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Old 10-23-2014, 03:50 PM   #1
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Default Help me choose the right **** errr I mean wing

Hey guys,

Im looking into developing the aero on my track toy. at this point it has a GV front lip, I know useless, and a sizeable ducktail bolted to the trunk lid. I will be adding a sizeable splitter this offseason along with front tire spats and potentially canards, my main question is the rear. Im debating between the GTC200 and GTC300 wings that 949 offers on their site. The car currently sits at around 220 whp/230wtq on a very conservative tune to preserve the rods. The tires I use are 205/50/15 SM6/7 takeoffs on x8 wheels. I do plan to do rods on the motor eventually and up the power however I dont plan to change the turbo setup so I imagine I will peak somewhere in the mid to high 2xx whp. Based on Emilios recommendations on 949s site it seems that the GTC300 really should be used on cars with 300+whp, however I have seen local s2000 guys with relatively stock power run these wings with great success despite the additional drag penalty.

Basically aero wizards, which of the 2 wings should I go with and should I use any sort of risers in conjunction with it.
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Old 10-23-2014, 04:10 PM   #2
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GTC200 & call it a day
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Old 10-23-2014, 04:35 PM   #3
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I don't know enough to add useful input but with the Singular endplates it seems like the 200 would be perfect. At least, that is the direction I am headed.
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Old 10-23-2014, 05:00 PM   #4
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Also according to 949 logic: Small wings are balanced well with just airdams and undertrays.
So if you plan on more front downforce than that, go bigger out back too.

I'd go gtc300 or CoT if you plan on a splitter. Less angle of attack needed for same downforce @ less drag.
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Old 10-23-2014, 06:00 PM   #5
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this is what the front aero will look like if that is of any help.
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Old 10-24-2014, 01:13 AM   #6
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I would cast my vote for the GTC-300 (assuming mounted below roof height) as the best pairing with the front aero you have planned and that is offered (through 949) with miata-specific mounts. You're also well into the power range that would make use of it in my opinion/experience.

The 200 pairs well with an airdam/no splitter. With proper front aero you'll end up with a GTC-200 jacked up on multiple risers, with big endplates and lots of angle. I'd prefer to buy a wing with some headroom that balances with the front at a minimal angle - then you've got room to play with less/more angle as you tweak the setup in the future.

Aero is like boost - you think you'll be happy with a certain amount, but you always want more more more. It's incurable so my advice would be don't paint yourself into a corner by making a big purchase that doesn't give you room to grow.

The step beyond that for BIG downforce, is 2D wing mounted high/far back, but the GTC-300 has a lot to offer.

edit: forgot you asked about risers. You're going to want a set of risers for either the 200 or 300. Some guys double up on risers with the 200 in an effort to get the most performance out of it that they can. IIRC, double risers still puts it below roofline by a couple inches, which is about the max height you want with the 3D design.

-Ryan

Last edited by ThePass; 10-24-2014 at 01:27 AM.
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Old 10-24-2014, 09:41 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePass View Post
The step beyond that for BIG downforce, is 2D wing mounted high/far back, but the GTC-300 has a lot to offer.

-Ryan
Good post except for this part. You do NOT want to mount the wing far back. Optimally it would be directly over the rear axle and the further back you put it the more your rear downforce reduces your front downforce due to leverage. Also the higher you mount it the more your wings drag removes downforce from the front for the same reason, but high mounting is almost always worth it.

IMO you always want a 2d wing. I'd only run a 3d wing if it was specifically designed for at least the base of the windshield back on my car. IE a 3d wing for most of you would need to be designed on an NA/NB miata with a hardtop on. Installing a 2d wing is like putting in a set of universal fuel injectors (you have to adjust your tune and make the mounts match up), installing a universal 3d wing is like slapping some random tune from some car that may or may not be a miata into your mega squirt and just adjusting it for the size of the injectors you have.

I feel like it would be in the spirit of your build to make a dual element wing out of ebay wings with home made endplates.
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Old 10-24-2014, 11:57 AM   #8
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Do you have a specific EBAY wing in mind? We used to be able to get cheap Chinese CF airfoils to make into wings, but I think they're gone. Got a link for what you're referring to?
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Old 10-24-2014, 12:12 PM   #9
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Not really. The downside to the ebay wings is who the **** knows anything about the aerofoil besides the fact that it was probably copied from a name brand wing of some sort. And they're all narrow. There's some ricer wings that are injection molded plastic that should be strong enough or would easily be made strong enough with a single wrap of fiberglass, and they look to have copied the one of the apr 2d wings. But they're harder to find than the ones that look like they copied the apr 3d wings. You dont want the aluminum extruded ebay wings.
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Old 10-24-2014, 12:16 PM   #10
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I don't suppose anyone has gone as far as datalogging damper travel front and back with various aero configurations to deduce downforce? That sort of empirical data is usually limited to kinda-high budget race teams and outside the normal realm of the average DIY enthusiast.
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Old 10-24-2014, 02:35 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
Good post except for this part. You do NOT want to mount the wing far back. Optimally it would be directly over the rear axle and the further back you put it the more your rear downforce reduces your front downforce due to leverage. Also the higher you mount it the more your wings drag removes downforce from the front for the same reason, but high mounting is almost always worth it.
Speaking in terms of taking each concept to the extreme, yes. However, in my post I'm referring to a more down-to-earth range of what someone will likely do. Most of what I'm going to say following this, you are well aware of but I'm posting it as info for others who follow the conversation...

