Is this cheap because it is terrible???
 

I was talking to my autox s2000 buddy about the $400 roll bar I needed before I could track my car, he said his only cost him $200 and sent me this link.

4 Point Roll Bar - 90-98 MIATA

I'm A LOT of skeptical. But it passes inspection at the track.

Yes, it is cheap because it is terrible. I don't even think it will pass SCCA tech without diagonals. It's also a weld-in bar, and the odds of it fitting properly out of the box are nonexistent. Stop listening to your buddy about safety upgrades.

I just sometimes :facepalm:

If that's an accurate picture, then it doesn't fit very well.

--Ian

Not defending them but they do have option for diagonal.
(Its 25 dollars more, farther pressing me to question quality)

Strongly doubt its an accurate picture (the same shot for all makes and models on that site)

Why only sometimes and not always? (Especially when its me)

I'm not going to sugar coat it because some clueless kid will end up hurting himself with this pile... :facepalm:

That POS kit is made with ERW tubing.
Does ERW mean anything to you?
Yes? No?
Put the welder down and call some roll bar manufacturer that makes real roll bars, send your payment and follow the installation instructions when you get it.

No one that knows what ERW means would even think about buying that crap in the first place because roll over structures are made out of DOM.
See how when you specify that you want the kit with DOM tubing the price goes up to $400?!
Not that killer deal anymore.

I will compare it for convenience sake to a single diagonal Blackbird Fabworx roll bar, which is a 4 point roll bar that is made out of the right materials, thicknesses, legal for SCCA and NASA sanctioned events, comes with detailed instructions, powder coated for a beautiful finish and was designed by someone that actually knows what he's doing (imagine that!), all for $495.
That is $95 difference for all the important know-how, all the manufacturing processes, powder coating and instructions.
Why in the world would anyone want to buy one of those kits?!

BTW, your buddy might be skating by tech because he probably painted the bar which hides the fact that it's the wrong tubing, ERW is not legal as a material to use for roll over structure.

OP if you've having a hard time justifying buying expensive if quality parts just remember the resale value. This is a weld in bar which will be a bitch to fit in, and a bitch to take out when sell it. Very few if any people will want a bar like this and you will lose money. Where as if you get a quality Blackbird Fabworx, Boss Frog etc. they will hold their value MUCH better by the end and basically you will end up spending less long-term. Do it right, don't skimp on safety equipment.

His life is worth $95 apparently

$96.05, because freedom isn't free.

To get the correct material on the sight it adds 200 bucks (DOM). Then it's closer to 400 bucks. You'll need to add a cross brace, add a few more bucks. Sounds like you'll need a tube notcher, ones that aren't awful are 200 bucks. Without considering paint, or welding equipment you're in around 600 bucks. Or you can call up moti and have a really nice gt3 bar. your call.

I gave you a prop because you were skeptical enough to question before buying, and this thread may seem pointless, but if it stops just one person from making the mistake of buying that bar, starting this thread was worth it.

Aside from safety aspects, buying a nice bar from a fabricator like Blackbird ensures you will have a straightforward installation process that has been designed to pick up the right points on the chassis, and he will make recommendations to do things like add the proper SFI padding to the bar so it doesn't split your skull open. This is a good thing.

On the other hand, the bar fabbed out of crap material by "Bub" will probably not fit right at all and take days of blood, sweat, and cursing to install.

There is a race shop down the street called Lyfe motorsports and thats where I started my roll bar journey. I spoke with a gentleman called ron and he and his team could fab me one for about 1500. With what in mind I started counting my pennies because I knew safety wouldn't come cheap. In searching I found sever in the 400-600 range from hard dog, boss frog, and blackbird. So when my buddy told me about this one and it was "trackable", I couldn't help but investigate.

Your buddy is a moron. Tell him to stop being a moron :)

We work with lyfe. They are one of the best car builders in the country. If you want it done right, take it there. They will be on the high cost side of the scale.

