A HOW TO thread for TT classing miatas??
02-08-2011, 10:14 AM
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A HOW TO thread for TT classing miatas??
Thought I'd start the thread of how to get your turbo miata classed for Nasa TT, instead of spamming Hustler's build thread. - and really, I'm FAR from instructing you how to do it either. I hope others will chime in with their experience/knowledge.
Well, 1st off, you won't be using the base TTF** miata class found in the rules found here: RULES
The classer forms can be found here: CLASSER
TT website forums: HERE
You will have to send a dyno sheet (with smoothing) and your comp weight (you in your car) to Greg Greenbaum
National TT, PT, & ST Director
Nat. Medical Director
greg at nasa-tt.com
and he will re-class your car based on the weight and HP. Once reclassed (don't expect a re-class quickly), this will allow you to then fill out the classing form using the new class parameters. Don't class your car based on a TTF** starting class as I did before getting the re-class. FYI, seems if your over 200ish hp, you will end up in TTB, TTB*, TTB** - I'm TTB** with 237hp and 2420 min comp weight. With mods it can be likely you will end in TTA - with numerous vettes.
There are several very knowledgable guys here that can help get you classed... I'm not one of them. That's kinda why I hope this thread can help get you/me through the cloud, if they're willing to share the knowledge!
Now, my question is:
After re-classing the car with a TTB** base (237max @ 2420 = 10.25:1) and mods, I end in TTA with 6 points to spare. The HP/weight ratios for TTA is 8.70:1
Does this mean, running in this class, I can up the hp to 278 with a min comp weight of 2420? Reason for asking is b/c of the way Greg stated my class option in the compliance of hp/weight:
Log books and annual tech - what do I need and tech at the event?
Well, 1st off, you won't be using the base TTF** miata class found in the rules found here: RULES
The classer forms can be found here: CLASSER
TT website forums: HERE
You will have to send a dyno sheet (with smoothing) and your comp weight (you in your car) to Greg Greenbaum
National TT, PT, & ST Director
Nat. Medical Director
greg at nasa-tt.com
and he will re-class your car based on the weight and HP. Once reclassed (don't expect a re-class quickly), this will allow you to then fill out the classing form using the new class parameters. Don't class your car based on a TTF** starting class as I did before getting the re-class. FYI, seems if your over 200ish hp, you will end up in TTB, TTB*, TTB** - I'm TTB** with 237hp and 2420 min comp weight. With mods it can be likely you will end in TTA - with numerous vettes.
There are several very knowledgable guys here that can help get you classed... I'm not one of them. That's kinda why I hope this thread can help get you/me through the cloud, if they're willing to share the knowledge!
Now, my question is:
After re-classing the car with a TTB** base (237max @ 2420 = 10.25:1) and mods, I end in TTA with 6 points to spare. The HP/weight ratios for TTA is 8.70:1
Does this mean, running in this class, I can up the hp to 278 with a min comp weight of 2420? Reason for asking is b/c of the way Greg stated my class option in the compliance of hp/weight:
Your '91 Mazda Miata turbo with a maximum 237 rwhp on a Dynojet, and a minimum competition weight with driver of 2420 lbs, will have a new TT/PT base class of TTB**/PTB** (fourteen points). Your new base tire size is 265mm. You will not need to assess modification points for power mods or weight reduction. However, all other modifications, including transmission and LSD, that are not standard items on a base trim '91 Mazda Miata must be assessed points. You must be compliant with the above listed maximum Dynojet hp and minimum competition weight during any tech inspection.
Last edited by GeneSplicer; 02-08-2011 at 06:00 PM.
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02-08-2011, 04:56 PM
#2
As far as I understand it you must be at or under the 237whp no matter what class you end up in after adding points.
"You must be compliant with the above listed maximum Dynojet hp and minimum competition weight during any tech inspection." --- Seems pretty cut and dry to me.
Also section 5.4.3 in the TT/PT rules says: "If a car is tested by Officials, and found to have a higher maximum horsepower than was submitted for base classification purposes on the Car Classification Form, it will be considered a 'Procedural Violation'..."
Hopefully that helps clarify it. Once you get the re-class e-mail that's the max hp you can run. If you want to run higher hp you have to start the process all over again.
"You must be compliant with the above listed maximum Dynojet hp and minimum competition weight during any tech inspection." --- Seems pretty cut and dry to me.
Also section 5.4.3 in the TT/PT rules says: "If a car is tested by Officials, and found to have a higher maximum horsepower than was submitted for base classification purposes on the Car Classification Form, it will be considered a 'Procedural Violation'..."
