Adventures in PTE/TTE
06-29-2016, 03:37 PM
#883
Elite Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,531
Total Cats: 739
Awesome.
Thanks bro
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Can anyone explain to me how I can better optimize my Qualifying sessions?
I warmed up without my transponder on during my very first weekend, and ever since being forced to Qualify from the back, I have CHOSEN to go out last during qualifying. I treat it like a TT session, I leave a gap, try to heat the tires up and typically get 1 flying lap. It is working pretty well so far.
All my buddies/competition rush to grid as soon as TT or DE4 rolls out so they can be "at the front of the pack" for the warm up session. They all complain about traffic and typically just make do with their 18th spot on grid for Qualifying. They get stuck in traffic during qualifying and then get locked into a mid pack starting position.
Is TT style space/traffic management not learned/picked up on by people who don't TT?
Is "Qualifying Etiquette" not taught in Comp Schools?
Thanks bro
Related:
Can anyone explain to me how I can better optimize my Qualifying sessions?
I warmed up without my transponder on during my very first weekend, and ever since being forced to Qualify from the back, I have CHOSEN to go out last during qualifying. I treat it like a TT session, I leave a gap, try to heat the tires up and typically get 1 flying lap. It is working pretty well so far.
All my buddies/competition rush to grid as soon as TT or DE4 rolls out so they can be "at the front of the pack" for the warm up session. They all complain about traffic and typically just make do with their 18th spot on grid for Qualifying. They get stuck in traffic during qualifying and then get locked into a mid pack starting position.
Is TT style space/traffic management not learned/picked up on by people who don't TT?
Is "Qualifying Etiquette" not taught in Comp Schools?
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06-29-2016, 05:59 PM
#884
I try to go out as close to the front as possible, then let myself slip back if I feel I'll catch the guy in front. One trick is to let a gap open up on the outlap while the yellow is still waving. If some ******** behind tried to pass under the outlap FCY, block like ********.
I never count on getting more than one lap in qual. If I do, it's rare gift. Fight to get one clean one then get it done. I'll also pass anywhere and everywhere in qual. If I catch someone who is napping/ not using their mirrors, I'll dive bomb. Occasionally, you get stuck at the back behind the slowest cars. our job then is to crawl around until the fastest cars are gaining on you in the last few turns. That's usually OK as the fastest cars will often blast by on the front straight and not interfere with your lap. It's an art form though. Takes vigilance and finesses to get positioned well and then execute with the one chance you get.
I never count on getting more than one lap in qual. If I do, it's rare gift. Fight to get one clean one then get it done. I'll also pass anywhere and everywhere in qual. If I catch someone who is napping/ not using their mirrors, I'll dive bomb. Occasionally, you get stuck at the back behind the slowest cars. our job then is to crawl around until the fastest cars are gaining on you in the last few turns. That's usually OK as the fastest cars will often blast by on the front straight and not interfere with your lap. It's an art form though. Takes vigilance and finesses to get positioned well and then execute with the one chance you get.
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06-29-2016, 07:19 PM
#885
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Walnut Creek, Ca
Posts: 120
Total Cats: 82
With NASA mixed group qual there is no "art", it's just luck. Your best bet is to study those car numbers on the time sheets and past results. Know who is ok to be behind, how much slower or faster they are, etc. I can go out behind a ST3 car that CAN go 4 seconds faster but it takes 11 stabs to complete that task which is not ok to be behind.
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06-29-2016, 09:52 PM
#887
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Walnut Creek, Ca
Posts: 120
Total Cats: 82
I would consider more of a skill than an art to know how to qualify. I don't like the sound of art, but I agree with a lot of your points. The aggression needed to get your lap and not let anyone screw it up could be the difference between pole and 4th or 10th depending on the class. Track spacing is very important with these low hp cars, planning the gap to get a tow in high speed areas, pass in slow speed areas where two lines could happen, ect. Being wide not only on that out lap while making a gap, but during your lap for a sub par fast car getting by is some times needed. No friends on track. There to win.
Though I do base a lot of NASA mixed group qual sessions on luck and chance with the speed differences and skill in some cars. Some bone head can throw the whole session by not pulling off in a safe place because they left their wheels loose, ect.
I have had no problem getting a pole in every qual I have entered in PT, and have a few qual lap records in the past in other series. Going to keep that PTx record going this year.
Though I do base a lot of NASA mixed group qual sessions on luck and chance with the speed differences and skill in some cars. Some bone head can throw the whole session by not pulling off in a safe place because they left their wheels loose, ect.
I have had no problem getting a pole in every qual I have entered in PT, and have a few qual lap records in the past in other series. Going to keep that PTx record going this year.
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06-30-2016, 08:26 AM
#888
Elite Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,531
Total Cats: 739
One trick is to let a gap open up on the outlap while the yellow is still waving. ...
I never count on getting more than one lap in qual. If I do, it's rare gift. Fight to get one clean one then get it done. If I catch someone who is napping/ not using their mirrors, I'll dive bomb.
I never count on getting more than one lap in qual. If I do, it's rare gift. Fight to get one clean one then get it done. If I catch someone who is napping/ not using their mirrors, I'll dive bomb.