1500 for a roll cage or roll bar? if the latter, it better be gold plated and come with a hand job

GT-R shop. https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...ac4bb60d15.jpg

O I see. Maybe they can sell him a test pipe for $1200 too

As far as the fitment goes i'm sure it would be way off and probably wouldn't work with a hard top. Even my quality roll bar that was designed to fit under the hard top has slight fitment issues with the clips on the hard top rubbing just a slight bit so if that happens with a quality roll bar I cant imagine fitment issues with this thing and it being weld in not just for hard top applications but fitment in general.

GUUUYYYS.....Guuuys......guys.

Its totally cool I found this one on ebay. Its shiny so I know its good.

For 1990 2005 Mazda Miata MX5 Polish Stainless Steel Stabilize Support Roll Bar | eBay

Glad the OP posted this. not because I was considering a cheap bar, but because now I understand yet another key difference -- the materials, and that DOM tubing must be pretty darned spendy.

thanks for all the info here guys. This is what makes this site the best damned site on the web.

+1
Would trust life with. Chrome is strong.

because DOM never nark'd on nobody

I don't think ERW is as atrocious as some people make it out to be. It's less uniform in wall thickness than DOM and doesn't have the same strength because it wasn't cold worked like DOM. But it can still be strong enough for safe roll bars/cages. Rarely do you ever see a ERW tube split. Normally, roll bar/cage failures occur in the HAZ or due to design shortcomings like improper backing and gusseting, improper bends, improper load paths, etc.

Because ERW wall thickness varies, where it is allowed it generally must be larger diameter and/or thicker than DOM to ensure that even in the weakest location it's at least as capable as the thinner, lighter, more consistent DOM. What's most important is the design and quality of the fabrication, bends, tube fit, weld quality, backing plates, etc. All that being said, if it was my car I'd just get a good quality DOM roll bar/cage because I generally prefer to do it once and do it right. That way I would not have to worry about whether the car will pass tech inspection no matter where its run. But if I was building a LeMons/Chump car and I was sitting on a stack of free ERW tubing and was a skilled fabricator, I'd consider ERW.

Going through the amount of processing it takes to build a proper full cage and knowingly choosing to do it with ERW to save a few bucks is plain stupid.
The lion share of the cost of a good cage is the labor, not the material.
You'll end up with a cage that is much heavier for anything close to DOM cage strength, so your race car already starts off with a weight penalty, with much of it sitting far above the ground.
Remember that the cage is the one component in a race car build that you never want to redo.

The difference in stiffness between DOM and ERW is very evident when you're working with the material, I'll try to shoot a short video to show it at some point.
I assure you that you will NOT consider ERW an option for a cage if you saw it :)

I said if I was already sitting on a pile of ERW tubing I'd consider it for a cheap race car build because let's face it, for most guys cheap racing isn't about winning it's about participating and having fun. That being said, I can easily justify the small price increase of DOM over ERW if I was buying all new material for my own not-cheap race car build.

Everything racing costs money. And everyone has a limit. I would not begrudge a LeMons/Chump car for having an otherwise well built roll cage if it was made of ERW, especially if that materials cost savings allowed a team member to purchase a HANS-type device they otherwise might not have been able to afford. Everything is a compromise and people make different choices at different times for different reasons. Not every situation is the same.

The trade-offs are well understood. No one is saying ERW is better at anything other than being less costly (usually). Sometimes lowest-cost technically acceptable > best value. And different people value different things differently. So determining best value is a judgment call.

A typical LeMons/Chump car lasts 1-3 seasons. Very few go on to serve illustrious careers winning SCCA national championships so there is no redoing going on here. It's simply making the overall car last a few seasons of cheap fun.

No need. It's already been done.
Rather than type out my own opinion, I'll just repost what someone else already said about that video that I agree with

Hope you're not taking what I posted as if I'm referring to you personally, I might be replying to your post but it's all generally speaking.

Test done on a .120" wall tube, this would have taken even less time on .095" tubing.
Once you go past the point of plastic deformation it's kind of pointless..

