Bigger better brake swap
10-17-2018, 11:33 PM
#1
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Bigger better brake swap
im wondering if anyone has suggestions on a bigger brake setup from another vehicle on the road that’s not terribly difficult to use. I can make brake brackets (have welder, will make ****) so that’s not a large concern and I’m also turning the knuckles to accommodate FD front wheel bearings to handle the additional heat of larger brakes and higher load from wider sticky tires that are needed because of the ecotec swap I’m about to start. I have seen some work done with FD calipers and that seems reasonably straight forward.
This is is going on a lemons car so the larger brakes are some what of a large necessity (would like the pads to last a full 16 hr race. Suggestions are welcome. No I will not use wilwood or any other after market brake kit for 2 reasons, over priced and they don’t last in Lemons or chump. Seen too many failures. OEM stuff is held to a higher standard.
This is is going on a lemons car so the larger brakes are some what of a large necessity (would like the pads to last a full 16 hr race. Suggestions are welcome. No I will not use wilwood or any other after market brake kit for 2 reasons, over priced and they don’t last in Lemons or chump. Seen too many failures. OEM stuff is held to a higher standard.
Last edited by cj9694; 10-18-2018 at 08:36 AM.
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10-18-2018, 11:33 AM
#2
Larger brakes will run cooler, not hotter. A proper Wilwood BBK will help with both bearing life and the proper pads will last you 16 hours without a problem. I am not understanding why you say they are overpriced or don't last. Do you have first hand experience with them? You can get a full 11.75" kit for $700 including rotors, lines, brackets, new fluid, and calipers. We have also been running this setup with brake ducting for a couple years now in WRL and it works great. Pads are also cheap for it as well. Only failure we have had was from user error.
If you want to stay OEM, then get a sport brake kit, run 2.5" ducting, and use Carbotech XP24 pads. That combo should last you an entire race and would bolt right up.
We have run both setups for years in the exact situation you are asking about and podium on just about every race we enter. I am not saying that to brag, but simply to help show we do have a decent amount of experience.
If you want to stay OEM, then get a sport brake kit, run 2.5" ducting, and use Carbotech XP24 pads. That combo should last you an entire race and would bolt right up.
We have run both setups for years in the exact situation you are asking about and podium on just about every race we enter. I am not saying that to brag, but simply to help show we do have a decent amount of experience.
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10-18-2018, 11:42 AM
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To be honest, no I do not have personal experience with the wildwoods at race pace. But have watched many teams have their calipers fail in e30s and others. My plan was to run sport brakes with 3" HD racing (Home Depot) dryer ducts. But recently was looking at the Rx7 front brakes and bearings because of the added stress we are going to be putting on the car and brake system by going to 225/45r15 tires and ecotec power. I found something a while back about those 4 pot rx7 calipers and wondered if anyone else has tried this.
As far as pads go I'm pretty happy with the hawk dtc family as they are lasting 2 races and have awesome brake feel.
As far as pads go I'm pretty happy with the hawk dtc family as they are lasting 2 races and have awesome brake feel.
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10-18-2018, 11:57 AM
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Honestly, I'd be surprised if you could hack something together using used calipers/hacked up brackets with new pads, rotors, and lines for much less than $700. Not to mention lost time from having to order parts that look like they will work on the internet and don't look the same on the shop floor.
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10-18-2018, 11:59 AM
#6
But when you start adding in machined parts your time and materials becomes a added expense. The cheapest swap is the sport brakes in the front and rear. I did this in the rear and my cost was $120 plus pads. However I opted for the Dynapro in the front because of the proven track record and super cheap rotors.
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10-18-2018, 12:04 PM
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You can cobble together and OEM swap for under $200, ive done it multiple times on multiple platforms. Only ordered parts once because some people actually know what they are doing.
Having said that, I think OP has everything back asswards. Oem calipers are typically mounted on slider pins which result in tapered pads, which is a large problem the wildwood type opposing piston calipers solve. That alone can reduce pad life significantly. You don't need to buy the $700 kit. Buy caliper and brake lines, and fab a bracket to fit one of the many rotor options you choose (corrado, mini cooper, 11.75" willwood blank copies from china for $35, etc). There are multiple threads on cheap BBKs using OEM parts, search.
Having said that, I think OP has everything back asswards. Oem calipers are typically mounted on slider pins which result in tapered pads, which is a large problem the wildwood type opposing piston calipers solve. That alone can reduce pad life significantly. You don't need to buy the $700 kit. Buy caliper and brake lines, and fab a bracket to fit one of the many rotor options you choose (corrado, mini cooper, 11.75" willwood blank copies from china for $35, etc). There are multiple threads on cheap BBKs using OEM parts, search.