As you certainly know, moving the wing back is done for much the same reason as moving it higher - to get the 2D wing out of the area behind the cabin which has a complex combination of different airflow directions which it is not designed to operate in (whereas 3D wings are designed for this area). Within a reasonable range - longtails and uprights that reach back at a 30* angle aside - the benefits of getting the wing into more unidirectional airflow are far outweighing the drawback of a see-saw effect of force behind the rear axle.

Also as an aside, doesn't the suspension act to reduce this effect? - dramatically moreso than if there was no suspension and simply a hard pivot point at the rear axle.

The frame rail mounts that were used on Crusher for their GT250 are good example of probably the outer range of how far back you want to take a wing before the effect does become apparent. But even that is substantially far back compared to what can be accomplished with anything that mounts to the trunk area. My uprights which go to the trunk (and then are reinforced to the top of the frame rail) reach back at almost 45* and still don't place the airfoil quite as far back as the example on Crusher.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
IMO you always want a 2d wing. I'd only run a 3d wing if it was specifically designed for at least the base of the windshield back on my car. IE a 3d wing for most of you would need to be designed on an NA/NB miata with a hardtop on. Installing a 2d wing is like putting in a set of universal fuel injectors (you have to adjust your tune and make the mounts match up), installing a universal 3d wing is like slapping some random tune from some car that may or may not be a miata into your mega squirt and just adjusting it for the size of the injectors you have.
Again, on a very broad basis when speaking of ALL 3D wings, yes ideally they should be designed for a particular vehicle shape and height/orientation relative to that car.

However, if you narrow the discussion down to the APR series of 3D wings, it has been found through quite a lot of various experiences from many people over the years, that the GT-200 and GT-300 shapes work quite well on a miata. If we start talking about some other 3D wing out there, we have far less experience within the community to draw on, but these in particular are not the wild cards that you make them out to be.

-Ryan
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Old 10-24-2014, 02:39 PM   #12
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What about the Blackbird Fabworks Lexan Spoiler?
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Old 10-24-2014, 02:44 PM   #13
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The GTC200 and 300 do have one thing that most 3d wings dont. They're made in a large enough quantity that the biggest drawback of the 3d wing is reduced enough to be stomach-able, to the point where they're actually cheaper than APR's 2d offerings.
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Old 10-24-2014, 02:53 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wannafbody View Post
What about the Blackbird Fabworks Lexan Spoiler?
Probably the most effective single rear aero mod available short of going to a wing IMO. I ran a similar spoiler for a couple years and there's a reason this spoiler style is standard issue for the Super Miata series - less $$ than a wing since the series' goal is to be low-cost of entry - and lots of benefit. Adjustability is important as different angles make big differences.

A spoiler isn't a replacement for a wing - more of a stepping stone if you will or a good pairing for a car that has minimal front aero. Martin (the OP) already has a spoiler and is looking to move up to more downforce.

Those who already have a spoiler shouldn't yank it when they move up to a wing - experiment with dropping the spoiler to a very shallow angle (almost flat) under the wing and win

-Ryan
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Old 10-24-2014, 03:40 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePass View Post
Those who already have a spoiler shouldn't yank it when they move up to a wing - experiment with dropping the spoiler to a very shallow angle (almost flat) under the wing and win
I've been trying to convince an XP competitor who is adding a wing to keep his current spoiler (used to be an FP car).
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Old 10-24-2014, 04:40 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePass View Post
Probably the most effective single rear aero mod available short of going to a wing IMO. I ran a similar spoiler for a couple years and there's a reason this spoiler style is standard issue for the Super Miata series - less $$ than a wing since the series' goal is to be low-cost of entry - and lots of benefit. Adjustability is important as different angles make big differences.

A spoiler isn't a replacement for a wing - more of a stepping stone if you will or a good pairing for a car that has minimal front aero. Martin (the OP) already has a spoiler and is looking to move up to more downforce.

Those who already have a spoiler shouldn't yank it when they move up to a wing - experiment with dropping the spoiler to a very shallow angle (almost flat) under the wing and win

-Ryan
My impression was that a spoiler has more downforce than a wing. but it has significantly more drag.
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Old 10-24-2014, 04:43 PM   #17
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No way, spoiler isnt even close to being able to generate the same amount of downforce as a wing.
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Old 10-24-2014, 04:46 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
No way, spoiler isnt even close to being able to generate the same amount of downforce as a wing.
how do you know everything? are you just guessing or what? anyway the guys that told me that work here
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Old 10-24-2014, 04:48 PM   #19
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K.
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Old 10-24-2014, 05:00 PM   #20
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Empirical evidence.. bolt on a spoiler and feel a nice bump in rear-end stability/grip on a car with little/no other aero. Improve front aero, find yourself wishing for more rear grip again. Bolt a big wing onto the same no-aero car, understeer wildly into some parallel universe. Build front aero to match, win.

-Ryan
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