Discuss shortened steering knuckles and why they are bad
 

http://clubroadster.net/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=57319

Wouldn't these increase the rate of steering? I've thought about doing the same with another set of knuckles, but wanted to hear what you'll have to say. You'dl also have to put rack limiters in to keep the real wheels from eating the control arms and sway bar.

Possible worries-
Poor ackerman angle
numb steering feel (like pushing the steering rack forward like BF does on the v8 swaps).

Anything else?

Rack limiters would defeat the purpose - you just run a wheel with less offset to get everything clear of the FSB/UCA.

I suspect steering feel would suffer, and I'm not sure on Ackermann but I doubt it would improve. If you're considering them (i.e. you drift and actually need more angle), steering feel isn't high on the list, and Ackermann doesn't matter at all.

I'm 99% sure I know the guy who is making them, too. I bought parts/service from the karting shop his dad owned ~5 years ago. Small world.

They would speed up the steering ratio. Those are the only ones that have impressed me. The rest had hacked welds I wouldn't trust on a tractor.

I need to stay away from CR and just leave the damn car alone.

I'm still confused as to how these don't just created 20* of toe in on each side.

if you somehow managed to move the rack with the arm so your rods maintain the same angle relative to the rest of the suspension, it'd help.

and you could probably re-engineer the angle of the knuckle's arm to maintain proper ackerman.

The knuckles can be heated up and twisted if needed.

One potential problem would be that the shorter mounting arm means that more force will be transmitted onto the balljoint/steering system. This will increase wear and amplify slop in the steering.

For example, say the stock mount is 7" from the steering axis and the new one is 6". That would mean that the force needed to turn the wheel would be ~17% more, and in turn forces transmitted from the wheel to the steering system will be 17% higher.

It is one thing we got ---- about (not maximizing the upright steering mount moment arm length) at the FSAE event this past year.

Not to mention the welding will make the material more brittle.

The question still remains, why?

Why would you want to do this? If you are drifting and you need more angle in a Miata, your doing it wrong.

If u want to be competitive drifting in a miata you are going to need to modiify the knuckles. For other purposes I imagine it would be for more responsive steering.

In the silvia world people either run offset rack spacers or moved steering rack to correct the angle of the tie rods. This is in conjunction with strengthened tie rods and extended lower control arms. In some cases people will use modified castor rods and tub the front guards to get max clearance. Obviously Miatas are different but the same principles apply.

Why? Because drifting is fun.
It might not make sense on a road course, or scca, but in drifting, steering angle mods are awesome.
You spin out less and can hold more angle at speed.

I had rack spacers on my 240sx, it made driving all around more fun. Was easier to drift, easier to park, and took less turning the wheel... To, well to turn.
Rack spacers work different, but it tightened up steering feel due to more resistance. Because of that it felt more direct.

As for changing toe, you reset to after the mods. Unless you have some crazy mods, stock tie rods should have enough thread to compensate.

Ackerman can also be changed with these types of mods. I am not an engineer so I can't really explain that aspect.

As for the welds, most are tig welded. I wouldn't trust anything like this that wasn't tig welded by a good welder.

Aftermarket tie rods arent only good for extra length, they are also stronger. You hit a ripple strip and u can bend a tie rod, modified knuckles are only going to place more stress on them.

Rack spacers dont change ur steering ratio, they allow the rack to slide further in and out giving you more max lock. So you wouldnt have more sensitive steering like you're claiming.

Yes the rack ratio would stay the same. However the lever the rack is moving, the knuckle, is shorter. So a half turn at the steering wheel stock would turn the wheel 1deg and the shorter knuckles would make the same steering wheel turn go farther, say 1.4deg. Am I wrong? Also wouldn't feedback get worse with shorter knuckles? Since the the knuckle has a shorter lever to push on the rack with little bump wouldn't be noticed as much...how do I say this.....long lever with small input VS short lever same small input. Sorta like it's hard to make small adjustments with a 2inch lever vs 4foot lever in degrees.

PS: Numbers pulled from my -- and only for point.

