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-   -   Tricks for Tuning Engine States (https://www.miataturbo.net/megasquirt-18/tricks-tuning-engine-states-99782/)

DNMakinson 04-07-2019 08:21 PM

Tricks for Tuning Engine States
 
So I thought I'd go ahead and move to 1.5.X. I would like to determine the engine state values while still on 1.4.0.

I have the MS manual as a guide.

Are there any tricks or anecdotal advice for getting / setting the values? Places where cheating low or cheating high produces best results?

Thanks,
DNM

EDIT: Apparently there is good info on the MS3-PRO manual, compliments of irodd:
(MS3Pro, fw 1.5.1, Oct 31, 2018) See Below:


"Slow acceleration threshold - This number should be set to the RPMdot range observed while slowly
accelerating in high gear. It should be high enough to distinguish RPM jitter from intentional acceleration. If
you see the slow acceleration status triggering at idle, this number needs to be raised.
• Slow deceleration threshold -EDIT: See post #23 of this thread to see why this is a bad instruction and will give too small (absolute value) a number. Like this will give something like -300, when -700 might be needed in some circumstances. To set this, cruise in a high gear, then see what RPMdot value you get by
lifting off the throttle fully and decelerating. Set this value slightly above that RPMdot value. If you see the
slow deceleration status triggering at idle, this number needs to be raised.
• Throttle closed TPS threshold - Defines the maximum throttle position for idle functions. Typical values
range from 0.5% to 1.0% depending on how noisy your TPS signal is.
• Wide open throttle threshold - TPS value above which the engine is considered to be at wide-open throttle.
Typical values range from 99.0% to 99.9%, depending on the amount of noise in the TPS signal.
• Overrun MAP threshold - Below this MAP value, the engine is considered to be decelerating in gear instead
of idling.

Here are some general pointers for tuning the engine states.
Only use the VSS on vehicles capable of engine braking. The VSS should be turned off if your vehicle needs to
idle while in motion.
The most common example would be a car with an automatic transmission set up to freewheel
on deceleration. If you have trouble with the engine stalling while the vehicle is moving, but it idles with no problem
while stopped, turn this setting off.
If closed loop idle fails to engage properly, check to be sure the TPS reading does not go above the throttle
closed TPS threshold and that neither the slow deceleration state nor the slow acceleration state are active while
idling. If any of these states are false triggering, increase the threshold values. Also make sure the MAP sensor
reading does not go below the overrun MAP threshold at idle.
If the idle valve closes or opens abruptly when the engine is not idling, you may need to reduce the slow
acceleration or slow deceleration threshold.
If overrun fuel cut fails to engage, check the throttle closed TPS threshold and MAP overrun MAP threshold to
be sure both sensor readings are low enough.
If the engine stalls if you let off the throttle and disengage the clutch at high RPM, check if the overrun fuel cut
engaged. If so, decrease the fast deceleration threshold to lock out the overrun fuel cut in these conditions."

shuiend 04-07-2019 09:11 PM

AidanJ made a few posts a good while back that has some good info.

BBro 04-07-2019 10:21 PM

Aidans post helped, the manual helped, and the removal of the fast accel/decel in the newest FW also helped a lot. I err very heavily towards setting mine to favor idle. I dont mind if I miss an overrun fuelcut oportunity once and a while but I hate it when my car doesn’t enter idle.

DNMakinson 04-08-2019 08:12 AM

@aidandj , I searched but cannot find the write-up the others have referred to. Any input?
DNM

thebigtuna 04-08-2019 08:40 AM

Megasquirt/TunerStudio "Tips and Tricks"

Its this sticky in this section, about 5th post down. I don't know if there is a newer version but I think this is what is being referenced.

irodd 04-08-2019 03:09 PM


Originally Posted by DNMakinson (Post 1529973)
So I thought I'd go ahead and move to 1.5.X. I would like to determine the engine state values while still on 1.4.0.
I have the MS manual as a guide.
Are there any tricks or anecdotal advice for getting / setting the values? Places where cheating low or cheating high produces best results?

