Devil's own kit installed
 

So, i got my WI kit installed over the weekend. A buddy of mine fabbed up a very ballin' bracket to hold the pump. I also relocated the washer bottle to the firewall. I will snap a picture of the nozzle placement later today. I drilled and tapped the intercooler outlet.

Attachment 205503

Attachment 205504

why does ur hose there say LOL?


edit: looks good.
so u used the washer tank for it?

Haha, I've gotten comments on that before. That's the coolant reroute hose that begi sent me. Why it says "LOL" I have no idea.

Yeah, I removed the stock washer fluid pump and the bulkhead fitting went right in.

Is it not a gravity fed pump?

They are self priming up to 8 feet.

I LOLed at the LOL hose.

I do like what you wound up doing in terms of mounting the pump. I'm thinking that since I've freed up some space over there, I might move mine up from its current location in front of the right front wheel. I've always been a tad nervous about having the water lines running through harm's way down there.

Did you relocate the fuse box?

Sort of. We did away with the stock bracket that holds the washer bottle and fuse box and made a bracket to go in its place.

And now i dont feel so alone go forth and preach the gains Wes :magna:

Have you driven it yet?

So, i pulled a LOT of fuel out of my map, upped the boost to 18psi and put in 28* of timing and holy shit. This car is MUCH faster. I probably picked up 40whp at least. No sign of knock. The car is scary fast now. Roll into boost and lose traction. I cant wait to go to the 1/4 mile and bust out a mid 12's pass.

28*? What were you at before the WI?

I'm sold.

I was running around 17* before WI

Would you mind posting the timing map that you've worked so hard to perfect? I'd like to see how much more you've been able to run than mine (which I still have not dyno-tuned.)

Haha not exactly perfected. I basically typed in 28's in all the cells above 140kpa and 4000 rpm.
I will post it up later.

No shit? Well, I've clearly got a ways to go then. If I ever wind up being back home for long enough to get out to the dyno I found, I'll see just how far we can push this bitch. Still a bit worried just how far I want to go on the stock rods.

You go until they break, then rebuild it, faster, stronger. If nothing else, it will give you a new reason to play with cars.

So, this is what it looks like when someone just guesses at a spark map.

Attachment 205488

That's really impressive. I had no idea water injection would allow you to add that much timing. Just out of curiosity, how many psi were you running before the WI? I know it says "stock motor" in your sig... but, I have to ask, this really is a stock motor right? Congrats on the gains!

I was running 14psi before. it peaks at 19 and steadies out at 18. Yes. It is the stock motor. 87k miles never had the head or oil pan off. I am on a quest for 400whp on the stock motor.

which DO kit is it? and what size nozzle are you using?

I cant wait to get mine finished :vash:

It is the stage 1 universal kit. The cheapest one. I am running the 7gph nozzle. I tried the 10 and it was just too much.

awesome...now i know which one to use lol you've helped me make up my mind about getting it lol

Like i been telling you guys all along keep shit simple and it works

Huh.

Without professing to be a WI guru, I find this quite interesting. Based solely upon the calculator provided by DO, I chose to run a 3 GPH nozzle with my kit.

If we assume a maximum of 80% duty cycle on your 550cc injectors, and an actual 7 GPH on your WI system, then your water:fuel ratio is exactly 1:1 at peak load, and greater than that at lesser load. You may be running something other than straight water (like 50% meth) in which case the percentage drops somewhat, but you see where I'm going.

How did you reach the decision to run the 7 GPH nozzle?

yeah i told him a 3gph as well. Iono how he reasoned his choice but i assumed he just grabbed the biggest one he had first and stepped down etc. Hell I barely run a 7gph on both of my nozzles put together.

I am not seeing how 7gph is a 1:1 ratio. 7gph is 441cc/min. I am running 1760cc/min of fuel at 80% duty cycle. They say that the more extreme setups run a 1:4 water to fuel ratio, the less extreme run around 1:10 water to fuel ratio. I am wanting 400whp on stock motor, also, i want to run a LOT of timing, so i considered my setup to be on the extreme side.

I have 4 nozzles, 3,7,10,and 12 gph. I spoke with chance at devils own and we came to the conclusion that i would need 10-12 gph once i really start making power.

Yeah but you could probly wean abit of it off and still be good. You need to find a ballance between your capacity and your consumption. That is why i have a 2 stage system, well that and the drivability issues of a 7gph nozzle at 4 psi would be horrible. You might need a bigger snail for 400 but you will certianly be into the 300's with avengance using your setup.

Yeah, I am shooting for 350whp on this turbo. Hell, i may puke a rod a 290, we'll see.

I fail at basic math. :loser:

Haha it's all good. I thought maybe you had a 1 cylinder miata or something :giggle:

That map is CRAZY! Your CRAZY! Good luck! Got more ballz than me.

