Finished my 1st race, now time to sort out car
 

I have a new car online this year, a 2004 MSM. Thanks to this forum, I have been able to speed up the learning curve on several items, especially with regards to engine reliability. The engine ran three days of wheel to wheel racing without any reliability issues.

Still I wasn't able to engage racing as hard/assertive as I would like.
I do have some equipment and set-up difficulties to work out in many area's before I feel that I can "race the car hard" wheel to wheel and still maintain good control.

So far, my problems are:
1) engine management:
-a little rich over all. AFR's 10.5-11 under boost; 14 at mid throttle.
-a little trouble with the transition to light boost when feathering the throttle at mid corner; it bucks/surges lightly... but enough to unsettle the tires, which causes you to take the corner slower than optimal.
-the power is slightly off after 8 or so hot laps.

I am using 450 cc injectors and a re-flashed ECU. I can send it back to torque chip for new programming if I can articulate to them what it needs. I have a boost gauge, an egt, a wideband in the car. No data logger.

2) Brakes:
-spongey and inconsistent feeling with hard braking/ no confidence.
-the car lifts + wobbles under hard braking.
I am using Hawk blues front/back, front ducts, Motul fluid and rubber (yes rubber) lines. I am using the OEM ABS with the OEM electronic proportioning. The msm uses the slightly larger "sport brake rotors/calipers".

I have never run with ABS before, but I don't like the way it feels. I just can't get a feel for when lock-up is going to occur. The result is early braking and loss of confidence in traffic.

I think that the wobble in the brake zone is the suspension stretching and toeing out.

3) Shifting: Shifting this six speed is really hard to get it right. I've got to use 2-6. It seems that I'm never in the right gear. when I try to skip a gear (6-4) in the braking zone I will occasionally get it wrong and hit 2nd! I installed the stiffer motor mounts. Fluids are regular parts store grade. I do have trouble with the new ACT clutch; it seems that the disc is thicker than OEM and this makes the pedal release point too close to the floor. Perhaps I am not fully releasing the clutch when slicking off the gears?

Thank you all for your help in getting me sorted out. Craig ITE/SPM # 11

Off the top you need-
Trackspeed Wilwood BBK with good pads
MS
3.6 gears
A good radiator (Again, order from TSE with the brakes)
A good Intercooler

That'll get you started in the right direction.... Hopefully the pro's will chime in

1. If you can use a standalone, do so. Doesn't the MSM have weird little quirks like bucks and surges on a regular basis, even in street cars?

2. Are you allowed to upgrade the brakes? Since you've already got Sport rears and a Sport master/booster, the only thing you need to change is the fronts. I would also add a prop valve even though you don't have one from the factory - the OEM proportioning doesn't kick in until you're on the ABS which is part of the reason why you are torching the front brakes.

The best Miata brakes in the world are on cars with an NB sport master/booster, Wilwood prop valve, TSE 11.75s in front, and Sport or 1.8+MTuned rears. Bleed with a Motive pressure bleeder for the best results. Theseus and Rover both have this exact combo. Rock-hard pedal, every time, without fail, no excuses.

And get the rubber lines off the car ASAP. I've seen them fail and the results are not pretty.

3. It takes practice but it is a better gearbox than the 5-speed. Stop using 2nd (it's too short to be of any use anywhere) and just shift it slow and practice. I wasn't sure about it when I switched either, but I can shift a 6-speed faster than I can shift a 5-speed now.

If you're still on the stock intercooler, I've heard they heatsoak very quickly. There are a lot of inexpensive intercooler options that will help eliminate that power loss.

I was going to suggest an Amsoil fluid swap in your transmission too. Rule out any of those funky shifts that may not be your fault.

SS lines is definitely cheap insurance, and might get rid of some of the sponginess if/when they're real hot.

What's your suspension setup? Diving around on stock springs might cause some of the "lifting" you describe under braking. It's certainly not confidence inspiring.

Disable your ABS, problem solved. I think you can just pull the fuse?

wow! thanks for your quick responses.

chpmsnsws6: Yes taller gears would help me. I'm finding several places on the track that I'm having to make a quick 5-6 upshift because I'm bumping on the limiter (I've set it to 7400).

I wonder if I could improve this by using my OEM 17" wheels and a 225-40-17 Hoosier? It would be a bit taller than the 225-45-15 nitto's that I've currently got on it.

Savington: I acknowledge the standalone as the best option. I am hoping that chiptorque can get this one right, and I should give them a chance to try before I give any complaints; I knew that there would be some R&D work. My problem is not knowing how to articulate the problem, or get them the data that they need to make the correct changes. Any ideas on a way to data log the basics? Is there something that will plug into the obdII port + add on my wideband and manifold pressure/vacuum?

