close up the vents on that belly pan and it lessen pressure behind the radiator.

You need a carbontrix vent, pm me.

^+1

I took some higher resolution pictures tonight of the current setup without the metal shroud covering everything to show how it all connects. I'm either going to have to go back to the stock radiator and shroud everything or get a different intercooler and push everything forward.

Hustler, do you have any good photos of ducting work? I've searched here and on Miata.net and I see build threads but little ducting work.

http://s389.photobucket.com/albums/o...bay_clearance/

http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/o...install051.jpg

Radiator, AC Condenser, Intercooler all fairly close to each other...
http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/o...install048.jpg

http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/o...install035.jpg

That radiator definitely is pushed forward with that intercooler. Talk to BEGi, maybe they can fabricate you IC pipes that won't go over the top.

http://www.cxracing.com/product/cxra...1/images/1.jpg http://www.cxracing.com/product/cxra...1/images/1.jpg

I don't have pics on me ATM...but you need to PM johnwag and ask him for advice. He works at TDR and does this shit all the time. Others on this forum have done better jobs on ducting than me.

Stephanie from BEGi suggested I do a compression test. Here are the results (two tests per cylinder)

Cylinder 1: 180, 180
Cylinder 2: 155, 154
Cylinder 3: 150, 150
Cylinder 4: 183, 182

Possibly a head gasket leak between cylinders 2 & 3? I'll be bringing the Miata to their shop later this week. I have the gear to do a leakdown test except the compressor is at my parent's place. Maybe soon...

If its worse than a headgasket I can put you in touch with a good machinist or TDR for a replacement engine.

It's been a while, however, I believe the issue was there on the highway as well, it just took longer. However, temps recently have been a little lower the last week or so.... and unfortunately I think the AC compressor is not working as it should. (So I haven't been able to test).

That said, I do recall on the way to the gap last year, the AC was definately rough on the cooling system. But I had some other issues shortly later... damn heater core hose split.....

Dave,

Small update. It's still at BEGi at the moment. They were able to fit my existing fans on there; I'm surprised they fit considering the space between the radiator and engine. They did a bit of shrouding around the radiator and will be test driving it later. They also ran a leakdown test pressurized at 80psi and got the following (Cyl 1-4) 56, 26, 24, 56. Leaks heard through the intake and exhaust.

Long time since last update. It's been at BEGi for a month now. They were able to cut the fans and install them on the Koyo. They've tried taping the fans to the radiator, installing an air scoop and cutting the intercooler height by 2-3 inches or so to get air underneath it like that photo of the black NA a page or two back; all have not worked so the air scoop was removed. I told them I was going to take it out of the shop because I wanted to try ducting it and removing the intercooler temporarily just to see if it's really an airflow issue but Corky is determined on solving this issue. I mentioned the ducting and possible hood scoop and he said those wouldn't work because it has more than enough airflow needed past the intercooler; I even told him about the several proven track cars here in Texas with ducting that hustler mentioned. :confused:

Had this car for 2 months now and it's still hasn't made a track day. Arg... :facepalm: :vash:

maybe you should just get a new headgasket/seals and stop fooling around with duct tape...

They only taped one thing and didn't spend much time on it. Is it difficult to tear down to the head gasket? I've never done it before but would be willing to at home. More importantly, could it even cause the overheating issue I'm seeing? Corky said there weren't any bubbles in the coolant system.

I would be pretty worried with compression and leakdown results like that and would be focusing my efforts on the remedy for that, and probably would solve any overheating issues especially if the coolant system has been compromised.

A headgasket gets more airlow through the radiator? :dunno:

So have they pulled that bad head yet? That leak down tells the whole story if it was just a head gasket then you would not have had leakage past intake and exhaust valves! Sounds like you should be ready play on the track again as soon as you get that head replaced or rebuilt.

You may also want to look at that tune once you see the valves :-)

Hope to you at H2R as soon as I get the new track car.

Well they didn't want to charge me an arm & leg ripping it apart so they haven't replaced it. Seems like Corky and others have said to just drive it until it grenades. If replacing the head gasket will help in the compression issues (not sure if it's the root cause but the numbers due highly suggest it) then I'll consider replacing it at home but if it's not the cause of the overheating then I won't worry about it at the moment.