Hopefully that helps clarify it. Once you get the re-class e-mail that's the max hp you can run. If you want to run higher hp you have to start the process all over again.
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02-08-2011, 05:55 PM
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Ya know - that sucks. Can't get any clearer than that, just hoping it wasn't so. Next year might just go all out and run TTU and not mess with all these points. Competitive? No... but I don't have a chance in TTA either. Thansk man
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02-08-2011, 10:31 PM
#4
You know a miata won PTA this year right? PT has the same rules as TT, just wheel to wheel racing instead of time trial. If you read Hustler's thread on the Nasa TT Forums you'll see a lot people arguing for a miata in TTA. Apparently Greg recommends turning up the power or pulling some weight out of the car and get a TTA* base class. The reasoning being if your base class is TTA* then your base tire size is 295mm. If you're running 225 tires then you are -70mm which is -19 points. That gives you 31 points to stay in TTA.
I'm not sure what your points total is (guessing: 3 dampers, 2 springs, 2 sway bars, 3 for LSD, 3 for 6MT, 7 for NT01s, 2 for brakes, 7 for aero) but you might be able to stay in TTA but get the better power/weight. Unfortunately from Hustler's thread on here it sounds like it doesn't take much more HP to bump you from TTB** to a TTA* base class.
So, what are you taking points for?
I'm not sure what your points total is (guessing: 3 dampers, 2 springs, 2 sway bars, 3 for LSD, 3 for 6MT, 7 for NT01s, 2 for brakes, 7 for aero) but you might be able to stay in TTA but get the better power/weight. Unfortunately from Hustler's thread on here it sounds like it doesn't take much more HP to bump you from TTB** to a TTA* base class.
So, what are you taking points for?
Last edited by Efini~FC3S; 02-08-2011 at 10:32 PM. Reason: Despite proofreading eight times, there was a grammar fail
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02-08-2011, 11:03 PM
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This just in. It looks like NASA has released a beta Excel spreadsheet for calculating your class.
http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic....=39367&start=0
http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic....=39367&start=0
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02-09-2011, 07:57 AM
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I couldn't get it to load right...
That's exactly what I should have done. He said I could turn up the boost too in a seperate email. Base classing in TTA seems more like it, really. B/c at TTB** start with 14 right there. However, my 1.8 build is not complete, and I don't feel like destroying the stock 1.6 the first event of the year by jacking it at 250/275 rwhp. Any idea what power levels class us in TTA?
On the NT01s, it's -3 overall b/c it's -40mm (-10pts) than the reclassed base size of 265mm. +3 LSD, +7 Suspension (shocks, springs, sway bars), +10 (splitter, lip (Greg says +3), wing), +2 brakes. +19 in all
Doesnt seem like a lot of mods but the +14pts for the base class kills.
Even if I added weight, turned down boost, I'll still be in TTB* - with current mods, that will still put the car in TTA (19pts mod, +7 class: cut off is 20pts). I'd have to lose 7pts to stay in the very top of TTB. That's why I'm just going to go with it as TTB**. After my *** pounding for a couple months, maybe the new motor will go in and I'll ask for reclass in TTA - or go all out and get *** pounded again.
This is the reclass email from Greg;
You know a miata won PTA this year right? PT has the same rules as TT, just wheel to wheel racing instead of time trial. If you read Hustler's thread on the Nasa TT Forums you'll see a lot people arguing for a miata in TTA. Apparently Greg recommends turning up the power or pulling some weight out of the car and get a TTA* base class. The reasoning being if your base class is TTA* then your base tire size is 295mm. If you're running 225 tires then you are -70mm which is -19 points. That gives you 31 points to stay in TTA.
On the NT01s, it's -3 overall b/c it's -40mm (-10pts) than the reclassed base size of 265mm. +3 LSD, +7 Suspension (shocks, springs, sway bars), +10 (splitter, lip (Greg says +3), wing), +2 brakes. +19 in all
Doesnt seem like a lot of mods but the +14pts for the base class kills.
Even if I added weight, turned down boost, I'll still be in TTB* - with current mods, that will still put the car in TTA (19pts mod, +7 class: cut off is 20pts). I'd have to lose 7pts to stay in the very top of TTB. That's why I'm just going to go with it as TTB**. After my *** pounding for a couple months, maybe the new motor will go in and I'll ask for reclass in TTA - or go all out and get *** pounded again.
This is the reclass email from Greg;
Your '91 Mazda Miata turbo with a maximum 223 rwhp on a Dynojet, and a minimum competition weight with driver of 2415 lbs, will have a new TT/PT base class of TTB*/PTB* (seven points). Your new base tire size is 265mm. You will not need to assess modification points for power mods or weight reduction. However, all other modifications, including transmission and LSD, that are not standard items on a base trim '91 Mazda Miata must be assessed points. You must be compliant with the above listed maximum Dynojet hp and minimum competition weight during any tech inspection.