JMHO, if the price difference between the tubing of a roll cage is the make or break budget component of going racing, one should consider whether going racing at all is a good idea.
Different state of mind, but if I'm going to be in a heavy crash I'd like to have the best stuff around me.. this isn't Xbox that you get a redo, it's your ONE opportunity of walking away.

In the interest of preserving/improving the gene pool, we should encourage stupid people to buy style bars.

I hear what you're saying, but if you take that line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, then why don't you use CrMo instead of mild steel DOM? Why not build a DTM-style carbon safety cell around the driver that incorporates the energy absorbing seat mounts? Why race a Miata at all when other race cars are safer? Afterall, you only have ONE opportunity to survive a crash, right? The fact is motorsports is inherently dangerous and safety is relative. There is no such thing as absolute safety. You absolutely can build a "safe" Miata roll bar/cage using ERW, it's just going to be heavier than DOM or CrMo all else being equal. Everyone has a finite racing budget. The event organizers establish safety minimums. Many racers exceed the minimums in some respects but only meet them in others. Such are the decisions each racer makes when deciding how to best allocate their limited resources.

Because it's not needed. Both are tested for weld quality and uniform wall thickness. ERW is not.

DOM isn't strictly "needed" either unless the rules specifically call for it. CrMo is stronger than DOM is stronger than ERW. Both ERW and DOM are available in a variety of different quality and certifications. How good is your steel supply chain?

CrMo is more prone to HAZ problems without post-weld treatment. Therefore, it's not strictly better without greater process control.

DOM is better than ERW in every relevant way except cost. Seems like a nice happy medium.

I'm with you. Each has its pros/cons and I agree DOM is the happy middle ground for most applications in our corner of the motorsports sphere. But like I said earlier, I don't think ERW is as bad as some make it out to be. If you choose ERW you just have to work around its comparative weaknesses.

y'all going in circles now. just sayin

For someone who has maintained that DOM is the way to go, you're really going out of your way to defend ERW.

DOM is the way to go for most Miata applications and most builders. That much is obvious. But I also think it's important to provide a counterpoint to the absolutely ridiculous blanket statements made by others that derided ERW as wholly unfit for roll structure. That's simply not true at all. It can adequate for some builders in some applications depending on all the other factors that go into making a "safe" roll structure. Just like a Sparco Sprint seat may be acceptable vs. Racetech RT4009HR for some racers in some applications. As always, read the MFRB and follow sound engineering principles and do your best.

This post reads like a troll bait, but I'll answer anyway because there's a chance to learn something.Because of two reasons -
1. CrMo requires post welding heat treatment. Since it's practically impossible to heat treat an entire chassis there's no way to insure the stress in the structure is relieved which can lead to cracks.
Great material to use for smaller components like suspension arms and subframes, those can be heat treated without any issues.
2. The organizations that I run with do not allow in their rules any break in wall thickness when CrMo is used, like some other racing bodies do.
3. Nevertheless, I always look to improve upon where I can and have been doing some reading on Docol R8 lately.
I'd like to, but my budget is missing a bunch of zeros.
Oooh, got me there, now I'm starting to talk about budget in this pointless argument... however DTM tubs cost a fortune to build, a FAR cry from the ~$250-300 difference between building an ERW cage or a DOM cage.
You do realize DTM cars still use a steel cage, right? :)
It's obvious that this is very important to you, not sure why though, the difference in cost of tubing being a miniscule fraction of anyone's racing budget.
The people you describe are the ones I turn away when they come in to my shop, you do whatever makes you happy.
At the end of the day, the question in the OP was "is it cheap because it's terrible" to which the answer to is yes.

Yes, DTM use monocoque, steel cage and carbon safety cell. They're very neat cars, but yes, very $$$$$$. There are lots of CrMo roll cages: pre-fabricated bolt-in, pre-fabricated weld-in and also custom professional-level weld-in. The post-weld stress relief and heat treatment is not a huge issue but is something to be aware of. Much depends on the specifics of the metal, cage design, welder, filler material, fabricator skill, etc. Blanket statements from Carrol Smith should be taken with a grain of salt. He was a very smart man and his advice is generally good to follow but there are always exceptions to the rule. Thanks for taking the time to contribute to the discussion for the sake of learning. We're all on a journey.....

