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Need help with my 97 miata set up
i have a 97 miata and i want to turbo the motor. i just have a couple questions about doing this. I plan on taking out the motor and putting all new guts inside. One of my questions is what would be the best compression ratio to run with a gerrett T25 Turbo? Even know it will have all new gutts how much boost will my stock engine block be able to take. What kind of rods and connecting rods should i get. I'm not to farmiliar with what kind of interal name brand parts i should get and or what i should get? Could someone help me out by either a list of good quality parts that will be able to handle around 20psi? Please help me out.
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you already have a 9.0:1 compression ratio. Why no skip the internals and run 12-15psi. If at that point you want more power, think about internals.
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booost
i am going to change the internals because i want to run 20psi. but i am not sure what kind (name brand) to buy. Also what all should i replace inside if i am running that much boost
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is that all i am going to need for the internals? or should i get new valves and valve springs? what about the bottom end?
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do not run 20psi with a T25. You need to do some more reading before you sink a ton of money into this.
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Why it is capable of it. what kind of psi should i run with a t25.
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A T25 will flow enough CFM of air for about 240rwhp. Probably 360cfm or so? That probably equates to ~16psi or so with our motors.
You don't really need to replace valves or springs for running more boost, as long as you don't plan to exceed ~7500 RPM since the valves begin to float after that. |
For 20 psi (at least) see my signature what you need.
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Pay attention to the internals, and especially in rods.
The stock 9/1 pistons can handle much power, but the stock rods, doesn't. So, go with forged pistons and rods, arp studs, cometic gasket etc. And about for the turbo, it is in your opinion what you 'll use. You want power at middle rpm? Power at high? |
i want the power to be in the middle prob. start pulling hard around 3500-4000. so please give me suggestions and tell me what you think i should go with for parts since you already have done it so you know.
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running 20 psi doens't mean much, how much power are you looking to make?
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i am not really that sure what whp i want.. i just know that when i want to i can turn the turbo controller to 20psi and run the car.
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Why are you so dead set on running 20PSI? The T25 is out of it's efficiency range at this boost level and you'd just be blowing hotter, less dense air, not making more power. The stock block should be fine for anything that this turbo will throw at it (if tuned properly and supporting mods are performed). If you decide the HP level you would like to attain, you can pick a turbo which is suited towards making the power level that you desire within it's efficiency range.
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dude I am just about to go to 10psi and the car scares me sometimes...
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Matt, even a big ported T28 is at the very edge of efficiency at 20psi, a T25 will not get you there. At that point, you're into the T3/4 range. The very best advice any of us can give you is this. First, buy a book called "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell. Read it twice. Second, start reading through the posts here and in the Forced Induction forum at miata.net. Read all the posts here and there over the past month to get your feet wet about the local lingo, companies that serve the Miata community, and how to go about your project.
Also, the guys are right, a PSI goal means nothing. You need to set a horsepower goal. Just for kicks, lets say you could get 300rwhp, which is a good bet for 20psi on the 1.8. Except it's not a 1.8 anymore, it's a 2.0 w/FM's stroker kit. Don't foget about the Hydra EMS and all the peripherals to run it. What else... OH YEAH, RX7 full drivetrain, ACT Stage3, Wilwoods, Rota's, Full Suspension, Roll Bar, Installation, Tuning, etc... Engine: $4000 Full RX7 driveline swap: $2500 Clutch: $400 Brakes: $1200 Wheels/Tires: $1500 Shocks/Springs/Sways: $1000 Roll Bar/Chassis Stiffening: $1000 Installation and tuning: $3000 All these numbers are guesses and probably on the low side. I hope you've got about $15000. You could do it for cheaper by skimping here and there, but not much cheaper. Ie, you could skip new brakes, but the stock ones don't work very well above about 120mph. Bottom line, you need to do way more homework before you spend a dime. You should start by setting lower goal and working up from there. I just bought a stock DSM T25 and plan on running 8-9psi which should get me about 180rwhp. If I wanted to up the boost, my next step would be eManage Ult. and a bump to about 12psi which should take me to the 220rwhp range (and maxing out the T25) for another $500 (but then I absolutely need a new dif). If you are stingy and take your time (buy used) you can do 220rwhp with full engine management for about $2500. But you need to do your homework on what to buy. For an idea: Used Link: $1000 Used DP/Mani/T25orGreddy: $800 IC/Pipes/BOV: $400 Boost Gauge/MBC/injectors/Plugs/tools/misc/etc...: $300 Rough guesses and probably low, but I've seen it done for even less than that. Remember, even a fully loaded Miata weighs in about 700lbs less than your Civic buddies. They're gonna need about 270fwhp to beat your 220rwhp. |
through all these reply's i am now understanding more and more and that is what i wanted to do. i wanted people to give me advise because i have never messed around with turboing a non-turbo car. all the cars i have played with i just had to swap the turbo. so i am going to listen to everyone since all have you seem to know what your talking about.. i found this kit i am going to buy from http://www.importperformanceparts.net/ . i am going to get the extreme kit. Someone check it out and let me know what they think about running 12psi out of that turbo and what internals i will need to run with that kit.