Brakes. On a race car, I know that for many things there is no grey area: it's either right or it's wrong. The equipment you've suggested is the right way.

pdexta: I forgot to list that I've upgraded my intercooler. Could the power loss be caused by the ECU pulling out timing when it sees high intake man temps? If so, could I modify the ecu or modify the IAT sensor to slightly raise the threshold of timing retard?

Curly: Fluid, Yes. I will try this first. Redline has always made a great product.

Suspension: Yes! This is what I'll likely be doing next. I'm temporarily running on a set of street sprung (400/250) HD Bilsteins. I am definately hitting the stops hard on the transitions (T5-6 and T10-11 @ PIR). It doesn't ruin your day, but you need to pause to wait for the car to catch up to the tires... predictable, but not so fast!

I did try to pull my ABS fuse. It turns out that my car also has electric proportioning which is part of the ABS system. It didn't work out so well.

For clarification: My "work in progress" is a 2004 MSM. Stock internals. Upgraded intake/intercooler. BEIG Garrett 2860/cast manifold/inconel/sg downpipe. BEGI ecu reflash ("conservative tune, 7400 soft cut, 7500 hard cut)/Denso 450cc injectors/ boost level 10-11#/ 100 octane low lead. Rx7 Oil cooler. AWR motor mounts. ACT lightened flywheel/ACT PP/ ACT organic disc sprung hub. Suspension is a worn street set-up: Eibach front/rear bars. Bilstein HD/coilover bodies/400#f/250#r. -2.2 front/-2.5 rear (maxed)/0 toe f/ -1/16r. Nitto 225-45-15 set to 40# hot. Hawk Blue pads, Motul fluid, Trackspeed front ducts.

Everything else is OEM. Q is: what to tackle next/first?

No god dammit!

AMSOIL

Don't change your wheels and tires, unless you have some heavy 15s. You have great tire selection for cheap, 17s will definitely hurt that, and they'll be a heavier setup. That's not how you should change gearing.

Keep the "greats", think about the "goods" and change the "boos".

Thank you.

True in my sister's car.

I run this set up and it the stuff dreams are made of. It doesn't matter which track, whcih corner, no matter what, the pad feels exactly the same every time. The brakes are so good that the only time I've ever felt a change in the pedal was when I took the pad down to the backing-plate. The sport brakes the threadstarter is on are awful to a degree I cannot put into words. I should also note that at 250whp I went from replacing:
Sport brakes
1-1.5 days on a set of pads, 4 days on rotors
Corrado set-up
pads every 3 days and rotors every 3 days
TSE BBK
pads lasting ~12 days and rotors going at least 14-days since I'm still on the first set.

This is a personal safety concern.

I now prefer the 6-speed significantly too. I drive a 5-speed daily, 6-in my track car, and a 6 in my daily soon.

949 Xida's for suspension would be my vote.

Do you know what your oil temps are? From what I've seen of others tracking MSM's they tend to run high. Might consider an oil cooler. Are you running a quality synthetic? I like Mobil1, several here run Rotella T6, others will chime in with their recommendations.

Good luck fixing the stock ECU, it is ------- retarded. Tuning via UPS sounds even stupider. Buy a MS2 from Reverant instead. Probably cost about what you paid for Chip Torque to solder something into your ECU. Didn't think they were flashing the MSM yet, only n/a NBs?

I've had the same issue on track with the stock ECU and never figured it out. I now blame VTCS. Easy enough to test on your next track day.

I've had the same issue on track with the stock ECU and never figured it out. I now blame VTCS. Easy enough to test on your next track day.[/QUOTE]

Is that the tumbler system? I am getting a tumbler code... 2004 I think. Can I just disconnect or disable them in the closed position?

Thank you for your suggestion.

Not many people complain about the hawks being squishy, I compare them more to pushing on a block of wood duct taped to the fire wall and the car slows down somehow. I would certainly bleed the brakes and switch to a better fluid, ATE super blue or Moutol 600. And you say it lifts up, only the back lifts up right? you need Grippier pads in the back, normally I would say shittier pads in the front but you track the car so you need good pads all around.

The squishy pedal is from radial slop in the caliper, not the pad.

yes
unplug it

The stock shifter is pretty good, but I did find that the Miataroadster shifter helped some with feel. I got the longer one and it put the shifter handle at a more natural location for me

I'm no expert, but I think you run way too much tire pressure. Every Miata + NT-01 owner said somewhere around 31-34psi hot.

gt, what cold pressures are producing 40psi hot?

edit: keep in mind there's no magical pressure to run. AFAIK, you need to read the tire wear, temps, etc, and adjust accordingly.