Or,
Your '91 Mazda Miata turbo with a maximum 231 rwhp on a Dynojet, and a minimum competition weight with driver of 2500 lbs, will have a new TT/PT base class of TTB*/PTB* (seven points). Your new base tire size is 265mm. You will not need to assess modification points for power mods or weight reduction. However, all other modifications, including transmission and LSD, that are not standard items on a base trim '91 Mazda Miata must be assessed points. You must be compliant with the above listed maximum Dynojet hp and minimum competition weight during any tech inspection.
Or,
Your '91 Mazda Miata turbo with a maximum 233 rwhp on a Dynojet, and a minimum competition weight with driver of 2520 lbs, will have a new TT/PT base class of TTB*/PTB* (seven points). Your new base tire size is 265mm. You will not need to assess modification points for power mods or weight reduction. However, all other modifications, including transmission and LSD, that are not standard items on a base trim '91 Mazda Miata must be assessed points. You must be compliant with the above listed maximum Dynojet hp and minimum competition weight during any tech inspection.
Or,
Your '91 Mazda Miata turbo with a maximum 237 rwhp on a Dynojet, and a minimum competition weight with driver of 2420 lbs, will have a new TT/PT base class of TTB**/PTB** (fourteen points). Your new base tire size is 265mm. You will not need to assess modification points for power mods or weight reduction. However, all other modifications, including transmission and LSD, that are not standard items on a base trim '91 Mazda Miata must be assessed points. You must be compliant with the above listed maximum Dynojet hp and minimum competition weight during any tech inspection.
Or,
Your '91 Mazda Miata turbo with a maximum 231 rwhp on a Dynojet, and a minimum competition weight with driver of 2500 lbs, will have a new TT/PT base class of TTB*/PTB* (seven points). Your new base tire size is 265mm. You will not need to assess modification points for power mods or weight reduction. However, all other modifications, including transmission and LSD, that are not standard items on a base trim '91 Mazda Miata must be assessed points. You must be compliant with the above listed maximum Dynojet hp and minimum competition weight during any tech inspection.
Or,
Your '91 Mazda Miata turbo with a maximum 233 rwhp on a Dynojet, and a minimum competition weight with driver of 2520 lbs, will have a new TT/PT base class of TTB*/PTB* (seven points). Your new base tire size is 265mm. You will not need to assess modification points for power mods or weight reduction. However, all other modifications, including transmission and LSD, that are not standard items on a base trim '91 Mazda Miata must be assessed points. You must be compliant with the above listed maximum Dynojet hp and minimum competition weight during any tech inspection.
Or,
Your '91 Mazda Miata turbo with a maximum 237 rwhp on a Dynojet, and a minimum competition weight with driver of 2420 lbs, will have a new TT/PT base class of TTB**/PTB** (fourteen points). Your new base tire size is 265mm. You will not need to assess modification points for power mods or weight reduction. However, all other modifications, including transmission and LSD, that are not standard items on a base trim '91 Mazda Miata must be assessed points. You must be compliant with the above listed maximum Dynojet hp and minimum competition weight during any tech inspection.
Last edited by GeneSplicer; 02-09-2011 at 08:09 AM.
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02-09-2011, 09:00 AM
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I sat and read the NASA TT rules one morning, literally all morning. I finally just printed out the pdf spreadsheet and that helped tremendously.
These classes.... weirdly enough, remind me of Forza 2 & 3 classes lol. So based off that, miatas would do good in..... really low hp classes or 900+ hp classes on tracks with really long straights! Lol
I added up points for my 97 and it came out with 22 points, which put it into TTD. So I'd have quite a few points to spare while staying in TTD, especially with 165rwhp being the max @ 2420lbs. I didn't add the added compression from the 01 block, guess I would need to since the base trim 97 didn't come with it.
From what Ive read NASA TT classes are "get the frog, leave with the warts" . Meaning cars like genesplicers will fall into TTA inevitably and he'll just have to get faster to be competitive
BTW aren't there some crazyass corvettes in TTA?
These classes.... weirdly enough, remind me of Forza 2 & 3 classes lol. So based off that, miatas would do good in..... really low hp classes or 900+ hp classes on tracks with really long straights! Lol
I added up points for my 97 and it came out with 22 points, which put it into TTD. So I'd have quite a few points to spare while staying in TTD, especially with 165rwhp being the max @ 2420lbs. I didn't add the added compression from the 01 block, guess I would need to since the base trim 97 didn't come with it.