Track spacing is very important with these low hp cars, planning the gap to get a tow in high speed areas, pass in slow speed areas where two lines could happen, ect. Being wide not only on that out lap while making a gap, but during your lap for a sub par fast car getting by is some times needed. No friends on track. There to win.
This is probably the biggest adjustment I've learned from TT to PT(or any other w2w). I gave up a finishing position in my first race because I was "being courteous" in traffic. My mindset definitely changed after that race. I've had much better results since with applying a "no friends, I'm here to win" mentality to every car on track, not just the ones in my class.
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06-30-2016, 08:48 AM
#889
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Statesville, NC
Posts: 2,737
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My car is still soft on prep, I just had a major tire advantage.
I won TT with a 1:46.xx but was unable to come within a second of his 1:44.xx hoosier tire'd TT record this weekend.
TT traffic was a mess all weekend. I was gridded(is that a word) in front of most D, C, 3 cars, but they wouldn't leave any gap behind me on the outlap and would all pass on the front straight under the waving green and ruin every single attempt at a flying lap. My fastest laps were all off the throttle from the T6 exit to T10b. Dumb. No mustang/vette/bmw guy wants to listen to an E Miata say "leave a gap on the outlap" Bull Hooey.
Weekend tally looks pretty awesome.
Saturday:
PTE pole qualifier.
PTE win.
PTE lap record.
TTE win.
Sunday:
PTE pole qualifier.
PTE 2nd.
PTE win.
TTE win.
Set up was the previously discussed
E* +7
R7 +3
Diff +3
Xida +5
I was "encouraged" to add some cushion after my DQ last month, So I ran on a 133whp/2375 reclass. I added ~70lbs of ballast + a stock iron header, but went to a lightweight 1.6 clutch/fw and smaller brakes. Came in at 2399lbs after Saturday morning qual, over 2400lbs every other time. Probably making ~126ish through the stock header, down from the 131 through the racing beat, but no dyno, so no hard data.
I won TT with a 1:46.xx but was unable to come within a second of his 1:44.xx hoosier tire'd TT record this weekend.
TT traffic was a mess all weekend. I was gridded(is that a word) in front of most D, C, 3 cars, but they wouldn't leave any gap behind me on the outlap and would all pass on the front straight under the waving green and ruin every single attempt at a flying lap. My fastest laps were all off the throttle from the T6 exit to T10b. Dumb. No mustang/vette/bmw guy wants to listen to an E Miata say "leave a gap on the outlap" Bull Hooey.
Weekend tally looks pretty awesome.
Saturday:
PTE pole qualifier.
PTE win.
PTE lap record.
TTE win.
Sunday:
PTE pole qualifier.
PTE 2nd.
PTE win.
TTE win.
Set up was the previously discussed
E* +7
R7 +3
Diff +3
Xida +5
I was "encouraged" to add some cushion after my DQ last month, So I ran on a 133whp/2375 reclass. I added ~70lbs of ballast + a stock iron header, but went to a lightweight 1.6 clutch/fw and smaller brakes. Came in at 2399lbs after Saturday morning qual, over 2400lbs every other time. Probably making ~126ish through the stock header, down from the 131 through the racing beat, but no dyno, so no hard data.
But congrats dude! You're doing great for your first w2w season. Keeps the motivation up for me to cage my car and come out there with ya. Our cars are pretty damn identical(I don't have a baller diff though), so it would be a lot of fun.
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06-30-2016, 09:24 AM
#890
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,531
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Thanks man! I am learning a TON and having a blast.
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07-01-2016, 10:42 AM
#892
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,531
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After watching this and my full race video a few times, I'm fairly certain that the commonly accepted line through 7/8/9 is not the fast way through.
2, 7, and 10 are all increasing radius corners. If you don't have the power to actually cause on-throttle understeer, you don't need the extra exit room so it turns out faster to stay on the inside/shortest total path. I passed SO many people in 2 and 7/8 by staying inside/under them on the shortest path.
My fastest laps were also the laps where I hugged the inside the whole way through 10, often entering with a car on my outside at turn-in, further pinching me inside.
"Shortest total path" vs "out-in-out"
Is this simply a sheer lateral grip advantage or is it a "line" issue?
Thoughts from the peanut gallery?
Similar concept can be applied to Keyhole at Mid Ohio and several other corners/complexes. I've seen Emilio and Sonny talk about this idea before with other examples.
2, 7, and 10 are all increasing radius corners. If you don't have the power to actually cause on-throttle understeer, you don't need the extra exit room so it turns out faster to stay on the inside/shortest total path. I passed SO many people in 2 and 7/8 by staying inside/under them on the shortest path.
My fastest laps were also the laps where I hugged the inside the whole way through 10, often entering with a car on my outside at turn-in, further pinching me inside.
"Shortest total path" vs "out-in-out"
Is this simply a sheer lateral grip advantage or is it a "line" issue?
Thoughts from the peanut gallery?
Similar concept can be applied to Keyhole at Mid Ohio and several other corners/complexes. I've seen Emilio and Sonny talk about this idea before with other examples.