I agree but 31 psi has been great in every Miata on 225s that I've seen.

Yeah, that's more or less where I always am, but a 9psi jump sounds like a lot between cold and hot, so I'm guessing he's a few psi higher.

400/250 springs are WAY too soft for a pig like a MSM. You are firmly on the bumpstops in every corner with no suspension travel left. Hell, my 550/350 setup is probably too soft for me and my car is likely a lot lighter than yours.

All your other money is probably wasted if you don't get Xidas. I hear they even made Hustler fast. Can I get a witness?

Wow, so many MSM topics my head is spinning... or due to beers. :facepalm:

The reflash is a Chiptorque program retailed by BEGi in the US. They socket a chip to the OEM board and 'engineer' the maps based on what you have bolted on. I don't think it is up to real race application. We have found there are EXTREME variations between MSM's stock ECU programming. Some pull great and some fall on their face transitioning between open and closed loop. My car was one of the 'bad' computers and the ex mrs_hyde had an '04 that felt amazing running through the gears. This was observed in back to back drives when both cars were stock.

Portland doesn't have a true carousel like T2 at Thunderhill or Pacific but I can picture exactly what you are describing while feathering the throttle. I'm afraid all the reflash will get you is deltas and interpolations of a crap factory tune.

The MSM Bilsteins are way over dampened for soft springs. It might feel stiff but it is really not. Besides safety upgrades, real suspension should be your next move.

You can better brake performance with better pads and save the 11.75" upgrade for over the winter. You can't simply pull the ABS fuse. The ass will get all wiggly coming down from triple digits without the electronic proportioning. Been there, done that.

Mobius is spot on with the oil cooler. You are pushing 300* without one and all that heat will eventually work its way into parts of the engine that pull timing.

There are dozens of things that will make the car faster and more reliable. What are you allowed to do by class? That is the real question. If you can't do a MS but a OEM ECU is required, I would expect a reflash is in the grey area at best. Bend the rules to get a competitive advantage and make the competition committee address your innovations over the winter. :vash:

IMO the MSM should be a real advantage in some of the stock classes because you can sneak a turbo into a bunch <2.0l NA competition but it doesn't seem to work that way. I'm interesting in your progress though because my own car has so much MSM under the '90 chassis. Subscribed! ;)

May have missed it, but didn't see anyone address your low clutch pedal.

With the clutch, it's just basic maintenance. Make sure the master and slave are good (you can swap both in less than an hour -- cheap -- I can almost guarantee that the slave needs replacement). Braided steel line here doesn't hurt. The actuation height with my ACT is at the stock level, but I did need to refresh components to get there.

My big FM clutch is very near the floor. Are lots of guys getting OEM pedal height or is the norm on a heavy clutch that the pedal is closer to the floor? I have new hydraulics on both end, braided line in place of the pigtail and have bled with vacuum, traditional and gravity. I'm going to build a motive pressure bleeder to see if I can get more pedal.

He has an RX-7 oil cooler, see the bottom of post #6.

The clutch is probably simply an adjustment to the rod as outlined in bold type in the instructions from FM who apparently get that pretty often (I just installed the FM2 kit in an MSM last weekend).

I have FM sways front (full stiff) and rear (full soft) with 550/350 springs (Bilstein Hard S shocks) and even with only moderate tires I get full travel to the bump stops in some corners. See pic from Homestead Miami Speedway:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1341436566

And I'm just out screwing around for fun in HPDE. Look at the difference between the outside front tire and the inside one! My springs are about at the limits for my shock valving or I'd go stronger. And my home track is Sebring which is really rough so I can't do too much more with it unless I get more capable shocks that can handle the higher rates (like Xidas).

If you are really racing and not just playing around, go to 949Racing and get the Xidas and at least 700# front springs and whatever they recommend for the rear. Those guys just finished first in two different classes at Thunderhill with their Miatas (I just read about it in the NASA newsletter).

For a testimonial, find any post made by Hustler where he talks plainly about the difference he found when he switched to his Xidas.


EDIT: BTW, stock MSM springs are only 215/158 lbs/in for comparison. You are always on the bumpstops in corners and that isn't giving you any suspension compliance to hold the tire on the track as it encounters bumps.

My clutch travel with the FM clutch is no different than stock.