I was referring to rack spacers when I was talking about the ratio remaining the same. Rack ratio was a poor choice of words, my bad.

It would be harder to make small adjustments while cornering, easier to make big adjustments.

I thought you would have more feed back. Im thinking about it as a lever with the force from the wheel on one end, the pivot in the middle and the tie rod on the other end. Shortening the side with the tie rod would mean it would experience a greater force on it from the wheel. But the same change in movement from the wheel would move the tie rod (therefore rotate the steering wheel) less. To me it seems the steering wheel would experience "More force, less movement." Making it rougher, more abrupt feedback. Thats just from my way of thinking about it and someone will probably prove me wrong in the next post lol.

I had modified knuckles in my miata.

they were awesome on all accounts. 90 degree turn of the wheel was more than enough to catch the most signifigant oversteer in autoX that i did.

only problem is you tax the powersteering system and it will boil over. you NEED a cooler to use this system.

im doing modified knuckles (for drift) in a 99 when i put the car on the alignment rack ive got 2.17* toe out when im at the very bottom of my tie rod threads.

my question is this to be expected and there isnt a way around it?
or is there something im missing?

what im looking for is a way to get mad skids for weekend drift missile without eating my front tires on the way to work.

haha yes yes very funny but im looking for actual experienced feedback and am not particularly interested in rehashed internet videos.

is 2 degrees of toe-out "normal" for drift knuckles because im definitely at the end of my adjustment and the toe-out is visibly noticeable.

You'll have great steering response. Watch out for the walls....

Are you really at the end of the threads? You should be able to get it in the -.15 range

wont 2* of toe out eat my front tires though?

On a drift car that might see 5 miles before the front end splats a wall? Nah.

FYI- Clubroadster is the drifter group. This site is more of a go fast and have cats forum.

Yes it will definitely eat at them quickly. What's your front alignment specs ATM?

thats sorta what i thought that it should be possible to get (at least) close to spec

I hate cats

Double check everything is installed right, who did the knuckles? You really should be able to get it into spec no problem, something must be messed up.

mazda wants like .15 toe-in i think was the ideal, but im honestly just getting this car set up for the first time so i was going to get it in the ballpark of factory and go from there.

im 99% sure i installed it right they only fit one way and they still have the "L" and "R" from the factory part they were made outta. ill definitely double check though. the guy that makes them also makes NA modded knuckles if we got an NA vs NB part?

That would be the right way to go about that. Do you have anything else done in the front for angle?

not yet. had tie rods and rack spacers to do too, but we decided to get the knuckles figured out first once they started fighting back.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1416878778

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1416879060

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1416879060


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1416879060

http://2vga1o5mew51s6gu7x0mnk7kf.wpe...013_10/061.jpg

Can't trust those little spawns of satan. Never know what there gunna do next. One min there nice next min there clawing your eyes out.

Cracking up


Yeah, let me learn you guys some act-right. Keep the drifting talk off this forum.
its frowned on.

search on roadster drift, club roadster is nothing but useless wire tucked stanced shit boxes

Please find a perma frown then....this site is only relevant to my vvt swap and future turbo endeavors maybe some aero ideas. I will not bite my tongue as I don't care how much garbage spews from ignorant sheep that can only see one color. But thank you for your concern.

such hate from miata owners?!
i have such overwhelmingly disappointment in you.
can we not have a conversation regarding miata performance in whatever form it happens to take?
for that matter im as much a fan of touring cars as i am of GT or rally or formula or drift.
so on that note maybe you should just not open your mouth and waste both my time and your time, or better yet maybe you could contribute something productive.
we love miatas and thats why we are on this forum maybe you should remember that.

Funny. The new guy telling us how we should act. This is Miata turbo, not Miata drift. We like cars that actually go fast on a track, not slide sideways into walls. You're on the wrong forum for mad dorifto.

i love track cars too i just happen to be working on a turbo miata that the owner want to drift missile.
i was under the impression that miata owners get enough shit for their cute little car to get into pissing matches over suspension setups.

Jenkins out.

That's pretty much ALL we do.

