Fire Suppression
 

Which one do you use

1. ESS
2. SPa
3. Fire Bottle

number of nozzles

I have a manual SPA system in my car. 4 nozzle. 2 at driver. 2 in in engine bay.

I need to get one. Planning on doing a 3 or 4 nozzle manual system. Either Spa or OMP.

I've thought about doing two small systems. One pull handle for engine bay and one pull handle for interior.

I have a lithium battery and getting concerned that i may need another nozzle for the trunk.

I don't have one either, but the plan is a 5 nozzle system. One at the fuel rail, one at the turbo, one at feet, one near the torso, and one (maybe two) pointed at the fuel tank.

Relevant to my interests... Just finishing a full cage, so I need to upgrade from an extinguisher to a dedicated system.

Anyone have experience with the Zero Novec systems?

Also, the electronic systems seem very popular, but I would think they could be compromised more easily by fire? Especially an electrical/battery fire?

I just learned about these (Element E100 extinguishers) as an alternative to small car-mounted fire bottles. Could be a nice complement to a complete system.
https://discoveryparts.com/auto-raci...ent-40100.html

I have one in my car. cool little thing.

No offense, but if you are trying to plan a system for your car, it's better to outline your budget, racing class, car setup, etc than asking for a random straw poll.

Budget for entire fire system?
HPDE, TT, sprint or enduro?
Street driven or trailered?
OEM fuel system of heavily modified?
What engine?
OEM fuel tank?
Caged or just 4 pt?
Gutted, partial or full interior?

In our shop, we have cars with fully automatic 4L 4 nozzle systems, manual 3 nozzle, 2L systems, Element sticks. The Element sticks are a no brainer for every single vehicle we have including our street cars.

Hand held bottles are for two things. Putting out the grass fire under you started when you parked off track mid session or putting out someone else's car. They are not a primary for putting out your own engine fire. If you have fire in the car, pull that lever and get the F out.
For caged cars, we recommend a manual system with 3-4 nozzles and a handheld. Handheld needs to be accessible from the drivers seat with harness unbuckled. If you need to crawl or lean towards the center of the car to reach the hand held, it's too far away. You should be able to reach the handheld while seated normally. Idea is that you snatch it on the way out the drivers door.

For inline 4's, we like 4 nozzles
Nozzle at the fuel rail to cover
Nozzle at the dipstick. If you blow the engine, it usually involves a brief oil pressure spike that pops dipstick out and sprays header with oil. Oil fire yay.
Nozzle at drivers torso on top of cage
Nozzle at fuel pump cover on tank

The automatic system has a two temp sensors that trigger at... 180° IIRC. One above fuel pump plate, one over drivers head on cage.

We have ESS and Spa systems on our cars, plus the Element sticks as handhelds.

From 2011. That car is long gone but the system has been updated and pit into Vegas, our K swapped enduro build.

Agree Emilio

Budget for entire fire system? - $under 1K
HPDE, TT, sprint or enduro? - HPDE
Street driven or trailered? - Trailered
OEM fuel system of heavily modified? - TSE Fuel Relay, 190LPH pump, oem fuel lines to AN fittings and Hoses to Radium Fuel Rail
What engine? NB1 (dyno 148whp).
OEM fuel tank? OEM
Caged or just 4 pt? - custom cage NASA approved
Gutted, partial or full interior? fully gutted

Thanks, Emilio... great info.

Don't understand why someone gave you a neg cat for that... :rolleyes:

The Element form factor is appealing, but inability to stop, re-aim and push the trigger again makes me skeptical on how effective they can be in real-life scenarios.

The hate is real, while they're buying parts from us and using our tech articles. lol

If that was one of our cars, we would probably do a Spa 4.0L mechanical.

Also forgot to mention to verify your suppression agent is rated for alcohol if you run E85. The AFFF in Spa systems is rated for E85, for example.

Foam makes a mess but absorbs heat and doesn't displace O2. Halon or other gas based systems leave no residue but might be less effective in a moving car with both windows down. Driver's lungs can be burned from breathing hot air and you can burn through your suit even if youare not in direct contact with flame. IMO, absorbing heat is a critical metric for choosing the medium. Halon an gas type media are best for underhood IMO. I'd rather have the foam give me a few more seconds of breathable air and reduce burns. The mess the foam leaves is the least of my concerns at that point.

We have used this kit in at least 4 builds. $400-ish. https://www.spatechnique.com/store/i...=1032&catID=31
The automatic systems cost more. Aluminum tanks cost more.

4L Spa mechanical here in the V8 RX7. One passenger side engine bay towards fuel rail/firewall fuel lines, one driver's side towards oil pump cooler/lines, one interior towards electronics and dry sump tank, one interior on roof X towards driver/dash area. Just remember, its to give you time to get out, not to save your car.

Wow that's a lot cheaper that I was expecting. I want to keep mine a dual purpose car at first so I wasn't looking at fire suppression systems yet. For $400ish though there's no reason to wait.