DNMakinson
Could you please add an info from a MS manual(MS3Pro, fw 1.5.1, Oct 31, 2018) to the your first post to avoid oudated /repetitive/already in manual/etc. advices:

"Slow acceleration threshold - This number should be set to the RPMdot range observed while slowly
accelerating in high gear. It should be high enough to distinguish RPM jitter from intentional acceleration. If
you see the slow acceleration status triggering at idle, this number needs to be raised.
• Slow deceleration threshold - To set this, cruise in a high gear, then see what RPMdot value you get by
lifting off the throttle fully and decelerating. Set this value slightly above that RPMdot value. If you see the
slow deceleration status triggering at idle, this number needs to be raised.
• Throttle closed TPS threshold - Defines the maximum throttle position for idle functions. Typical values
range from 0.5% to 1.0% depending on how noisy your TPS signal is.
• Wide open throttle threshold - TPS value above which the engine is considered to be at wide-open throttle.
Typical values range from 99.0% to 99.9%, depending on the amount of noise in the TPS signal.
• Overrun MAP threshold - Below this MAP value, the engine is considered to be decelerating in gear instead
of idling.

Here are some general pointers for tuning the engine states.
Only use the VSS on vehicles capable of engine braking. The VSS should be turned off if your vehicle needs to
idle while in motion.
The most common example would be a car with an automatic transmission set up to freewheel
on deceleration. If you have trouble with the engine stalling while the vehicle is moving, but it idles with no problem
while stopped, turn this setting off.
If closed loop idle fails to engage properly, check to be sure the TPS reading does not go above the throttle
closed TPS threshold and that neither the slow deceleration state nor the slow acceleration state are active while
idling. If any of these states are false triggering, increase the threshold values. Also make sure the MAP sensor
reading does not go below the overrun MAP threshold at idle.
If the idle valve closes or opens abruptly when the engine is not idling, you may need to reduce the slow
acceleration or slow deceleration threshold.
If overrun fuel cut fails to engage, check the throttle closed TPS threshold and MAP overrun MAP threshold to
be sure both sensor readings are low enough.
If the engine stalls if you let off the throttle and disengage the clutch at high RPM, check if the overrun fuel cut
engaged. If so, decrease the fast deceleration threshold to lock out the overrun fuel cut in these conditions."

DNMakinson 04-08-2019 04:09 PM

irodd Thanks. That is a much improved write-up than the one in the general TS Lite Manual.

Ted75zcar 04-08-2019 08:11 PM

The tool tips in the beta are decent. Honestly, I don't know what all the fuss is about, I haven't really had much of an issue with engine states.

Edit: on 1.51. I will be trying the 1.5.2 beta 4 here soon when I get a chunk of time to play.

lbatalha 04-09-2019 09:44 AM

The main issue with engine states is when you dont use initial table for CL Idle, and only use Last Value.
Decelling at low rpm where RPMdot is low (so low that its in the noise for RPMdot at idle). This will trigger idle at say, 2000rpm. On the other hand, when your closed loop brings your RPM down fast, this can trigger slow decel and bring you out of CLidle.

This happens a lot when you start the car and drive with it cold, and only stop when its already warm. RPM will sit at 1500 at the first stop because it hasent engaged since you cold started, and as CLidle starts pulling RPM down, it will move fast enough to bring you out. You then have to wait for the time delay again before it enters CLidle.

Its really annoying. Before 1.5 this all worked flawlessly EVERY time.

Interested in the latest beta, they removed slow decel, what does that mean for tuning this?

Ted75zcar 04-09-2019 10:49 AM

I stopped using last value years ago on MS2. I very quickly determined that it was not suitable for my applications.

DNMakinson 04-09-2019 11:04 AM

Last Value is to get you running so you can log real numbers to put into Initial Table.

Sounds like by the time they are finished, Engine States will be all of the same parameters used in 1.4.X, only in a different place and with the One Stop Shop annunciators. AND a better example of what RPMdot values make sense.

lbatalha 04-09-2019 11:41 AM

Don't see how last value would be to "get you started". If the last time you were idling it was fine, the next time it should be very close (once slightly warmed up, my rpm always drops to 100rpm above target(. Initial table seems like extra complexity for something very simple.
Always tuned idle like this, before engine states it was OEM-like with no issues.

Anyway 1.5.2 seems to have all the fancy EGO stuff I ever wanted so I will give it a shot, if it doesnt improve engine states I might try Table mode.

Agree that at this rate they are just reverting to old behaviour...