From what Ive read NASA TT classes are "get the frog, leave with the warts" . Meaning cars like genesplicers will fall into TTA inevitably and he'll just have to get faster to be competitive
BTW aren't there some crazyass corvettes in TTA?
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02-09-2011, 10:17 AM
#8
That's exactly what I should have done. He said I could turn up the boost too in a seperate email. Base classing in TTA seems more like it, really. B/c at TTB** start with 14 right there. However, my 1.8 build is not complete, and I don't feel like destroying the stock 1.6 the first event of the year by jacking it at 250/275 rwhp. Any idea what power levels class us in TTA?
If you do get a TTA* base class with your mods you would end up with Tires : +7 -19, Susp +7, +3 LSD, +2 brakes, +7 for *, +10 aero which = 17 points overall. That gives you another 2 points to play with and still stay in TTA.
If you really want to be competitive you would need to change your aero. +6 for your lip and spoiler is huge. You'd be better off using just an ISC air dam, which is probably as if not more effective than what you've got now plus it would only be 3 points.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that for guys like you and Hustler who built your cars the way you wanted them to be and are now trying to get them to fit in a TT class, you're never going to be super competitive. Sure NASA will give you a place to run them in TT but to be competitive you have to build the car with some TT class in mind from the get go. There's a saying in NASA TT/PT that goes something like "if your going to take the points, you sure as hell better take the points right". That's to say a stock LSD and an O.S. Giken LSD are both +3. If you want to be competitive and you're taking +3 for an LSD it better be the best damn LSD you can get for your car. Same with the aero, if you're going to take +10 for airdam, splitter and wing you had better have the best designed airdam, splitter and wing money can buy.
Sorry for rambling, hopefully this is helpful for you guys considering TT.
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02-09-2011, 10:25 AM
#9
I added up points for my 97 and it came out with 22 points, which put it into TTD. So I'd have quite a few points to spare while staying in TTD, especially with 165rwhp being the max @ 2420lbs. I didn't add the added compression from the 01 block, guess I would need to since the base trim 97 didn't come with it.
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02-09-2011, 12:10 PM
#11
You don't have to send dyno sheet to Greg, just tell him what your Max whp will be. You need the dyno sheet along with Gregs email, plus classification sheet to turn in to your regional tt director.
Vettes are not very crazy in tta. They start in tta or tta* or ** depending on the year/model. Many only have an intake and tires. Still a vette so they can be pretty quick, but we have a big weight advantage. Even if we are down power/weight wise, we have potentially better braking, and handling especially in tight or transitional corners like chicanes. Besides, if it was easy, it wouldn't be competitive which is the name of the game.
Also, a swap from a later model Miata must be reclassified. 165rwhp? Do you have a dyno sheet on that? That's awesome na power. I could do without my turbo if I could make that much power.
Vettes are not very crazy in tta. They start in tta or tta* or ** depending on the year/model. Many only have an intake and tires. Still a vette so they can be pretty quick, but we have a big weight advantage. Even if we are down power/weight wise, we have potentially better braking, and handling especially in tight or transitional corners like chicanes. Besides, if it was easy, it wouldn't be competitive which is the name of the game.
Also, a swap from a later model Miata must be reclassified. 165rwhp? Do you have a dyno sheet on that? That's awesome na power. I could do without my turbo if I could make that much power.
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02-09-2011, 11:17 PM
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Any one check out the new track coming to New Orleans? You Texas boys - time to road trip and we'll swap rubber at the track - R Compound that is...
http://www.nolamotor.com/index/
This track will also be on the mid-south Nasa circuit.
But, to get on point, I must concede that I wanted a fast HPDE car - and yes, trying to fit it into the parameters of TT is not fun, to be competitive anyway.
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02-10-2011, 08:50 AM
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You don't have to send dyno sheet to Greg, just tell him what your Max whp will be. You need the dyno sheet along with Gregs email, plus classification sheet to turn in to your regional tt director.
Vettes are not very crazy in tta. They start in tta or tta* or ** depending on the year/model. Many only have an intake and tires. Still a vette so they can be pretty quick, but we have a big weight advantage. Even if we are down power/weight wise, we have potentially better braking, and handling especially in tight or transitional corners like chicanes. Besides, if it was easy, it wouldn't be competitive which is the name of the game.
Also, a swap from a later model Miata must be reclassified. 165rwhp? Do you have a dyno sheet on that? That's awesome na power. I could do without my turbo if I could make that much power.