Thanks again Emilio

Alternative fire suppression systems are also available as supplemental or primary if not mandated by the organizing group. Both products do not contain caustic compound and will not affect electronics or alloy components

Automatic deployment when exposed to fire - Proteng
https://proteng.com/protect-my-rv

Element stick in lieu of a standard auxiliary fire bottle
https://discoveryparts.com/auto-raci...ent-40100.html

Just popped into my inbox from Winding Road. https://store.windingroad.com/lifeli...hanical-system
4.0L steel mechanical system, AFFF

Looks like a good alternative to the SPA systems, around the same price.

Thanks Emilio - called Lifeline and they recommended aluminum Novatec 2.25kg system with 5 nozzles (3 engine and 2 driver).

is Novatec fire suppression as good as AFFF?

Do you mean Novec?
Dunno. Not something I have researched or had any experience with. Let us know what you find out.

3M Novec 1230 is a real thing now. I don't see a point at this time getting any other suppressant (besides price, but the pros outweigh that) at this time

Intersted.

Moar info pls

We ran the ESS 2.3 system in our enduro NB.

Tom is great to deal with, recertifying and refilling is super easy/cheap with their unpressurized system, would definitely recommend it.

Novec is basically the non-ozone depleting replacement for Halon.

My concerns with Novec are the same reason I avoided Halon historically - if you're in a closed cockpit/closed window series, by all means run it. However, I have no windows in my car, and the series that I run requires windows down at all times if you do. If you have to activate the fire system before you are at a dead stop (or even once you are), you are losing a lot of that gas volume and flareup prevention out the windows. Its possible that the Novec systems can move enough volume quickly enough to extinguish everything, but I don't want to be in a situation where I have to find out.

Interesting. Agree, same reason I wouldn't use Halon. Also displaces O2. That's vital considering O2 is what keeps the driver conscious until they can exit. Halon was, I believe, designed for use in airplane wings where fuel is carried. Closed system and the ideal properties for that application.

For an open window car, with me in it, I'll take messy foam that absorbs heat and doesn't displace O2.

One minor detail, make sure the floor in your car is grippy enough for you to use your feet to eject if its wet with foam. Bare metal floor (beside being hot) is damn slippery when wet.

You can't be more wrong. Halotron is the direct Halon replacement.
Novec 1230 does not remove oxygen. It removes heat thus it is much safer in an enclosed tight spaces with people as a cockpit of a race car.

* It is non-toxic and does not remove oxygen thus you can spray it inside the cockpit
* It works on both gasoline and E85
* It is non-corrosive and causes no damage on wiring and electronics
* There is no clean-up after use - it fully evaporates after use leaving no trace

Here is how it works:

If you want to get one

By Lifeline, it is their Zero 360 line of products:
LifelineUSA - Novec

By Spa Technique: Look at their Spa Extreme line:
https://www.spatechnique.com/store/i...t.cfm?catID=30

Or if you're baller you can even get a system which WRC use - FIA 8865-2015 certified, carbon fiber bottles and separate bottles for the engine and cockpit:
https://www.spatechnique.com/store/i...=1028&catID=30

Both Lifeline and SPA Technique offer Novec handhelds too - they go under the same line names (Zero 360 and Extreme)

P.S. If you try doing this with AFFF, you'll have to replace all electronics and wiring after that

That's neat. Thanks for the info. Too lazy to research it myself :P

So the main question is whether it works in a car with no windows? I will need to do more research and get back to the thread and post my findings.

Formula cars have no windows and roofs. Seems to me that is a way more extreme case than a Miata with windows down :) Read the first sentence in the first paragraph:
https://www.spatechnique.com/content...Aex_225-AE.pdf

Test of the SPA Novec 1230 system for WRC with a single nozzle:

I just found that Safecraft makes a cheaper option for Novec, and they offer a 10lb version where SPA and Lifeline only do ~5lb. The giant 10lb might be overkill but would make me feel better about some of it going out the windows before the car is stopped. Available at Summit, pitstopusa, etc.

https://safecraft.com/product/model-lt/
https://pitstopusa.com/i-23955168-sa...ategory:135210
https://pitstopusa.com/i-5078323-saf...ategory:135210

3M literally markets Novec 1230 as a replacement for Halon (and FM200), even for industrial usage. Yes, they behave differently, but I have never seen a Halotron suppression system for race cars. I've seen small handheld extinguishers, but not a suppression system.

FWIW, the cup car guys run Novec 1230 systems, but they run 15 pounders minimum - 5 for cockpit only, 10 for fuel cell area.

Because Halotron is not suitable I guess :) Safety data sheets have this "The toxic effects of the proprietary gas mixture in the absence of extremetemperature are primarily its ability to function as a simple asphyxiant (i.e. displace oxygen)"
Anyway. Novec 1230 does not displace oxygen and is safe in the cockpit.
But best, talk to the system manufacturers - they know how the thing should be installed and what do the different FIA standards related to these mean, why nowadays top tier racing series and FIA standards ask for separate bottles for driver and engine and so on.

This whole thread is full of great information. I'm impressed by the element fire sticks. There's no reason not to carry something like that in a modified car.