There are a plethora of Miata forums on the net. This one just happens to be the one where the track junkies frequent. You won't find much information about what makes a good drift car here, because 99% of the members here think it's a silly form of motorsports. That, and the short wheelbase of the Miata makes for a great grip racer and a terrible drift car.

Think about it like this, if you wanted to learn more about figure skating, would you go onto a speed skating forum where they spend most of their time trying to get better lap times?

^QFT. Join RoadsterDrift. And make sure to include good pr0n in your intro thread. That's the kind of place it is.

Details.

I'm all for discussion about drifting set-ups among those who are interested in that niche. Logically, those wanting more power for this form of sport are going to end up here for the turbo knowledges.
Perhaps the thread being in the Race Prep section is the most misleading part.
But the cat thing... if you can't handle cats, you won't survive here. You can't have too many cats. Not in your threads, not in your home, not in your _____

-Ryan

I can handle cats, I just think they are stupid unless they are on a farm. Or it's a tiger, tigers and other big dangerous cats are cool. House cats are pointless. You want a good pet get a Komodo dragon. It's just like a cat but better


Back to the topic for the sake of keeping this on track....

I will argue that they don't really muddy out the steering feel, I haven't yet driven a Miata with the modified knuckles but I have driven a s2k with modified knuckles that used the stock steering rack. Didn't feel any different than what it was like before the mod other than it took less movement to turn the same amount.

We can see that.

The reason they are bad is because they aren't all the same and because of that you might end up with something funky where someone else doesn't have that...

Depending on the fixturing of someone that does offer them, you could get some that are wildly different because of warping with welding, etc.

Then there is the weldment itself that can be bad, but you should have a certified welder do these arms with proper post weld heat treating and xray testing and not some joe blow XdrifterX kid... but then your looking at real $ to ensure your safety.

Whoever "improved" Mr. Tickle's avatar and location is my new favorite person.

-Ryan

I put my own location down. The avatar wasn't me. Didn't notice it till my buddy pulled this thread up on his comp. But it most likely was mr. Perez, when you little school girls went flagging my I hate cats post.

I don't know who it was but it was not Joe Perez.

The only one i know who is making knuckles worth mentioning in this thread is Danny George. He got the fixtures from Chelsea Denofa who used to drift miatas. His are probably the best on the market and even then i question them.

Are you trying to achieve more angle or quicker steering?

I have modified knuckles from Danny on my NA Miata. Other than the knuckles being NB knuckles (Danny was out of NA knuckles), which required a change of the upper control arm/ball joint, they work well. I was able to get toe back to around zero with all tie rods screwed in all of the way. I do need to space the rack and/or try out the bump steer elimination kit for V8R, but they dramatically improved the drifting capabilities of the car.

The knuckles from Danny are top notch. Considering Danny George is a professional drifter, he has been very approachable when asked questions about how to setup a Miata to hang with all of the damn Niassns in grassroots level drifting.

BTW... I also have a 99 Miata which I picked up a couple of months ago which will be setup for track type racing and autocross.

Thanks

biggest set back is wishbones, need decent tubular wishbones for lock, then the tie rod end hits the arm with the knuckle shortened too much so you need a rack with massive throw! extended tubular wishbones is the key, gets the wheels away from everything.. that with a bigger steering ratio and a rack with huge throw you'll win at everything... around 5 to 6 deg neg front camber, softer than race spring rates but decent anti roll bars, drop knuckles @ rear to correct camber to -1 deg camber max... not yet got mine running yet but thats a setup id start with. tune the car with dampers, springs and tyre pressures. obv all the normal miata race stuff still applies..

EDIT: the above assumes you want skids, The reason why shortened steering knuckles are bad is because by giving a larger steering ratio they increase bump steer (where before you had close to zero bump steer, you now have more steering movement thus more bump steer) the other reasons why they are bad is because the welding is usually shite with little to no root penetration and the jigs used are mostly just pure guesswork. Andrew Keisler does knuckles with a larger steering ratio. (that is accurate!) - or atleast can produce them.