Nah, I was just thinking that maybe you were running TBI. :rolleyes:

You've inspired me to do some further research into the subject, and I am finding some evidence to support the use of fuel:water ratios as high as 4:1 for minimum EGT, and given that my "water" is actually 50% "fuel", I am seriously contemplating the use of a larger injection nozzle. Combined with the fact that I'm using a 2d progressive controller, I may be able to get away with quite a lot here.

Haha, not too crazy for a good meth setup. This is where i got my inspiration.

Attachment 205473

Ahh that looks familiar i been telling you guys not to be punks for years and Wes finally steped up i hope you are next joe and Scot needs to get on board as well.

Haha, it should. I thought Joe already was running WI?

he is but he is being a pussy about it he needs some big boy pants like we wear in KY and Indiana. :D

That's right. More Timing. More Boost. More Power!

He is, but I don't think he's pushing it as far as you guys seem to be doing. There's a "post your spark map" thread somewhere in the MS forum (that I can't seem to find now) where he posted his map. I remember shying away from "stealing" it b/c he was running WI, but I don't think it was anywhere near as aggressive as the maps you've posted. It seems like a lot of people see water/alcohol injection as a safety net rather than something to gain power. Hopefully that starts to change, I'd love to feel safe-ish pushing a little more power than I am currently :bigtu:

If its safe enough for me to run it with out an intercooler i dunno what more proof is needed. More will follow wes i hope and then all hondas shall tremble in fear of our Miataturbo.net stickers. :makeout:

Hell Yes. So, you think i can run more boost?

what is your DC on the 550's? i think you could probly lean out alil and run some more boost if you arent to strapped on DC i would try 1-2 psi at a time. I dont have a map of your turbo in front of me but just where do you run out of effeciency on that thing? What are your AIT's btw before and after? I think you need to make it to automotion to get your shit verified to. I been meaning to go back there but leary of it in the same light last time I was scheduled to go i was gonna run with andyfloyd and my motor popped the day before /cry

I am staying pretty damn close to ambient now. Within 10* anyway. I really dont know on my DC. I will have to look tomorrow. I do know that i pulled a shitload of fuel out of the map, so the DC should be good. My m-tuned fuel rail just arrived and i have all new injector seals. Once that is all installed and i have some cash available, i will be buying a BEGi FPR so that i can increase the fuel pressure to get more out of my 550's.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...48-1comp_e.jpg


On a side note, i'm going to need a new boost gauge soon. The BEGi one only goes to 20psi.

:2cents: dont bother you can have my 12-1 if you like but seriusly at your power lvl some 650's is hardly a sacrifice if you need em i predict you will run out of room by 345 or so whp give or take at 94% DC another question is what fuel pump do you have the stock 160 and even a 190 are gonna have alil trouble keeping you fed esp if you up the pressure.,
Also what map sensor do you have in the MS if it is a 2.5 bar then you can only run like 20 psi if its a 5 bar mapdaddy you are good to go. past i would say 19 psi your gonna make more hot air than hp :2cents:

Also rember stock fpr is 1-1 while boosting so you have 18 psi more FP than stock at max boost anyway.

I have a walbro 255 fuel pump and the 4 bar mapdaddy so those should be good to go. I am thinking that the WI is bringing my bsfc closer to like .55 so i should be good with these or possibly some 650's. In all reality, i will probably be happy with 345whp because even at that level, traction will be a thing of the past.

yep mroe than 300 is whp on a street miata is totally unusable for anything but but pucker moments. I think your good to go man you could definatly try some more boost but iono if you wont just be making more heat fromt he look of your map. i had my bsfc pegged around .5 with my first setup on stock fuel system at 176 whp on automotions rollers so yeak you prob have room on the 550's still. Aslo try abit more water to bring your aits below ambeint i experimented in 5% increments from 60% and came up with abotu 20% methanol being a very happy medium. Methanol has a stoich of like 18-1 i believe so you can lean that sucker into the 12's probly and still be ok. I wanna see the 1/8th mile burn out if you take it to the valley. God you make me wanna reinsure mine and take it to beach bend Ty wes. :D

Yes, I am. And I'm being a pussy about it. :giggle:

For the most part, I've been relying upon the WI as more of a safety factor than anything else. Running a 3 GPH nozzle and fairly conservative timing.

This thread however has really encouraged me to take this thing to the next level. I've been doing a lot of googling and a lot of reading, and I have decided that I need to up my water:fuel ratio and then start getting aggressive about the timing.