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10-18-2018, 12:05 PM
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But when you start adding in machined parts your time and materials becomes a added expense. The cheapest swap is the sport brakes in the front and rear. I did this in the rear and my cost was $120 plus pads. However I opted for the Dynapro in the front because of the proven track record and super cheap rotors.
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10-18-2018, 12:14 PM
#9
Sounds like you're way overthinking a 175hp car. Stock stuff with good ducting and pads is fine. Sport stuff might be better. Wilwoods will be great.
RX7 bearings sounds like a nightmare and not necessary.
I think there's a dude selling a TII RX7 brake kit on Clubroadster.
RX7 bearings sounds like a nightmare and not necessary.
I think there's a dude selling a TII RX7 brake kit on Clubroadster.
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10-18-2018, 12:45 PM
#10
While there may be a small difference in the initial purchase of the brake kit, the long term costs can be significantly cheaper. Pads are around $90-100 for Wilwood and $130+ for sport brakes. Rotors blanks are about the same, but last longer. You can also only keep a single spare caliper instead of needing two for backup and they are available for about $125 each. If you are running an endurance car and you are allowed to use Wilwood, I would do it regardless of your power level. Long term costs are lower and removes so much heat from the hubs.
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10-18-2018, 01:22 PM
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As someone who endurance races a ecotec swapped Miata, I'd say you're on the right track looking into larger brakes and avoiding Wilwoods, I'd highly suggest doing the same, especially if you don't want to replace the calipers every year or so.
We had 1.8 brakes with our VVT swap and were running into pad life issues towards the end of a weekend (usually 8+8), or even at the end of a race if the track had heavy braking, weather was hot, and cautions were minimal. I don't think sport brakes would have been better due to pad selection and rotor brake pricing. This is with SM optimized (gets rid of the hardware) Cobalt pads, XR2 or 3s I think. We weren't having taper issues either.
With our 185hp Ecotec swap, I really don't think the 1.8 brakes would have been sufficient, however we never ran proper ducting to them, which I'm sure would have helped significantly. We currently have StopTech's 11" kit, again haven't fab'd decent ducting yet. Again no taper, much more confidence, and pads that last ~1.5 weekends. Only issue we've had is pad knock back.
Fabbing your own brake kit doesn't involve any welding, it involves a custom machined adapter bracket to hold the caliper at the right distance and offset for the larger rotor. I wouldn't consider much less trust a welded piece holding up to this task.
We had 1.8 brakes with our VVT swap and were running into pad life issues towards the end of a weekend (usually 8+8), or even at the end of a race if the track had heavy braking, weather was hot, and cautions were minimal. I don't think sport brakes would have been better due to pad selection and rotor brake pricing. This is with SM optimized (gets rid of the hardware) Cobalt pads, XR2 or 3s I think. We weren't having taper issues either.
With our 185hp Ecotec swap, I really don't think the 1.8 brakes would have been sufficient, however we never ran proper ducting to them, which I'm sure would have helped significantly. We currently have StopTech's 11" kit, again haven't fab'd decent ducting yet. Again no taper, much more confidence, and pads that last ~1.5 weekends. Only issue we've had is pad knock back.
Fabbing your own brake kit doesn't involve any welding, it involves a custom machined adapter bracket to hold the caliper at the right distance and offset for the larger rotor. I wouldn't consider much less trust a welded piece holding up to this task.
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10-18-2018, 11:01 PM
#16
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As someone who endurance races a ecotec swapped Miata, I'd say you're on the right track looking into larger brakes and avoiding Wilwoods, I'd highly suggest doing the same, especially if you don't want to replace the calipers every year or so.
We had 1.8 brakes with our VVT swap and were running into pad life issues towards the end of a weekend (usually 8+8), or even at the end of a race if the track had heavy braking, weather was hot, and cautions were minimal. I don't think sport brakes would have been better due to pad selection and rotor brake pricing. This is with SM optimized (gets rid of the hardware) Cobalt pads, XR2 or 3s I think. We weren't having taper issues either.
With our 185hp Ecotec swap, I really don't think the 1.8 brakes would have been sufficient, however we never ran proper ducting to them, which I'm sure would have helped significantly. We currently have StopTech's 11" kit, again haven't fab'd decent ducting yet. Again no taper, much more confidence, and pads that last ~1.5 weekends. Only issue we've had is pad knock back.