Vettes are not very crazy in tta. They start in tta or tta* or ** depending on the year/model. Many only have an intake and tires. Still a vette so they can be pretty quick, but we have a big weight advantage. Even if we are down power/weight wise, we have potentially better braking, and handling especially in tight or transitional corners like chicanes. Besides, if it was easy, it wouldn't be competitive which is the name of the game.
Also, a swap from a later model Miata must be reclassified. 165rwhp? Do you have a dyno sheet on that? That's awesome na power. I could do without my turbo if I could make that much power.
165rwhp would be badass lol. I worded it wrong, I was just saying that 165rwhp is the max you can obtain in TTD @ 2420 lbs (or something close to that weight) 160-165 has been done before in nationally competitive CSP cars (e85,vvt,etc) So I guess it's prossible for a TT car.
If you had a 160rwhp n/a miata in TTD it would be pretty damn competitive..... based off what I've read cause Im a big
when it comes to NASA.I hope to see 130+ rwhp off the current setup in the 97. 99 head with a port n polish, stock 01 block, maf delete w/ iat, standard I/H/E, and a ms3x running it. Suppose I could squeeze some more out of it with 100 octane or something similar.
Back on topic.... now
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02-10-2011, 08:59 AM
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Based off all your videos at Barber this is definitely true. Granted the drivers may be at different skills levels, but some of the big hp cars try real hard to not have to point you by
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02-10-2011, 09:36 AM
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Vettes ate my *** up at MSR-H, they won't do that at Hallett, HHR, or MSR-C.
I can't wait to run that new track in NOLA, but I'm towing down there. Getting stuck in southern LA does not sound like a good idea to me.
I can't wait to run that new track in NOLA, but I'm towing down there. Getting stuck in southern LA does not sound like a good idea to me.
Last edited by hustler; 02-10-2011 at 10:03 AM.
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02-11-2011, 04:38 PM
#17
But, to get on point, I must concede that I wanted a fast HPDE car - and yes, trying to fit it into the parameters of TT is not fun, to be competitive anyway.[/QUOTE]
then don't worry about competitive. (for class) make your car as fast as possible, regardless of what class you fall into. there's always gonna be someone for you to battle with. they might be in a class above you, or below but it doesn't matter, all the tt classes go out in the same group. some of my funnest sessions in ttb were playing with tta,s, and a few ttu cars (lotsa vettes)
then don't worry about competitive. (for class) make your car as fast as possible, regardless of what class you fall into. there's always gonna be someone for you to battle with. they might be in a class above you, or below but it doesn't matter, all the tt classes go out in the same group. some of my funnest sessions in ttb were playing with tta,s, and a few ttu cars (lotsa vettes)
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02-19-2011, 07:55 AM
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I'm officially done with NASA after submitting my off season changes for classification and getting the result. I added 11hp and dropped 15lbs and got hit with a 14 point assessment. WTF? Turns out miata got hit with a new base weight this year. Yay!
So, now my options are to remove points, make the car slower to stay in TTB, (where I'm pedalling as fast as I can with my current setup to catch the overdog M3), or enter the arms race in TTA (where the same TTB M3 crushes the entire TTA field) . I have no desire to do either.
The TTC** M3 (E46) gets to add an exhaust that drops 60lbs and adds hp, and gets no points ecu reflashes w/o needing dyno classification. Stays in same class as last year, while the miata takes it up the ***.
Spoolin, did you get your reclass? Required due to the change in the base weight. Did you see that glass is now required in your top? Dont forget all the numbering/lettering/decal requirements for a class supposedly for "street cars".
Sadly, this means no TxMC for me either. Yeah, I could run hpde, but it's a matter of principle to me. They tout "rules stability", I build my car to the rules, and then the rules change. WTF> I'm done.
I'll run PCA TT and hpde with other orgs, and battle Hustler at M@H.
So, now my options are to remove points, make the car slower to stay in TTB, (where I'm pedalling as fast as I can with my current setup to catch the overdog M3), or enter the arms race in TTA (where the same TTB M3 crushes the entire TTA field) . I have no desire to do either.
The TTC** M3 (E46) gets to add an exhaust that drops 60lbs and adds hp, and gets no points ecu reflashes w/o needing dyno classification. Stays in same class as last year, while the miata takes it up the ***.
Spoolin, did you get your reclass? Required due to the change in the base weight. Did you see that glass is now required in your top? Dont forget all the numbering/lettering/decal requirements for a class supposedly for "street cars".
Sadly, this means no TxMC for me either. Yeah, I could run hpde, but it's a matter of principle to me. They tout "rules stability", I build my car to the rules, and then the rules change. WTF> I'm done.
I'll run PCA TT and hpde with other orgs, and battle Hustler at M@H.
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