So everyone is telling you to blow up the whole engine instead of just replacing the bad head? Turning the fix into a whole day job instead of an afternoon job. I am not sure I understand any of the logic here because the cost go way up if you wait verses doing it now.

One last question did BEGi do the leak down before or after then spend time and your money working on the cooling system?

The first thing they did was do a compression test and then a leak down test. Since they weren't seeing any bubbling in the coolant they figured exhaust gases were not being pushed into the coolant system via a blown head gasket. They couldn't be 100% certain since you have to take everything apart to know for sure but they said they didn't notice a loss of power enough to investigate (I thought that's what they said at least, it's been so long now).

Not one person is telling him to blow up his engine.

The engine has sub factory compression/leakdown numbers. Big deal. It runs and runs well. It makes good power. He drove it many many miles with no water loss and no oil contamination. How does that point to a head gasket? Not that it can't be a head gasket but it's pretty unlikely.

The car runs perfectly fine under a certain speed and outside air temperature. Above a certain point it begins to overheat. How does that point to the head, compression or leakdown? It might, but I'll bet beer and food on it.

You HAVE to get airflow through the stack (IC, condenser and radiator). There are many ways to do it. It just has to be done.

-seal up air leakage
-ducting
-higher airflow (through or around the) intercooler (both probably reduce IC efficiency)
-vent the hood
-V mount (properly done)
-remove condenser (when I've done this in the past the increase in radiator cooling capacity seemed to be very large)
-separate airflow paths to the IC and radiator, favoring the radiator.

Yeah, there is somethign wrong with the head or the head gasket.


He should be able to run without ducting on the street...I did and my intercooler is much larger than his. For the track though, he must have the ducting.

You've neglected to realize the countless number of TDR cars that run the same intercooler, with an AC, and run without overheating throughout the summer even with crummy ducting.

There are also lots of racecars that run stacked heat exchangers successfully...like JC Minnet, Sierra Sierra, and AMS.

Please reread the leak down numbers
 

Please reread the leak down numbers and the compression test numbers. The engine damaged! If the issue was a blown head gasket the leak down test would have pumped coolant out of the radiator but, as the OP says instead air escaped through the intake and exhaust valves as reported by BEGi.

The tests are tools for troubleshooting and should not be ignored. It is also the only valid test info we have in this situation. I would be surprised at this point if once these issues are resolved that the OP does not need to re-tune.

Please reread the leak down numbers
 

Please reread the leak down numbers and the compression test numbers. The engine damaged! If the issue was a blown head gasket the leak down test would have pumped coolant out of the radiator but, as the OP says instead air escaped through the intake and exhaust valves as reported by BEGi.

The tests are tools for troubleshooting and should not be ignored. It is also the only valid test info we have in this situation. I would be surprised at this point if once these issues are resolved that the OP does not need to re-tune.

Yes, the head in that video was leaking. Installed on a car there would be coolant loss or contamination.

There is some additional information that there are some oddities with the intercooler. I don't know for a fact if it is a TDR intercooler or not.

Yes, many cars run the same setup. There are so many other factors involved.

I recently worked on a 2001 with a coldside. Compression: 25, 0, 0, 10. Leakdown: worthless. You could hear air in the exhaust and intake. Turns out 15/16 valves were not seating - thanks to a "pro" engine builder. Most of the valves were still open at zero lift thanks to complete neglect of the shims. The car ran a little rough but was DD and still ran a 14.6@93mph in that condition. It was running in Miller Cycle mode.

That's why his numbers don't bug me. I didn't say they were good.

I have yet to see a car with a bad head/headgasket that only overheats at high speed with the A/C on and only in high outside air temps. Every bad headgasket/head that I've personally come across has had issues under a wide range of condtions - usually running was a bad enough condition.

There is something going on with the car. It will be fixed. The information doesn't point to the head/gasket causing the problem. No, it's not perfect. I get that.