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07-01-2016, 01:12 PM
#893
When we coach the novice Supermiata drivers, we tell them to always to default to the "autocross" line, meaning the shortest path when learning a new track. On most tracks a symmetrical apex is usually fastest on every turn. Sometimes and early apex, sometimes late but most often symmetrical, which feels "late" if you were taught old school "late apex everything". The reason why is that the Miata usually doesn't accelerate nearly as hard as it decelerates. So more time is gained under braking and by carefully bleeding off as little speed as possible for highest possible min speed.
So first time I out I always go into each turn as hot as I can. If I don't run out of exit I turn in sooner. If I do run out of exit, I'll apex a tad later or work on getting more rotation. My fast laps, I usually have more slip angle on entry phase than exit. Lots of slip angle on exit in a Miata means tire scrub which doesn't work until you're down below 10lbs/hp in most cases.
So first time I out I always go into each turn as hot as I can. If I don't run out of exit I turn in sooner. If I do run out of exit, I'll apex a tad later or work on getting more rotation. My fast laps, I usually have more slip angle on entry phase than exit. Lots of slip angle on exit in a Miata means tire scrub which doesn't work until you're down below 10lbs/hp in most cases.
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07-17-2016, 09:50 PM
#894
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 923
Total Cats: 67
Dominion is apparently open for business. New NASA Mid Atlantic track that was supposed to open back in 2014, if I'm remembering correctly. It looks like the scary bits from Road Atlanta, but for an entire track.
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08-05-2016, 05:46 PM
#895
Elite Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,531
Total Cats: 739
My next event is back at Mid Ohio. The Club Course TTE record (1:43 Kohler) is within reach. If the weather is nice, maybe Chris Adams' 1:41 PTE record could fall.
Last time there I ran 1:41 on the Pro course on 4yr old SM6. The Club course is roughly 1.5 seconds longer, but I have drastically upgraded the tire situation with winnings from Gingerman.
Last time there I ran 1:41 on the Pro course on 4yr old SM6. The Club course is roughly 1.5 seconds longer, but I have drastically upgraded the tire situation with winnings from Gingerman.
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08-08-2016, 12:36 PM
#896
Newb
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Mt. Prospect, IL
Posts: 30
Total Cats: 1
My next event is back at Mid Ohio. The Club Course TTE record (1:43 Kohler) is within reach. If the weather is nice, maybe Chris Adams' 1:41 PTE record could fall.
Last time there I ran 1:41 on the Pro course on 4yr old SM6. The Club course is roughly 1.5 seconds longer, but I have drastically upgraded the tire situation with winnings from Gingerman.
Last time there I ran 1:41 on the Pro course on 4yr old SM6. The Club course is roughly 1.5 seconds longer, but I have drastically upgraded the tire situation with winnings from Gingerman.
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08-15-2016, 04:46 PM
#897
Elite Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,531
Total Cats: 739
Little dyno check up today. Back on the stock header, made 124whp/112wtq on a DJ248 just like NASA's. That puts me clearly back under my old 130/2320 that I got DQ'd on.
I have several reclasses on hand ready to go. I think I can get down to 2220 with no ballast or fuel. So I have plenty to play with.
How much cushion should I leave?
I have several reclasses on hand ready to go. I think I can get down to 2220 with no ballast or fuel. So I have plenty to play with.
How much cushion should I leave?
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08-15-2016, 06:20 PM
#898
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: OC
Posts: 75
Total Cats: -4
NASA NorCal
I try to go out as close to the front as possible, then let myself slip back if I feel I'll catch the guy in front. One trick is to let a gap open up on the outlap while the yellow is still waving. If some ******** behind tried to pass under the outlap FCY, block like ********.
I never count on getting more than one lap in qual. If I do, it's rare gift. Fight to get one clean one then get it done. I'll also pass anywhere and everywhere in qual. If I catch someone who is napping/ not using their mirrors, I'll dive bomb. Occasionally, you get stuck at the back behind the slowest cars. our job then is to crawl around until the fastest cars are gaining on you in the last few turns. That's usually OK as the fastest cars will often blast by on the front straight and not interfere with your lap. It's an art form though. Takes vigilance and finesses to get positioned well and then execute with the one chance you get.
I never count on getting more than one lap in qual. If I do, it's rare gift. Fight to get one clean one then get it done. I'll also pass anywhere and everywhere in qual. If I catch someone who is napping/ not using their mirrors, I'll dive bomb. Occasionally, you get stuck at the back behind the slowest cars. our job then is to crawl around until the fastest cars are gaining on you in the last few turns. That's usually OK as the fastest cars will often blast by on the front straight and not interfere with your lap. It's an art form though. Takes vigilance and finesses to get positioned well and then execute with the one chance you get.
With NASA mixed group qual there is no "art", it's just luck. Your best bet is to study those car numbers on the time sheets and past results. Know who is ok to be behind, how much slower or faster they are, etc. I can go out behind a ST3 car that CAN go 4 seconds faster but it takes 11 stabs to complete that task which is not ok to be behind.
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