Ted75zcar 04-09-2019 11:55 AM

You can see significant differences in the required manifold absolute pressure (load) at idle due to: cooling fans, ac, headlights, power windows, mat, clt (proxy for other), turn signals, oil temp, giant stereo, altitude ...

IAC position is dependent on several things, including required manifold pressure.

Last value should not be used IMO. My criteria for idle quality may be different than others.

DNMakinson 04-18-2019 10:04 AM

OK. So I went to 1.5.1. It was not hard to set up the Engine States. The only new parameters were the RPMDots. I took some logs before going over and settled on +300 and -300.

Seemed to work perfectly.

However, The EBC tuning was horribly off. I full duty cycle until MAP reached Target. Needless to say, lots of Overboost Protection kicking in. They made the controller WAY more sensitive than in 1.4.X.

And I found that they have not fixed 2 issues that I had hoped would be: That the lower Boost Limit during Limp Mode does not work; that the IAC Duty Cycle does not correctly "Taper" after starting according to the value set.

So, I returned to 1.4.0.

The SD card logging of P, I and D for control was a great feature, but that was the only one that meant anything to me.

lbatalha 04-18-2019 12:40 PM

I am enjoying 1.5.2 EGO features a lot, it finally works like EGO is supposed to! (it not longer resets back to 100 all time time, it just freezes and resumes as you would expect) PID algo is also different and more sensitive.
This makes it awesome as EGO is always near the optimal (last value) so it won't have to re-adjust from scratch every time you enter overrun or some other trigger that disables it.
As for response time, without touching my PID values I cannot say yet, but thats usually not an issue unless you are way out of tune.

@DNMakinson From other people that had slight EBC issues between cold and hot days (having to adjust EBC targets because EBC algo refused to go any higher in summer, so it would not reach target for instance), this version greatly improves that.

I don't have an EBC so I can't personally comment (and am not well versed in EBC tuning) but it might be relevant to you.


@Ted75zcar My idle criteria is: I don't want garbage: It has to be equal to or better than OEM. This was met by pre-1.5.0 code.
The main difference seems to be that the previous code didn't dump you out of CLidle when the RPM was dropping fast after entering it.

Your argument can easily be turned around on you, having a static table for "what works usually" means it works for the parameters it was tuned at, but every time you stop you are farther from ideal and you have to rely on the PID to bring you to target from a larger delta.
None of the parameters you mention that change IAC position have anything to do with this problem, and at worst they are opposed to the notion of having an initial table at all, IMO

If you car was idling correctly last time, why would the last value (+dashpot) not work well next time you stop?

I would even be willing to bet that a lot of OEMs use something similar to Last Value

Don't know where you both came up with the notion that "It's just used to get your car going before you tune it". It is nonsensical because you could just set the initial table to similar values as the cranking table to get it running from a base map too...

I'd be interested in how many people here are using it, actually.

BBro 04-18-2019 01:00 PM

DNM I recently went back and looked to see where my engine states should really be and I had very similar #'s however I set them +500 -800 just to be safe and make sure any stalls were unrelated. I'm going to be setting them much closer to 300 and see if I have any hiccups.

On the initial values table vs last value I'm kind of in the middle. I see both arguments and I have always used initial value by clt. FWIW with no accessories on and just driving country roads my car needs 23% duty on the IAC to idle at 900 on the ocassional stop. When I'm in stop and go Chicago traffic for 1 hour the car is heatsoaked, headlights on, interior fan on, radio on, and needs close to 30% IAC to idle at 900. I have my initial value set to 25-26 so it's in the middle and my dashpot is 2.7% but this means when I'm stuck in my city traffic scenario everytime I use clutch move forward a few feet then have to stop the idle dips below target before it catches. If I set dashpot or initial values any higher then my idles catches annoyingly high and takes time to come to target in my first scenario.

My current solution to this is moving to a MAT base initial value table because most my scenarios where I need a lot more idle valve seem to also be tied to times when MAT is high: stop and go traffic with accessories on. And when MAT is cooler: country roads ocassional stop lights, I need less.

I think ideally a blend of initial value and last value would be cool to see. Using initial value on its own can be crappy for times when things change a lot like if I'm super heatsoaked need a lot of IAC but then traffic frees up I drive a few miles and the car cools down and my next stop idles gonna be super high because my last value was from a time with a much different situation where the car needed way more IAC.