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I would not buy that, $2500 for a T25 and a few goodies... If I were you I would make a list of all the parts you are going to want. Look around and buy used parts for things that are just as reliable used ex. emanage then shop for a new turbo (many go used but then you have to know if it has shaft play ect. and some people have had horror stories from buying used turbos) I think you will save a lot of money that way. If I could do it over again I would go DIY, but when I started out I didnt know anything about turbos so I bought the greddy kit. I really wish I went with a T3 but back then I didnt know what I wanted. Take some time and look around before you make a decision, thats my .02
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Originally Posted by mattsmiata
(Post 47508)
i am going to get the extreme kit. Someone check it out
let me know what they think about running 12psi out of that turbo what internals i will need to run with that kit. |
i am getting bigger fuel injecters
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great, can you idle them?
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what?
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exactly.
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Brainack, you are at the top of your game, sir! Good work!! :D
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i am not the only one doing this project. my dad and other people are helping with it. i just thought i would get some input on parts.. so i don't know everything about it and i will admit that but that is why my dad is helping with the project.
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I think you need to consider one of these kits instead of a TSI kit:
http://www.bellengineering.net/Pages...bosystems.html Call Corky Bell, designers of the system and author of "Maximum Boost" for the best way to acheieve your goals with his system. Look at the comparison between the S1, S2, S3 & S4 in regards to power output, turbo size, fuel controllers, etc. Throwing 20psi at your system is not a simple task. Believe us, if we all could we would. Yes internals will be needed after around 250rwhp (12-15psi), but it takes a lot to get to that point. But then you might need to find a larger turbo and sacrifice lots of low-end and "lag" to run larger boost levels. You'll find a lot of us are plently happy with systems between 190-250rwhp. |
Matt, STOP!!! I absolutely guarantee if you buy that kit, within a month, you'll be spending an extra $1000 dollars just to fix what you've broke or what came in the kit that's already broken or wasn't right. That kit was just discussed at length in another thread... https://www.miataturbo.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4801
DUDE, SERIOUSLY, YOU NEED TO SPEND A FEW WEEKS AT LEAST DOING RESEARCH. WE'RE CAN GIVE YOU GOOD ADVICE HERE!!!!! DON'T BUY ANYTHING YET. DO YOUR HOMEWORK. LEARN FIRST, SPEND MONEY SECOND. First, have you decided on a horsepower goal? How much money total do you have to spend? What are the current modifications to the car? List ALL of them... even the bling stuff if there is any. And PLEASE DON'T SPEND ANY MONEY YET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
i figured that i want to get around 200-250whp out of the car... i don't really know how much i want to spend i guess i will spend what ever it takes. it is stock right now but i am going to redue all the guts. any requests on the guts?
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well a stock 1.8 motor in good condition will have no problem handling 200-250 whp as long as tuning is decent. If that's all your goals are just do a stock rebuild, aftermarket internals for the miata are very expensive, you're looking at over $1000 for pistons and rods alone.
With that said what is your reason for building the motor, miata motors are pretty tough and even higher mileage examples still show great compression numbers. Ok so now we know you want 200-250 whp. since you have a 1.8 the way i see it you have 2 reasonable options. 1. build yourself a diy kit 2. look over the bell kits and pick one |
the motor has around 120000 miles and i just want to strengthen the internals just to be sure that i only have to do this once. it is eaiser to pull the motor to do the turbo so once it is out it is easy to rebuild. just going to do it all at once. I know the internals are over 1000 i want to only spend
3000-4000 prob is a good est. |
Originally Posted by mattsmiata
(Post 47636)
the motor has around 120000 miles and i just want to strengthen the internals just to be sure that i only have to do this once. it is eaiser to pull the motor to do the turbo so once it is out it is easy to rebuild. just going to do it all at once. I know the internals are over 1000 i want to only spend
3000-4000 prob is a good est. |
with a 3000-4000 budget there's no way you'll be able to build the motor and build/buy a kit that will take advantage of it.