Midpack: When I origionally looked into it, the vendor did not know if MS had a way around the MSM's immobilizer circuit. The BEIG unit seemed an easy route. I was hoping for something I didn't need to mess with. Assuming they will get it right, perhaps at a later date I may get a stand alone if/when I need more horsepower. Right now I need more control (brakes and suspension) rather than more power.

Soviet/Curly: Yes the Notto's seemed to get greasy by a dozen laps. Thanks for getting me on track with the pressures; I thought it was just the tires.

Hornetball/Sixshooter: I will try lengthening the rod to take all of the freeplay out of the pedal. I suppose the next step would be to mill the flywheel and pay more attention to "setting up" the clutch.

OK. Next conference race at PIR is mid-August.

So far on my list is:
1)transmission shifting: - lengthen clutch rod and change trans fluid to Amsoil.
2)tires greasy: drop psi from 40 hot, to mid thirties hot.
3)surging at mid-corner when feathering: disable/unplug tumbler vacuum line. Also, a little rich? AFR's are 10.5-11 when under boost... UPS the ecu back to chiptorque?

Now here are the main issues: I need more confidence in the braking zone and more control thru the corners to actually engage the race. Until then, I am only lapping.

I've got 2k left in my budget for this season. I don't want to waste $ by spending a lot on buying something that I'm just going to replace next year.

From what I have gathered from the forum: for control in the brake zone, I will need trackspeed's bbk. At a minimum, I will need to install steelbraided lines, finish my ducts and switch to carbotech 10's up front. To cure the wobble when at threshold braking, I will need poly or derlin bushings to keep the suspension from stretching.

From what I understand from the forum: for control in the corners I will need get set up with xida's. At a minimum, I will need to up my current spring rates (700/325) as well as use FCM bump stops.

I think that Emillio uses a large front bar and a MSM rear. I currently have the Eibach set-up that SM uses. I do still have the MSM rear bar. I have adjustable links.

With this in mind, any recommendations to get the most efficient use of my time and racing dollar?

This is a very good start, and best of all, you'll need it whether or not you upgrade to the TSE setup. Except the pads, but they're a wear item anyways. However, if you're a "do it once and forget it" kind of guy, just get the TSE kit now.

Actually, now that I think about it, the TSE kit includes SS lines for the front. Any other aftermarket (FM, Goodwin) SS line set will NOT work with the Wilwood calipers you'd be upgrading to.

So just think of the TSE kit as a VERY expensive front SS line kit. And they can hook you up with the rears too.

This is how I justified the TSE upgrade over the sport brakes using Hawk brake pads.
Sport brakes:
4 sets of $120 pads per year
3 sets of $60 rotors (pairs) per year
=$660 in front sport brake costs per year

TSE kit
2 set of $60 pads per year (less than that)
1 set of $60 rotors per year (actually less than that)
=$180 in front TSE brake costs per year

After basically two years you'll break even in brake part savings. Not only that, the car will do everything better, with zero compromise if you have 9" 6ULs, which any self-respecting man has on his car. If you've chosen to run $180 Carbotech pads, well, that's your problem rather than mine.

I had relatively good luck with XP10's, braided lines, good fluid, and good ducting on an otherwise stock '94 brake setup...it worked well but I cracked a rotor after two weekends and Goodwin was (still is?) offering such a kick ass deal on the 11" Wilwood BBK I just went with it (I like TSE a lot, but not enough to justify spending $400 more on their kit)

Since you can't afford good suspension with that budget I'd get a BBK, bushings, the 949 Sway bar kit, and some stiffer springs for the suspension you currently have.

You won't need the springs once you replace your suspension with xida's next year, but you can sell them for to close to what you pay for them, especially if you can find them used.

If you still have the MSM rear bar and some functional adjustable endlinks, you just need the 1.125 bar from 949 and the brace/block if you don't have it.

The MSM abs always seems to wag the tail under hard braking. I just let it do it's thing.

Enjoy your $100 replacement rotors.

What are your corner weights? If more than 2-3% off, you may notice that in braking.

We swap rotors twice a year on all the race cars. Race on our kit for 2 years and you get the increased pad life and significantly improved pedal feel for free. ;)

He's spending 300% more on pads and 250% more on rotors so there is no money left over for superior braking. Even when I post and clearly demonstrate cost effectiveness, they get hung up on the initial cost.

They use the same pads. :facepalm:

And Sav, 949 sells 11" rotors for $81 shipped, you sell 11.75" rotors for $31 + $27 shipping = $58, so its actually only a $23 difference... even at 2 rotors a year it will take 17 years to make up that difference ;)

Tell us more about buying brake rotors one at a time.