Ted75zcar 04-18-2019 01:26 PM


Originally Posted by lbatalha (Post 1531447)


@Ted75zcar My idle criteria is: I don't want garbage: It has to be equal to or better than OEM.

Simple question, what is your target idle RPM at full operating temperature?

Also, it appears as if you are attributing posts from other people to me.

lbatalha 04-18-2019 01:51 PM

My target RPM is 850, same as OEM for the NB afaik. Its always been 850 even when I had ITBs (using OEM IAC valve), I have a rotrex now. Engine is fully stock internally

Originally Posted by Ted75zcar (Post 1530251)
You can see significant differences in the required manifold absolute pressure (load) at idle due to: cooling fans, ac, headlights, power windows, mat, clt (proxy for other), turn signals, oil temp, giant stereo, altitude ...

IAC position is dependent on several things, including required manifold pressure.

Last value should not be used IMO. My criteria for idle quality may be different than others.

That's the post I was referencing about parameters.

I dont have AC, but AC and the Cooling fan have individual idle increase when they turn on so it doesnt affect idle much, if they turned on while you were cruising and came to a stop.

Altitude at least with my ECU and when I had ITBs, going from 500m ASL to 1200m ASL (I only stopped to idle at the top) did not make the car dip below 850 rpm. I live at roughly sea level most of the year.
In the case of altitude, if you had initial table it would behave worse; If your car was tuned at sea level, the initial would always be way off when at altitude every single time you enter closed loop right?

All the other transient loads like power windows, brake lights, turn signals have no bearing on CL idle. As for more constant loads, the same as altitude, if you tune your initial table when all the loads are disabled (defroster, stereo, headlights, etc..) when those are on you will constantly have RPM dips when entering closed loop. If you tune for them being enabled, then when they are disabled you will settle above your target rpm until you are pulled down by CLidle.

With last value, unless you turn all of them on at the same time, which is unlikely, you are always ready, unlikely your headlights turned off or on since last time you entered idle.

BTW I idle at 18 degrees advance, have timing based idle control as well as IAC control and full time EGO, so any dips are quickly fixed.

Am I missing some behaviour for Initial Table that I am not aware of? (Since I've never used it much)

VcrMiata 04-19-2019 06:37 PM


Originally Posted by BBro (Post 1531449)
I have my initial value set to 25-26 so it's in the middle and my dashpot is 2.7% but this means when I'm stuck in my city traffic scenario everytime I use clutch move forward a few feet then have to stop the idle dips below target before it catches. If I set dashpot or initial values any higher then my idles catches annoyingly high and takes time to come to target in my first scenario.

I quickly moved to the initial value table based on CLT to get repeatability, I found using last value introduced an unknown that I couldn't tune for. I briefly tried initial value table based on IAT but I found entry into idle was always way too high at low ambient temps, even when the engine was fully up to temp (i.e. CLT at 95C and IAT at 14C - outside temp at 0C).

I also set my dashpot to 0 as it's redundant when using the initial table, the dashpot function should simply be built into whatever value you put into the table.

If you use the clutch to move forward and idle dips below target, I would suggest you might be going lean and need to adjust your map AE. That's a guess as it gets complicated without logs - you may be dropping in and out of closed loop idle, the IAC may be closing and opening in an unorganized fashion and the fuel may or may not be lean.

freedomgli 05-08-2019 10:27 AM

I wish I could use Engine States but I cannot because I am running Alpha-N tune for my ITBs. Without a MAP sensor you cannot do Engine States. When I upgraded from 1.4.1 to 1.5.0 I had to completely disabled overrun fuel cut in order for my car to even run because without MAP there's no way to tell if you are in overrun or not. Eventually I will likely get a newer ECU to get MAP and real-time barometric correction. The last time I tried to hook up my ECU to my ITB vacuum manifold I had a leak or some other problem so I went back to the way it was with just reading atmospheric pressure in the cabin. Not sure how I would do two MAP sensors with my MS Labs MS3 Basic v2 without going to an outboard MAP and messing around with jumpers, which is not something that is well documented.

lbatalha 05-08-2019 12:18 PM


Originally Posted by freedomgli (Post 1534137)
I wish I could use Engine States but I cannot because I am running Alpha-N tune for my ITBs. Without a MAP sensor you cannot do Engine States. When I upgraded from 1.4.1 to 1.5.0 I had to completely disabled overrun fuel cut in order for my car to even run because without MAP there's no way to tell if you are in overrun or not. Eventually I will likely get a newer ECU to get MAP and real-time barometric correction. The last time I tried to hook up my ECU to my ITB vacuum manifold I had a leak or some other problem so I went back to the way it was with just reading atmospheric pressure in the cabin. Not sure how I would do two MAP sensors with my MS Labs MS3 Basic v2 without going to an outboard MAP and messing around with jumpers, which is not something that is well documented.

