I looked at your map/settings and they are really different, I'll give em a shot just for funzies
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Old 09-18-2013, 10:16 PM   #19
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So everything is pretty much gravy when hot, but you have a bit of a hard time with cold start?

First thing I see is huge priming pulse and huge injectors. Why is your prime so high? Turn it way down, or off.

If that doesn't fix it, then start looking at cranking fuel pw at cold. Reduce the pw at the hard to start temp, attempt to start. If it starts well, allow the coolant to warm up to the next coolant temp value in the chart and repeat. If it doesn't start quickly and easily, add cranking pulse until it does.

Setting up cranking fuel is not hard, it just takes time. You generally only get one crack at it per day, it's more or less guess and check, and if you guess incorrectly you have to wait until the next day to try again. E-85 and large injectors each add difficulty to the process. However, the concept is no different than fuel table tuning -- you're best bet is to tune your car, not copy someone else's settings. Generally the settings from a different car will be just as wrong for your car as the un-tuned settings you already have.
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Old 09-18-2013, 10:25 PM   #20
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Thanks Ben, I really appreciate it.
You're right of course.
I did turn the Prime pulse way down this morning.
I also turned the crank pulse down quite a bit this morning.

So far I've only tested hot start, and its similar to before: turns over a few times (3-4-5 depending) and then fires up fine.

Cold start, however, takes like 2 or 3 tries depending on temperature, each turning over 3 or 4 or 5 times, before it will finally catch, run really rough as if on 2 or 3 cylinders (I wouldnt' be surprised if it actually did run on 2 or 3 for those few seconds) then after a few seconds it is completely normal and idles and drives fine.

Everything besides startup is excellent on the car. It runs, warms up, drives, and idles great.

So the idle valve settings and crank pulse is what I'm thinking its lacking as the final piece to the puzzle.


Here's where I'm at currently for whatever its worth:


req fuel is at 3.9 and car is seq fuel for whatever that's worth
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