I am local to the OP and will probably be doing some hands on at some point.

The intercooler is most likely a TDR knockoff. It came from a company called BRP which was out in South Carolina. From what I was told they have since closed down. The intercooler setup looks like a TDR but I can assure you from the receipts that it came from BRP. Corky opened up the intercooler and told me it looked like a bunch of straws stuck together; he could see right out the other end. I've never seen the inside of an intercooler so I don't know what to compare that to (edit: nevermind... http://www.sdsefi.com/techcooler.htm)

Here's an old post from them... http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=135691 Seems like their website address was taken over by a clothing company.

If the shop the car's currently at can't tell you what's wrong with it, get it out of there and find someone that knows what they are doing.

BRP was a supercharger company. I have one of the their setups. To the best of my knowledge they never made an intercooler. They did sell other manufacturer's products to increase their range. The FM superchargers from a couple of years ago were BRP products.

Ah cool, that's good to know, thanks.

I think its become more obvious that something is really wrong and the head needs to come off at the least. At that time, clean and replace consumables in the cooling system. Also, next time it overheats, put a laser-thermometer on the top of the radiator and see if the water temp really is that high. My GF's jeep likes to indicate 220 @ 190*.

If you want to send the head out for work there is a guy in Dallas who with a pheneomenal history of good customer service and extremely reliable FI track Miatas...luckily he's affordable too. John Day Machine gets a lot of love on all cars we see at the track around here.

Did we ever establish that with the belly pan the car still overheats?

I killed a head gasket once that caused over-heating.

Good tip with the IR thermometer. We'll get some good data when the car comes back.

The airflow path has been 95% sealed, belly pan and air scooper on.

Do you have dimensions on that intercooler or a build thread? I wanted to do an otr setup but didn't think it was possible with a/c.

Well, actually.... BRP did make an in-house IC solution to compete with the TDR at one point. It was a similar over the pipe solution. I believe it was around the time the turbo kit was out as well.

They did also re-sell TDR though, so it's possible, the receipt says BRP, but it's a TDR.

The issue with the BRP IC, I think the core was not as good as the TDR core. If you check on m.net, I believe there were several posts from Bill (who used to work at BRP at one point). IIRC it was less efficient, and had more boost loss than the TDR.

That said, I also have a BRP kit, one of the first M1 1.8 hotside kits out there....

Dave,

The TDR fits as an over the rad, with AC. You need to move brackets and bend some stuff to fit the core, but it fits.

Dave,

Well I saw it was a tdr but I don't have a grand to drop on an intercooler, was going to look for an eBay one of close/similar dimensions.

Corky called me today saying he's fixed it and if I'm able to get it to overheat then we'll melt the car down (jokingly). He moved the front swaybar towards the rear half of an inch in order to space the fans, radiator, and AC condenser apart. He uncapped the front coolant port (was capped from the M-Tuned Reroute), put a restrictor in and T-junctioned that into the hose coming off the back of the head going back to the radiator. It'll work for daily driving but I'll probably still have to duct it for the track. I'm just happy I can have it back. They've had the Miata for 6 weeks now.

good, you're on the right track. I don't know what spacing the heat exchangers does if its already ducted...but hopefully it works.

If it fucks up again, pull ths sc and run na. Track time is way more important than power. Did you ever get any slicks? I might have some for sale...call me.

Thanks fellas. Hopefully I won't have to yank the SC. No, I haven't gotten slicks yet. I first need to get a set of 15x9 6UL's to put the track tires on. Once I get it back I'll be finishing the roll bar installation, changing out all of the fluids (engine, tranny, diff, brake), and install new brake pads. I'll see if I can take it out to the track on the tires it has now to see how the heating issue is out there.

The spacing allows more air to bypass(go around - path of least resistance) the restrictive intercooler core and increase total airflow through the radiator. It's the same reason the V mount works so well, which is extreme spacing of the stack.

Its nothing like a v-mount because it reduces the efficiency of the first heat exchanger. A V-mount doesn't work "so well" because the radiator and intercooler are so far apart. Its works well because the exchangers don't share the same air, using lower ambient air tempt for both the rad and FMIC. You can stack them and segregate the airflow and get the same effect, like myself, Savington, and the local super-Miata RLTA car.