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Matt, you don't have to strengthen the internals unless your power goals warrant it. There is an ENORMOUS difference between 200 and 250 hp in these cars. I'm headed for almost 200hp and my motor has 140,000 miles on it. I expect to go to near 200,000 miles before replacing the motor, and even then I'll just get a someones low mile donor from a wreck.
Now, 250hp is approaching the need for internals... but not at all mandatory. You can buy several used motors for the cost of one built one. You say you only want to do this once, but once may be all you need. To start, what are the compression numbers on your current motor? Again, you need to pick a more specific number for your power goal... everything you buy will depend on it. What is your horsepower goal? Is that $3k-$4k all the money you have for everything you intend to do to the car, or just for the motor alone? What about the other things in my first post. Throwing 250hp at an otherwise bone-stock Miata is a bad idea. What about tires/wheels/suspension/roll bar/chassis/exhaust/etc... MORE HOMEWORK!!! |
Also, do yourself a favor and drive/ride in a boosted Miata to get a feel for how fast it is. Running a mere 6-7 psi provide 50-60% more power than stock, and is a huge kick in the pants. Running 200-250rwhp in these cars is ridiculously quick. A stock S2000 makes about 205rwhp, and it weighs 500lbs. more than a Miata...I certainly wouldn't call it a slow car.
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no i plan on spending around 4000 in just the motor alone i already have eveything else i need for the car.
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Originally Posted by mattsmiata
(Post 47884)
no i plan on spending around 4000 in just the motor alone i already have eveything else i need for the car.
JUST GIVE US A NUMBER!!!!!!! ANY NUMBER WILL DO!!!!!!!!! JUST PICK A LEVEL OF HORSEPOWER YOU'RE LOOKING FOR AND TYPE IT!!!!!!!! Then list the "everything else" you've already got for the car. Seriously, LIST THEM! $4000 will get you a 200rwhp NA motor. (if that's all you want then no need to turbo) But you'll need another $2000 in engine management to run it, plus upgrading most of the fuel system. And why build that motor if you're not going to turbo it. How about a nice big T4 running your 20psi. You can have over 400rwhp... but nothing about the stock drivetrain will handle that much power. Transmission/DIF/Tires/Wheels/Chassis/RollBar/Suspension/Exhaust You're talking about $12k-$15k dollars. If you've already got most of it, that's great, but then just tell us what you've got. Come on man, help us help you, you've gotta answer our questions before we have enough info to answer yours. |
I really don't think $4000 will get you 200rwhp naturally-aspirated.
It might cover most of the work and parts to build out a high-compression motor with worked head/valves/cams for ~150-170rwhp...but the you still need to budget for an ECU to control it. A 200rwhp NA would be close to unstreetable...you'd probably have to live with a lopey, 1800 RPM idle. There's a reason Honda created VTEC :-) |
hey guys, truth is my buddy started this up for me a few days ago while i was away just to help me get my bearings before i start this project. thanks for the advice so far. i read through it last night and im definately open to all suggestions. im hoping to get a little over 200hp outta my miata and i figured a turbo would be an upgrade i could do that would help me get there fast. i was a little afraid of running a turbo on my engine with as many miles as it has so i was looking into changing the internals, but if you say i dont need to, that could save me some money. also, if that kit i was looking into isnt worth buying, i'll just hold off and get one of those kits from BEGi. before i spend any money though, what psi should i look into running, what should i do to get about 200hp out of her, and is there anything else i should consider doing. again, im open to all your suggestions and thanks for what youve done so far.
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do a compression test on your motor to see where you stand. for 200hp and normal sized turbo you're looking at running probably 10-15psi, so many other factors come into play so psi really doesn't mean all that much. can't really go wrong with picking a kit from begi. Though this board kind of caters to the do it yourselfers, hackers, and tweakers.