Fabbing your own brake kit doesn't involve any welding, it involves a custom machined adapter bracket to hold the caliper at the right distance and offset for the larger rotor. I wouldn't consider much less trust a welded piece holding up to this task.
We had 1.8 brakes with our VVT swap and were running into pad life issues towards the end of a weekend (usually 8+8), or even at the end of a race if the track had heavy braking, weather was hot, and cautions were minimal. I don't think sport brakes would have been better due to pad selection and rotor brake pricing. This is with SM optimized (gets rid of the hardware) Cobalt pads, XR2 or 3s I think. We weren't having taper issues either.
With our 185hp Ecotec swap, I really don't think the 1.8 brakes would have been sufficient, however we never ran proper ducting to them, which I'm sure would have helped significantly. We currently have StopTech's 11" kit, again haven't fab'd decent ducting yet. Again no taper, much more confidence, and pads that last ~1.5 weekends. Only issue we've had is pad knock back.
Fabbing your own brake kit doesn't involve any welding, it involves a custom machined adapter bracket to hold the caliper at the right distance and offset for the larger rotor. I wouldn't consider much less trust a welded piece holding up to this task.
Curly What size tires are you running and have you had bearings wear out a lot faster? I repack brand new bearings with very good quality synthetic bearing grease and have lasted about 4 races on 205/50r15 tires, urethane bushings and some mildly stiff coil overs. I have just seen a lot of videos of people’s hubs failing and cars grinding to a halt. Hence my concern and interest in modifying Miata knuckles to accept bigger Rx7 wheel bearings and stronger 5 stud hubs. Some of you might think that I’m being overly cautious and I would respond with you can never make your car too safe, there are safety items under the Lemons rules and I intend to make my crap can as safe as I can.
again, thanks Curly and I look forward to your response.
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10-19-2018, 01:39 AM
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Curly, thank you... thank you thank you thank you. You actually understood what I was asking. I obviously piled too many topics into this post. The FD rx7 calipers are 4 pot calipers (non sliding). And to all of you who think wilwood brakes are the ****, try running them for 8 hours continuous, there are several Lemons teams who have experienced caliper failure after a single 8 + 8. Also I can pick up brand new set of sport calipers and or rx7 fronts from rock auto for $200. Also I have had very little issue with my sliding calipers causing my hawk dtc 60s to wear in unevenly.
Curly What size tires are you running and have you had bearings wear out a lot faster? I repack brand new bearings with very good quality synthetic bearing grease and have lasted about 4 races on 205/50r15 tires, urethane bushings and some mildly stiff coil overs. I have just seen a lot of videos of people’s hubs failing and cars grinding to a halt. Hence my concern and interest in modifying Miata knuckles to accept bigger Rx7 wheel bearings and stronger 5 stud hubs. Some of you might think that I’m being overly cautious and I would respond with you can never make your car too safe, there are safety items under the Lemons rules and I intend to make my crap can as safe as I can.
again, thanks Curly and I look forward to your response.
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10-19-2018, 09:31 AM
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Another budget enduro data point. We run a NA in Champ Car with a BP4W swap (140whp+) on 1.8L brakes. Calipers are new and/or rebuilt every 2-3 years. New caliper pins and hardware kits (slides and springs). Greased with silicon grease before every race. 2.0" ducting from the marker lights. PFC 97's front and rear. We easily get a full weekend out of a set of pads, sometimes 1.5 (so three 7-8hr races) depending on tracks. No issues with tapering pads.
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10-24-2018, 03:42 AM
#19
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Another budget enduro data point. We run a NA in Champ Car with a BP4W swap (140whp+) on 1.8L brakes. Calipers are new and/or rebuilt every 2-3 years. New caliper pins and hardware kits (slides and springs). Greased with silicon grease before every race. 2.0" ducting from the marker lights. PFC 97's front and rear. We easily get a full weekend out of a set of pads, sometimes 1.5 (so three 7-8hr races) depending on tracks. No issues with tapering pads.
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03-05-2019, 09:33 AM
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Does anyone have any data points on running sport brakes? I committed to sport brakes all the way around but am having a hard time selecting a pad material. Was thinking ST45 front and ST43 rear as they are known to last a long time (far longer then the rotors which are basically become the consumable). A friend with a 5.0 swapped FB (retired IMSA) RX7 highly recommends them and says they have lasted for 5 Lemons races (the car frequently finishes top 5). But Again, its not a miata and its not going to have the brakes/power to weight ratio I have with a 185Hp ecotec miata (man I cannot wait to fire this bad boy up!)
First person to say carbotech gets a wrench thrown at them
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