Can you not use ITB mode? I got it working nicely when I had ITBs.

Shouldn't your MS3Basic have dual sensors already? I don't think any version came without them.

freedomgli 05-09-2019 12:01 AM


Originally Posted by lbatalha (Post 1534145)
Can you not use ITB mode? I got it working nicely when I had ITBs.

Shouldn't your MS3Basic have dual sensors already? I don't think any version came without them.

Will eventually go to ITB Load Mode. But you cannot start there. First I must collect data driving around on Alpha-N tune to determine switch points. And right now I don’t even have my single MAP sensor hooked up to my vacuum manifold to collect the data as last time I tried it gave me issues. Only newer MS3Basic (V3?) come with two MAP sensors. Mine is circa 2014. So I’ve got more work to do yet. It’s easy to get 90% there. It’s that last 10% that’s a challenge.

DNMakinson 05-12-2019 09:40 AM

Update:
I had two idle issues on 1.5.1 and on Pre-1.5.2 Beta 4:

Sometimes, right after start, PWM Duty % would suddenly drop, instead of following AfterStart Taper.
It turned out that I was dropping out of CLI. What was happening was that, after the start flair, RPMDot would go to about -600, which was below my low deceleration RPMDot setting of -300: set according to the instructions shown in the first post. I changed to -675 and have had no issues since.

When A/C came on, I would also drop out of CLI for a moment and car would struggle until it was re-established. This was solved by adjusting the Startup/Idle, A/C parameter “Idle-Up CL loaf Allowance (%)”. I had it at 10 and had to drop it to 8. I admit that I had this issue in 1.4.X as well, but did not know the cause. I still don’t really understand that parameter, but issue is now resolved.

EDIT: Re: EBC, for 1.5.X, I have ended up with nearly all same settings from 1.4.X, save I am using 60kPa Delta to prevent Integral windup, and Integral I had to change from “60” to “7”.

Botttom line, I’m on 1.5 now.

lbatalha 05-13-2019 04:48 AM


Originally Posted by freedomgli (Post 1534235)
Will eventually go to ITB Load Mode. But you cannot start there. First I must collect data driving around on Alpha-N tune to determine switch points. And right now I don’t even have my single MAP sensor hooked up to my vacuum manifold to collect the data as last time I tried it gave me issues. Only newer MS3Basic (V3?) come with two MAP sensors. Mine is circa 2014. So I’ve got more work to do yet. It’s easy to get 90% there. It’s that last 10% that’s a challenge.

I started in MAP mode just fine, tuned it as best as possible, determined switch points and enabled ITB mode. I never touched Alpha-N.

The second MAP sensor won't be too much issue if you enable full time EGO and tune it right, but it does help with fast elevation changes.


Im loving 1.5.2 beta4. I just discovered you can have separate authority tables for EGO, one for adding fuel and one for removing, was this added now? I dont recall seeing it before.
This combined with no longer reseting EGO to 100% on overrun and such, makes it so much better :D

Ted75zcar 05-13-2019 07:38 AM

Separate EGO is new in 1.5.2 beta

DNMakinson 05-13-2019 08:31 AM


Originally Posted by Ted75zcar (Post 1534717)
Separate EGO is new in 1.5.2 beta

Do you know if they have changed the PID type yet? There was talk of moving from a Type C to a Type A or B, in order to obtain faster action.

Ted75zcar 05-13-2019 08:32 AM


Originally Posted by DNMakinson (Post 1534721)
Do you know if they have changed the PID type yet? There was talk of moving from a Type C to a Type A or B, in order to obtain faster action.

Latest beta is running a type B

DNMakinson 05-13-2019 08:35 AM

Thanks. I will look into my settings, then. I have not noticed that the action has changed drastically, save for the not going back to 100% on over-run cut.