All those 4130 cages are illegal for NASA, just as all new ERW cages are illegal for both SCCA and NASA.

Are you sure about that? I understand that the prefabricated OMP and Sparco CrMo roll cages would be subject to extra scrutiny because, despite their FIA homologation, they use metric tubing that does not conform to the NASA CCR. But there is still an allowance for them to run at least temporarily. As for other 4130 roll cages, it's right there in the rules. Which is what I've said before: RTMFRB.

According to the NASA CCR 2016.8 Section 15.6.18 "Roll Cage Tubing Sizes"
Understood. I'm not suggesting you build a new car for NASA or SCCA competition using ERW. I've said all along: RTMFRB and you may use ERW where allowed if you prefer. My previous example of LeMons/Chump car and already sitting on a pile of ERW are a perfect example of where it might make sense.

Moti,
Thanks for the heads up on post fab treatment needed for CrMo. I didn't know that.
I actually built a custom rear set 4 pt weld in Cr-Mo cage for a mk1 Rabbit (with 2.0L Passat motor) years ago. Never finished the car and the new owner redid he cage, but still good to know.

So if I'm reading this correctly, NASA no longer issues new log books for ERW caged cars and there isn't a wall thickness break for running 4130 vs. DOM. There USED TO BE a thickness break for 4130 vs. EWR (of which is not allowed any more). I'm not sure you're supporting your argument?

As a Chump Car participant for the past few years, I would say most of the cars I see have been around for 3+ years. Maybe LeMons cars don't last that long, but Chump Cars do last for years (they maybe ugly, but they last).

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Or don't?

All of your posts have been trying to justify spending a dollar to save a penny WHILE NOT HAVING A VESTED INTEREST. Keep in mind, I'm assuming that you're just a ERW enthusiast and not an ERW seller/manufacturer because in that case I take back my assertion that you don't have a vested interest.

To use the MSM as an example, you're the type of poster who says "oh man, the MSM is awesome and that's a steal at $10k! It'll easily make 200 to the wheel after once you replace literally all of things that are attached to the turbo and spend $5k on it!" versus starting with an NB1/2 for $5k and buying $5k in turbo parts.

See, that's where you're wrong. None of my posts have been trying to justify using ERW over any other option. All of my posts have been defending the use of ERW in certain circumstances where warranted as a valid option among many different options. I am the only one in this thread who has raised the counterpoint against blanket, unfounded and unreasonable statements that practically equate ERW with AIDS. Get real man. I'm not the one with any vested interests here as building roll bars/cages and racing cars isn't my business, just a hobby. I have the perspective of having been around a lot of different racing for many decades and I know that there are many different ways to build a "safe" race car. Rules compliance is the responsibility of the fabricator, vehicle owner and event participant.

Now quote the second part. Here, I'll do it for you:

ERW is cheaper! It's just as strong and safe after you spend twice as much effort/time on it to make sure that it's structurally sound! I don't understand why ERW gets such a bad rap!

Like I said earlier, for someone who has ALREADY FUCKIN' ADMITTED that DOM is the superior option, you sure are spending a hell of a lot of time defending ERW. No one has denied that ERW can be used to make safe roll structures, it's just that ERW is more likely to be used in explicitly unsafe roll structures; you're taking a rounding error and turning it into a significant digit.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...6de15e6a4b.jpg

The Fifth Third Bank sponsorship sort of confuses me. That name does not really make sense.

they should just call it 53%

Apparently ERW is fine if you hook it together with this fancy duct tape instead of welding it.

How They Really Pulled Off This 'Duct Tape Roll Cage' Stunt

--Ian

If Fifth Third Bank merges with Third Fifths Bank, does the resultant company become One Bank?

More like the Two and Four Fifteenths Bank. But actually, It's the fifth third not five thirds and likewise, third fifth as opposed to three fifths. Technically you'd still have only 8/15ths of a bank. Sounds questionable. We should all invest.

5/7, would invest again.