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I don't mean to rag but stop worrying about how much psi you want to run. If you want around or just over 200hp that's good, now you need to select a turbo that fits your needs and budget. After selecting a turbo then you will know how many psi you need to run to get 200hp.
The thing is boost pressure doesn't mean anything by itself, how much air the turbo is flowing is what really matters. For the same boost pressure (psi) a T3/T4 will be flowing a lot more air than a t25. To make 200hp a 1.8 miata engine has to flow a certain amount of air (cfm). I'm new to Miatas so these numbers aren't warrented but for an example 200hp on a t25 might require 18psi (way out of it's efficiency), on a t28 it might be 15psi, 13psi for a GT28, 11psi for a Super 60 T3, and 9psi for a T3/T4. Also if you're worried about turboing a high mileage engine just do a compression check first. If it turns out ok than you don't have much to worry about as long as you tune everything carefully and safely. I turboed my 175k mile KA24DE on my Nissan and it's ran fine for 10 months now (over 5k hard miles). With the right parts and tuning your 140k miata engine could put down 200whp daily for another 30k+ miles (or more who knows). Hope this helps |
Originally Posted by bripab007
(Post 47897)
I really don't think $4000 will get you 200rwhp naturally-aspirated.
A 200rwhp NA would be close to unstreetable...you'd probably have to live with a lopey, 1800 RPM idle. There's a reason Honda created VTEC :-) But now that we've got the whole story... Efini is right. If the number you've set is 200rwhp, this should be real easy. The Begi kit is a great choice in your pricerange and will get you far more than 200. If you're really stuck on psi, you should be able to see 200rwhp on a 1.8 with about 10-11psi using a T25. You need to check the compression levels in each cylinder to see whether this motor is a candidate or a rebuild is in order. ... and what about all that other stuff I've been asking about. |
well, as i said earlier my friend started this forum while i was away. i didnt see it until last night for the first time. he tried to answer these questions the best he could as if he were me... i know, it sounds crooked. but i am the true owner of the miata and i havent purchased any other parts to date, and i really dont know why he would think i did. like someone said earlier, more homework must be done, so thats all im trying to do now.
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Well, shit, yeah, things change if you can just assume a $2,000 ECU has already been procured and paid off...just the same, a 2.0L stroker kits rings out to over $6k, assembled: http://flyinmiata.com/enginebuilder/index.php?option=1
Like I said, you could maybe shoot for 150-170rwhp for ~$4k...not including ECU. User by the name of "popstoy" has probably put $4-5k into an engine and is making like ~180 crank horsepower, as I recall. |
Sorry, lots of confusion based on the fake Matt's posts.
I also assumed he'd build it himself so I was just looking at the parts cost of a full stroker kit... but moot now as the real Matt is in control. Matt, where are you located. We might know somebody or two with a car to look at or drive to get a feel of what different power levels are like. |
im just outside of pittsburgh in a small town known as beaver... yes some find the name amusing. but that sounds like a pretty good idea as far as taking a look, i dont think i'll be doing much driving at the time however (i lack a license right now) i figure i can be working on this project until then
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okay, what do you guys think about this... BEGi Series 2 turbo system with intercooler #3 and the BEGi fuel system, then i'll get Xede once i save up some more money
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used car salesman voice- "tell ya what, lets get you set up with a niiiiice TD04H and an HKS manifold"
seriously matt, try banging around at 180hp first, AND WITH A GOOD SUSPENSION AND BRAKE SET UP. and then see where you want to go from there, because assuming that in your case the car is 95% street driven, its still gonna be fast. I think if you sink tons of money into this engine and then blow it without starting small then youre just going to be giving everyone on this forum a great xmas, buying all your turbo stuff for cheap. |
Penpen is right. Matt, I've said it several times. Throwing more power at an otherwise stock Miata is like this little guy :cjerk: Throwing 200hp at an otherwise stock Miata is borderline dangerous.