I'm not posting in this thread anymore because everyone here tried to help by suggesting ducting, and two people denied this logic every time.

I didn't mean to be a jerk about it.

Yes, I totally agree with what you are saying about ducting and sealing the airflow path. However, in some cases there is just way too much restriction in that path for things to work properly. That is what happened in this case. Sealing, ducting, scooping did not fix the problem.

You are right, separation is not the same as a V mount provded that the V mount has a divider between the IC and radiator.

In a conventional configuration, the point of the separation is to increase airflow through the radiator core, at the expense of less airflow through the IC.

Again, I totally agree that you can't have air spilling out all over the place. Sealing and ducting is crucial. It's just that sometimes there needs to be more airflow to the radiator than what can go through the IC core.

I'm invested in this only because he is a local and a good guy. I apologize for pushing the point and will get off my high and beaten horse now.

I'm not offended.

Look at all this restriction:
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-...0_101930_n.jpg

noes!!!

he should run the car NA, without the belt, and see if it overheats. The intercooler is not making this car overheat.

Stephanie said it should be ready Monday. Tests will be run! :idea:

Put duct tape over those slots; they're not helping you AT ALL

It's already been suggested, so we know. Thanks though.

Alright, I got the Miata back from BEGi last night. I wasn't able to overheat it on the drive home, but then again it was at night. More driving soon! It took 5-6 minutes this morning driving to work for the car to get up to operating temperature.

Thermostat was Removed
Restrictor plate was added to the front Coolant Port which was t-junctioned in to the re-route line
AC Condensor and Radiator Spaced a little further apart
Supercharger Mount Fixed
Supercharger Pulley Machined (had knicks in it)
Intercooler height cut down a couple of inches

http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/o.../enginebay.jpg
http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/o...i/SC_mount.jpg
http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/o...ctor_plate.jpg
http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/o..._tjunction.jpg
http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/o...gine_space.jpg
http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/o.../cut_fmic2.jpg
http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/o...i/cut_fmic.jpg

That aluminum tape is good stuff.

C

I don't quite understand how your reroute worked. it doesn't look like a standard reroute I've seen.

She sprung a big leak tonight. Was driving around, parked it to meet a friend and there was white smoke, hissing, and then coolant running from underneath. After letting it cool, topping it off with 1 gallon of water and rolling her down the hill to home I found there was a stream of coolant coming out of the inlet hose to the heater core. This car is becoming a pain in the ass. It was running great all week until this.

I will be ordering a real water temp gauge tomorrow. Any suggestions?

I haven't been able to fully enjoy my car since September 2008. I suggest you not take your good luck for granted.

I know, I've read your build thread. I am not taking it for granted. I was lucky I found this issue out just up the street from my apartment instead of it popping on the highway. And also that, currently, it's only a coolant leak and not a blown motor.

I forgot to add a smiley to the end, to identify that it wasn't a mean-spirited comment, here you go:

:)

:friday: hehe

It ended up being an easy fix. Photos attached...

[insert some whack shit here about ravyn changing the CAS O-ring because I wasn't paying attention to it being an NB.]

fooger he has a 2000, no CAS oring.

look, over there, a hippopotamus!!!
:bang:

So I've returned from SCCA Solo Nationals in my s2000. Was a lot of fun, first time. Anyway, I got the water temp gauge installed today. FINALLY! I drove around and found some interesting readings.

3:30pm. Ambient temp in mid 90's. Cruising at 80mph
A/C is Off. 200* F - 204* F
A/C is On. Within 1-2 miles it was at 220* F and still climbing. I shut the A/C off and evacuated the heat.

8:30pm. Ambient temp is low 80's. Cruising around 65-75mph
A/C is Off. 194* F - 200* F
A/C is On. Stayed at 214* F

9:00pm. Idling in a parking lot with A/C on. Temp got to 240* F and was still climbing; I shut it off then. The stock dash gauge was still sitting at the "nominal" position (just under 12 o'clock).