Also, I do not see the use case for (2) EGO Authority tables. Care to elaborate on that?

Ted75zcar 05-13-2019 08:51 AM

MSExtra Forum Topic

Edit: not sure if your question is about the table part, or the separate authority part. I don't really see the table as being a big value add, the separate authority is something I requested.

lbatalha 05-13-2019 09:23 AM


Originally Posted by DNMakinson (Post 1534723)
Thanks. I will look into my settings, then. I have not noticed that the action has changed drastically, save for the not going back to 100% on over-run cut.

Also, I do not see the use case for (2) EGO Authority tables. Care to elaborate on that?

Say you want full time EGO, but are afraid that if you give it too much authority under boost, a sensor malfunction could lean out too much and kill your engine, with this you can limit the amount of negative EGO, while maintaing however much positive EGO you want.
For instance, I have 5% positive correction above 100kpa now, but only 2% negative (previously I ran 2% both ways since I calculated that to be a good safety margin in case of wideband malfunction)

Also yeah, type B PID, seems to respond much faster with no other changes (especially the short term part)

Thanks @Ted75zcar for requesting it, It's something quite simple but improves flexibility a lot.

poormxdad 05-17-2019 08:32 AM


Originally Posted by lbatalha (Post 1534731)
Say you want full time EGO, but are afraid that if you give it too much authority under boost, a sensor malfunction could lean out too much and kill your engine, with this you can limit the amount of negative EGO, while maintaing however much positive EGO you want.

Does the MS interpolate between rows and columns in the authority tables, or do just get whatever's in the box?

Thanks,

lbatalha 05-17-2019 08:42 AM


Originally Posted by poormxdad (Post 1535352)
Does the MS interpolate between rows and columns in the authority tables, or do just get whatever's in the box?

Thanks,

Yes full interpolation as far as I can tell.
My current tables look like this:

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...5febcb5544.png

Previously the negative table was the main table, but with this feature I gave it some extra pep

Skamba 05-31-2020 04:49 AM

With the information in this thread I just updated my MS3 Basic to 1.5.2 RC11. Seems to work quite well.

As I was kind of worried about doing a firmware update, I created a quick sheet with the steps to do the update based on this thread. If anyone else wants to use it, you can find it here. So far the car seems to drive well. Engine states are quite intuitive and the updated EGO seems to be quite good.

Since the update, I'm running on wastegate pressure - I still have to retune the Boost PID. Could someone share their Boost Control Settings as a starting point for me?

O R X O N 06-02-2020 12:48 PM


Originally Posted by lbatalha (Post 1534711)
Im loving 1.5.2 beta4. I just discovered you can have separate authority tables for EGO, one for adding fuel and one for removing, was this added now? I dont recall seeing it before.
This combined with no longer reseting EGO to 100% on overrun and such, makes it so much better :D

!!!! holy shit

A few weeks ago I moved from 1.4.x on the TruboKitty site to, per my last log header, "MS3 Format 0566.05 : MS3 1.5.1 release 20171006 16:30BST (c) JSM/KC ********"

An issue I did find was fixed; was when VVT hit the minimum CLT in 1.4.x it would sputter pretty violently. Just one ignition cycle was a complete wash, and it always annoyed me. I haven't seen this in 1.5.1 so far yet. It's possible this is from changes in ramping, but I don't see this reflected in "VVT Target" nor did I change any PID settings.

I do have some idle problems but they're my fault; I haven't spent the time to reconfigure everything with states just yet. When I have high load (such as AC) and go into CL idle, it stays up there pretty high, for a while. Probably have to adjust my PID and bring my gain up to ~800s.

As for EGO correction, I actually noticed it was a bit more sluggish, but again, PID retune is needed I guess. EGO correction is disabled while I iron out VVT and hand-smooth my VE table. My #1 issue right now has been solving this nightmare of a 3500 torque dip (N/A for now, ignore boosted rows).
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...36741acc6c.jpg

I planted my foot at WOT and LFB'd to hold at 3500, and scrolled from 0 to 40 and to 0 again on my VVT table while watching my AFRs. Unlike literally every single person here, I make peak torque (by a huge margin) at only ~12* advance. Which weirds me out, because that's "the absolute value of VVTuner's base table minus the camshaft range of travel."