Think about it with some larger numbers. A new '06 Mustang comes with 300hp out da' box. Would you just throw on a 15psi turbo to get 600hp and do NOTHING ELSE to the car? Provided you didn't fry the clutch just backing out the driveway, you'd wrap it around the first tree of the first corner you came to. DANGEROUS! 1.8's come w/about 95-100rwhp stock(1.8 guys, is that right?). More than doubling that power with an otherwise stock car is DUMB! At a minimum, you need some good rubbber. What size wheels do you have. Here's a link to all stock Miata wheels: http://www.miata.net/faq/wheel_weights.html#weight I suspect you've got some versions of the 14" 7spoke. How to tell which one: http://www.miata.net/garage/mx5wheels/index.html I think it probably snows where you live. I've got two sets of tires, 15"Konig Heliums w/ToyoProxesR's, and a set of stock semi-hollow spoke 14" w/Falken Zeix512's if it snows. I would say in addition to good rubber, you also need a set of shocks. The debate can go for hours on this. The easiest good decision is a set of used KYB AGX's from a forum. http://www.miata.net/cgi-bin/isc/cla...revaction=show You could also pick up a set of swaybars and I HIGHLY RECOMMEND A ROLL BAR. Here's a good place to look at different rollbars: http://www.good-win-racing.com/mazda...me=Roll%20Bars You could do tires/wheels/shocks/rollbar for $1000 easily sourcing used. OH YAH, NO STYLE BARS. Make sure it's an actual ROLLBAR. YOU MUST ALSO BUDGET FOR A CLUTCH. Again, much debate. For Begi power, you'll want to go w/a stage II from someone. I'm a Spec guy, but there's also ACT, RPS, and three or four others. Do homework. You can't go wrong w/a Begi turbo. Bell Engineering, ie Corky Bell is a legend in the turbocharging world. He won't steer you wrong and you can call his shop and talk to him. Mary or Stephanie will probably answer the phone, just tell them your story and they'll patch you through to Corky. Although Steph is getting pretty good at the technical stuff:bigtu: Or you could grow a pair and put a kit together yourself.:gay: There's nothing like buying parts from 20 different places to give you a VERY GOOD understanding about how the thing works. Brakes, how are they? What kind of life do you have left on the pads and rotors. You can do a new set of RPS or Hawk pads, and Goodridge lines about $250. I think stock rotors are fine for the street (again, much debate). A guy online here called Braineak has a website called rev2red.com, check with him about a deal for pads or rotors. |
Matt,
Another thing to think of when wanting to make 200whp in a miata is the rear end. If your car is not equiped with an LSD, get one. Currently my '91 has the factory open diff and @ 7psi, (intercooled Greddy kit), you have to have great control of the skinny pedal in the twisties. My advice, like most others on this board, would be research, research, research and then make sure you have the rest of the car built to support that kind of power before you make the leap. John |
i completely agree with you guys about not wanting to put a turbo of that sort on a basically stock car. ive already started pricing most of the items you listed above, sam. and the really good news is i should have all of those items collected and installed before i even try to drive the car. the boost controller i was looking into getting has two boost settings, so i dont have to run around with such high boost all the time. i dont plan on driving the car in the snow, but i do plan on getting a new set of tires. i think i have the 14" 94-97 solid 7 spoke alloys.
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thats a good start. ive had my car for 5 years or so and im just getting boosted. it took that long to save for and buy everything i thought i needed to run safely and reliably. that includes- Roll Bar, coilovers (highly reccomend tein flex) wheels, tires, LSD, ss brake lines, ebc pads, slotted drilled rotors, replacing just about anything that can wear out (steering rack, gaskets, belts etc) sway bars, good seat and harness, emanage, injectors, and TONS of time reading this forum.
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If you only do street driving, mostly in straight lines and rarely "push it" around corners, you'll never miss the limited-slip differential.
If you do upgrade to an LSD, make sure you get a 7" from a Miata or RX-7, as the LSD in the '90-'93 cars is the same 6" size as the opens, and is every bit as weak. |
if i can make 200 whp at 8 psi on my 100,004 mile 1.6 he can to he just needs atleast a t28, or 16g sized turbo so he will have the neccesary efficiency also i dont think that short of 300 whp you need anything but more attention to the motor keep good stuff in it. and you should be fine. your tranny will have problems before the motor.
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yeah, most of the racing we do around here is in a straight line anyway. okay, so clutch, shocks, coilovers, brakes, tires, sway bars, and roll bar. and you really dont think i need to do anything to the motor, not even a new gasket set, even if i do spend the extra 200 bucks and get the s3 w/ the T28?
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For 200rwhp, you should be perfectly fine on the stock motor, as long as you have properly tuned your fuel and timing curves.
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excellent
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