One SAE tech paper which I read "Water Injection Effects In A Single-Cylinder CFR Engine" confirmed my long-standing (but unsupported) theory that the principal benefit is not the cooling of the intake change in the plenum, but rather the absorption of energy by the water during the compression and combustion cycles. This paper, as well as a couple of other sources, suggests that the water injection nozzle be placed as near as practical to the inlet valve(s), to achieve optimum dispersal and to prevent the water from vaporizing prior to its ingestion into the chamber.

So now I'm thinking that instead of just running a single large injector, I may be better served placing four smaller nozzles somewhere on the intake manifold. An ideal placement would seem to be on the outboard side, in the individual runners, directed towards the ports. Trying to drill these holes will probably prove to be a challenge. I wonder if placing nozzles on the inboard side of the manifold, pointed at the entry into the runners, would produce anything resembling optimum dispersal?

Since I have a progressive controller, I may start by ordering a couple of different nozzles and visually observing their atomization performance at various pump pressures (IOW: various duty cycles). This should also provide some answers on the rather long-standing question I've has regarding the linearity of the pumps performance over the whole range of duty cycles. IOW, does 100% DC provide 2x the flow of 50% DC? Does the controller properly account for this, such that 100% of boost target produces 2x the water of 50% of boost target? Etc.


How impossible is it to remove the intake manifold with the head on the car, I wonder?

Well, just ordered a stock 1.6 manifold off of eBay (for $29.50 delivered) to experiment with. I'm thinking 4x 2GPH or 3GPH nozzles, aimed into the ports, possibly from the bottom.

It begins.

It's actually pretty easy. Shouldn't take you long at all.

Glad i could be an inspiration :giggle: Where did you find the stoich of methanol? Everything that i've read says that stoich is around 6:1
Methanol fuel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hell yes. Should be very interesting to see. If it works out for you, it may be something to consider for my built motor.

doh yeah i coulda swore it was in my Lc1 docs for calibration but still you can run closer to the Na ideal of 13-1 for non fuel wasting power hence why we can run 12.5 or so to 1 and be safe vs people who run 11-1 etc.

Wes,
That compressor map says that you are out of useful efficiency before 20psi. You could possibly increase flow by reducing restrictions and therefore cause the psi to drop but the CFMs to increase and keep the compressor working in the sweet part of the map. Can you open up the exhaust any more? Then there are IM and intercooler losses. What kind of pressure drop are you seeing across your intercooler at 18psi?

So there's quite a bit more power to be had without running out of numbers on the gauge!:) Oh, and then there's cams...

I love this stuff.

i am a pussy also because with my ais meth kit i have a 3 gph and i only run 20* timing at 15psi. i still have to tune it a bit more but i am sure that i can go a bit higher with it on. my af ratio goes all the way to 10 ish with the spray on. it kills power so i am going to add timeing and remove a bit of fuel. so far no knock. with out meth i get knock with the cheap 91 oct gas. i hate CA gas.

8-9 gph damn joe thats a hell of alot of water. Its pretty easy to pull the mani whil on the motor just make sure youb get a few new gaskets cause they dont like to be reused.

I've been doing a lot of reading on Meth today. Everything I've come across indicates that stoich is either 6.4:1 or 6.5:1.
Sources:
Alcohol for Motor Fuels
Engine & fuel engineering - Ignition timing for Methanol vs Gasoline
https://www.fordmuscle.com/forums/ga...-methanol.html
Calculating AFR for Alcohol Injection, Tuning AFR for Methanol Alcohol | R U Subaru?

FYI, a related musing: https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t35717/

Frankly, I'm bored and I need another project. If I run out of shit to do on the Miata I'm going to wind up with another car sitting in the driveway.



Yeah, that was my first thought as well.

I've come across a number of papers recently which suggest that the detonation-reducing properties of a 50/50 mixture of methanol and water continue to increase until a methanol/water to gasoline ratio of anywhere from 25-35% is achieved. With 465cc injectors and assuming max 90% DC, my max fuel is 1674cc/min. A set of 2 GPH nozzles, assuming 100% DC at rated pressure, will deliver 504 cc/min, which is 30% of max fuel, and of course with the progressive controller I have some degree of fine-tuning capability. Obviously I'd be running a bit thick at the lower RPMs, but I can probably find a happy middle-ground.


Yeah, trying to decide if the so-called heat-insulating gaskets (which also block the coolant passage) are worth anything, or just hype and cheap plastic.

hype and cheap plastic for my money. So long as the controller realy works as desired i dont see why it wouldnt be feasable. More than a 25% aprox mix spray has always bogged me down though.

I agree. AFter about 18psi on the gt2860rs, you won't see much increase. You can also look to a .86AR turbine housing and you'll make significantly more power.

Did you guys running 28* advance at peak torque/15psi actually make more power with more advance? I hit MBT in my car at 22* at 4200rpm and more advance provided no benefit.