Mystralhawk 06-03-2020 08:30 PM

Not sure if related, but I actually had an issue on 1.5.1 where when Minimum CLT was met on my VVT settings, my car would have a sudden jolt. Turns out injection timing would freak out and was running at ~376 prior to CLT being 140.

I upgraded to MegaSquirt 1.5.2 beta 7 because apparently 1.5.1 had the wrong angle when adjusting injector timing. The release notes for 1.5.2 beta 7 specifically mentions "Injector timing adjusted based on actual VVT angle was using wrong angle." Release notes: https://www.msextra.com/downloads/de...-1-5-2/beta-7/

Once I started the beta version, I didn't have a jolt when VVT CLT minimum temp was met.

O R X O N 06-11-2020 05:53 PM


Originally Posted by Mystralhawk (Post 1572864)
Not sure if related, but I actually had an issue on 1.5.1 where when Minimum CLT was met on my VVT settings, my car would have a sudden jolt. Turns out injection timing would freak out and was running at ~376 prior to CLT being 140.

I upgraded to MegaSquirt 1.5.2 beta 7 because apparently 1.5.1 had the wrong angle when adjusting injector timing. The release notes for 1.5.2 beta 7 specifically mentions "Injector timing adjusted based on actual VVT angle was using wrong angle." Release notes: https://www.msextra.com/downloads/de...-1-5-2/beta-7/

Once I started the beta version, I didn't have a jolt when VVT CLT minimum temp was met.

I noticed the jolt on 1.5.1 below, just took some time. I jumped up to 1.5.2 RC11 and it's been great so far. My massive torque dip above was my factory cats and the terrible shape they'd been in all these years.

Using DNMakison's EAE settings from a post in 2019 and EGO with something like a P:25, I:1, D:10 value works great. Ran into an issue where very low TPS (MAP in the 20s @ 2.5K-ish, but definitely not overrun) would start jerking with EGO adding/removing a few percent at a time. I think it was crossing in and out of 0% authority, but, it's low enough load that I'll just take more authority away until 35kpa or so.

O R X O N 06-17-2020 11:34 AM

All my gripes above have been essentially tuned out. But I do notice that launch control now only engages ~25% of the time.

Most of the time with clutch in, as soon as I push the gas, the car goes full rich and dies on the spot. I haven't found anything conclusive in my logs. Sensor inputs look fine; but I want to rule out my wiring work first. Just a bit of a petty coincidence it started after the firmware. Anyone see this before?

DNMakinson 10-03-2020 12:28 PM

Reviving this thread because I'm considering going back to 1.4.1. Now that I have utilized 1.5.2 Beta 4 to look at the boost PID parameters, I don't think I have a need for any the advanced features of 1.5.X. They did finally fix the Limp Mode RPM Limit switch in, I think, Beta 5; but I had already developed a work-around for my use case.

Thoughts @18psi @Reverant ?

DNM

18psi 10-03-2020 05:58 PM

I still hate engine states.

DNMakinson 10-03-2020 06:30 PM


Originally Posted by 18psi (Post 1582791)
I still hate engine states.

But are there useful items in 1.5.X that cause you to use the newer FW in spite of Engine States? Or do you tune Miatas with the newer only at the owner's request?

I can't recall anything that was fixed in 1.5 over 1.4, and I don't recall that I'm actually making use of any of the new features.

EDIT from the MSExtra Release notes says, no features that have meaning to me:

MS3 1.5 firmware
Key changes and Gotchas - from 1.4.x and earlier
=======================
1. Engine states
These must be configured for idle, overrun, idle VE, idle advance.
2. Dome control.
Initial test implementation now replaced by implementation integrated with
regular boost control. New table settings will be required.
3. Fan control.
New settings for TPS and VSS shutoff.
4. A/C idleup.
New settings for TPS, VSS and RPM shutoff.
5. Internally the handling of I/O pins has changed.
6. Nitrous progressive VSS and time based - **fuel adder handling changed**
7. Noise filter internal logic changed.

DNM

HowPrayGame 10-03-2020 06:43 PM

The only two positives I can think of are the implementation of AEMnet for using an AEM wideband over canbus, and the fix for crank to run taper not working properly in 1.5.2 R12. My car immediately jumping from cranking IAC Duty to my 850RPM IAC Duty % and sometimes dying after crank is getting pretty old.

I am considering upgrading for those two fixes from my current 1.4.0 firmware, are engine states really that bad?