• I pay $60 per box of front pads, you know how I feel about Carbotech.
• Double the savings since cars use two rotors up front.
• I doubt the 11" rotor lasts as long as the .75" larger rotor.
• Feel my 290*f front caliper temps all over you.

I'd love for someone with experience on the 11" and 11.3" brakes to compare temps and pedal feel.

I believe the "he" in "he's spending 300% more on pads" was refering to the OP on sport pads.

That, or Hustler meant he was going through pads three times as quick. One of the two.

Both. Carbotech XP16s are $190 per set for my Wilwoods. Hawk are $60. He's talking about buying Wilwood calipers and running the ~$200 pads over running the larger rotors.

Is there anyone running Carbotechs on a fast turbo car and happy about it?

Edit: I'm not a turbo, and not nearly as fast as some cars here. But, I would qualify myself as in the medium-fast category. And my car is 2600lbs, so stopping it takes a bit of work.

I am still on my sport rotors, on my original XP8's that I have had for four years. They now have 4 track days on them, three of them at my current 200whp level, 2 of those at PIR which is known for being tough on brakes here in the NW. They still have plenty of life left in them. Don't know how PIR compares on braking to Texas tracks, maybe Jman can chime in.

As a point of reference on the front straight I brake from 110 to 50 going into the chicane; back straight is 115-120 down to about 90, then 90 to 50.

All of my 200whp track days have been with the brake ducting in place, which I'm sure has helped a lot.

I would question why you would need the XP-16s ? Have your rotor temps been that high?

I should also add that there was much wine & spirits, an expensive dinner, and jewelry involved before I finally bedded my carbotechs.

Good point. My mistake. Let me try that again...

11.75": 2x rotors @ $31 + Shipping @ $41 = $103

11": 2x rotors @ $81 = $162

So a $59 difference for the set. Still 8 years @ 2 sets a year. For me at least, thats way longer than I expect to have the car.

he quoted Sav's response to my comment on the 11" kit, so I assume that's what he's referring to. But you never know with Hustler ;)

Who said anything about using carbotechs with a BBK? Maybe I missed it. Either way, I agree that would be stupid. WAAAY to expensive and the Hawks seem to work great.

Hey Mobius: would you care to get together and help me get a few things sorted out? Nest race is at PIR Aug 18th, so I've got some time.

My problem with "braking" isn't that the car won't stop, it is just that I don't have a feel for what the ABS is doing, I can't seem to find a consistent "feeling" of where lock up would occur, so I can't seem to push the braking point. If ABS can work, then maybe just upgrading to steel lines and finishing my ducts would get me thru Aug.

My main problem with "racing" the car is that it's too wobbley to run right up someone's fender in a corner and hold my line. Not a problem if I enter ITE, as the other cars are so much faster I don't have any close racing... But it'd really be alot of fun to run SPM, which is grouped with all of those Pro-3 bmw's... something like 30 of them... that are all real close to my current lap-times!

Anyway, I thank the forum for showing me where I ultimately need to be to have a sorted and reliable chassis and braking system. I'll keep working to get there.

It's all good, though. If I get the brakes, then I can run ITE and have a lot of clear track to begin to sort out my proportioning valve setting. If I do the Xida's, then I can run SPM with some close racing, but maybe give up some in the braking zone for this season.

With better shocks and springs you'll be able to take some corners faster and with improved confidence. You might not need to slow down as much so you can put off buying the brakes till second, haha!

Corner weight sHould be 50:50

I'd be happy to offer whatever assistance I can. I'm out of town until the 18th, and then my schedule is always irregular, we'll try to work something out. I'll be at BMW/PCA HPDE on the 31st, can you make that? Eddie Nakato (owner of AR Auto Service in Lake Oswego) is usually at those, and he would probably be happy to ride with you and/or drive your car for a couple of laps. He has a lot of W2W experience.

Thx. It'll be a goal to have some forward progress on my issues by then. I'll be there.

I'm making some real progress towards the August race. I've got the willwood brakes and braided lines. I've nearly finished installing the poly suspension bushings (one particularly tight one really kicked my axx), and I've got a stop gap measure arranged for the shocks; I've ordered up a FCM bumpstop kit (fcm-mt-kit-sm) and have sent the oem shocks to Bilstein to be revalved for 700#f/325#r springs. While not the ultimate, this should get the car "stable enough" on the track and allow some wheel to wheel racing; and it was cheap enough for my budget.

After my last observation race, the steward at ICSCC (Conference) re-instated my license. SCCA here we come, then, season accomplished!