DNMakinson 10-03-2020 07:04 PM

My tune is pretty much done. I think the older was simpler. The changes they keep making are bringing ES just about where things were before, but just spread out in different places.
My idle comes in and out when CLT hot when A/C is on because of how picky it is on decel settings. I can just put in the clutch and go into neutral, but why? Used to not have this issue.

The changes to EGO seem unnecessary to me, and again, complicate things. As if the learning curve is not steep enough for new people already. I

I'm noticing that EGO does not always work, and I suspect it is due to engine states seeing Accel or Decel. I don't care to chase it down.

It will be some work to switch back, but not too much. Have to add some "I" to the Boost Control, because they have made it too sensitive. But, I have all my old tunes for those few items.

Those are my thoughts.
DNM

Ted75zcar 10-03-2020 08:03 PM

The fix to the injection timing was pretty substantial for me, but you could fix it yourself and compile 1.4.

I actually like engine states, not more or less than the 1.4 treatment, but I haven't ever had any problems with it. I do remember there being something that really drove me to 1.5, and I can't for the life of me remember what it was....

SD logging is way better in 1.5, they added the pos/neg EGO authority table in 1.5 (awesome afaiac), idle VE?, did generic sensors get expanded?, egt? LTFT?

I think the only thing that would would get me to go back would be the ability to modify the code.


DNMakinson 10-03-2020 08:45 PM


Originally Posted by Ted75zcar (Post 1582800)
fix to the injection timing was pretty substantial for me, but you could fix it yourself and compile 1.4.

Explain. I’m not aware of the problem or the solution @Ted75zcar .

Ted75zcar 10-03-2020 08:57 PM


Originally Posted by DNMakinson (Post 1582802)
Explain. I’m not aware of the problem or the solution @Ted75zcar .

the ITT algorithm wasn't using the correct angle when set to be relative to CAM angle (VVT). Basically you couldn't use that feature and had to go fixed, or you got really unpredictable behavior, especially during VVT transients. It was most noticable when passing the VVT CLT threshold at idle, the car would hiccup. Plus, the ITT had to be changed whenever the VVT table was changed. EAE was a place where you really saw it.

18psi 10-04-2020 12:41 AM


Originally Posted by DNMakinson (Post 1582792)
But are there useful items in 1.5.X that cause you to use the newer FW in spite of Engine States? Or do you tune Miatas with the newer only at the owner's request?

I can't recall anything that was fixed in 1.5 over 1.4, and I don't recall that I'm actually making use of any of the new features.

EDIT from the MSExtra Release notes says, no features that have meaning to me:

MS3 1.5 firmware
Key changes and Gotchas - from 1.4.x and earlier
=======================
1. Engine states
These must be configured for idle, overrun, idle VE, idle advance.
2. Dome control.
Initial test implementation now replaced by implementation integrated with
regular boost control. New table settings will be required.
3. Fan control.
New settings for TPS and VSS shutoff.
4. A/C idleup.
New settings for TPS, VSS and RPM shutoff.
5. Internally the handling of I/O pins has changed.
6. Nitrous progressive VSS and time based - **fuel adder handling changed**
7. Noise filter internal logic changed.

DNM

Nope. I mean I deal with the silly engine states if I have to, but if someone asks me if they should upgrade, I give em a big ol NOPE

deezums 10-04-2020 02:17 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you just set the accel thresholds sky high and pretty much have everything ignore them?

At least, that's what I've been doing because of the dumb taper bug. Accel and decel fuel still work, idle works, overrun works. Most starts I won't get a crazy decel or accel threshold well above the max settable value that kicks it off.

DNMakinson 10-04-2020 08:01 AM

Deezums, pretty much I have done that. Brings me back to “What do they bring to the table?”

Ted. I don’t have VVT. People with VVT should take note, however.

18, thanks.

Looks like I have a tiny project. Still hope Reverant answers. PM from Reverant: "Hi, unless you need the faster wideband control, stick with 1.4.x. Most people can't seem to get around tuning the engine states."

DNM

irodd 10-06-2020 09:39 AM

I have switched to 1.5.2 RC12 recently:
New EGO PID algorithm requires retuning, works perfectly fine with P=25 I=9 D=3.
Closed-loop idle crank-to-run taper wrong behaviour is finally fixed.


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