Leveq

The problem with these things is we dont know how the guy drives or what he thinks is "too much oversteer"... I've got 600-400 at neutral rake w/ driver (-2.5F, -2.2R camber cause need ELBJs) and FM sways and unless I put the rear ARB to mid-setting it was way understeery. Unfortunately that also means that I had no traction with the open diff as well as no rear travel. Sure would have liked 50lbs more on the rear springs and kept the ARB to softest tbh.

That said, next year will put the rear ARB to softest and experiment with rake more, as well as getting a Torsen and ELBJs, we shall see. But right now I don't see why his car would be terminally undriveable with 600-450 only, there must be something else.

Savington

iTrader: (31)

Competitive road race cars run 800/500 or even 1000/500. Some run 1100/500. Even Spec Miata is 700/325. 600/450 is not going to work. End of story

Leveq

Depends on more than that tho... Obviously anything under the 800-500 is gonna be a compromise (and the 1000+, aero/slicks), usually because of inadequate shocks. I'm just saying it shouldn't be undriveable... But then again most cars just seem really understeery to me so eh. The best I've seen recently was Ryan's, at least seemed acceptable haha.

Savington

iTrader: (31)

I disagree

concealer404

iTrader: (3)

I also disagree.

My car was FUN on 600/400 w/ the bigass RB front bar and MSM rear bar, but it wasn't fast. Fairly tail happy, which was FUN, but not fast.

Turned FAST on 850/500 with same bars, bilstein shocks. Like holy **** fast.

These are light cars. The margin for error in rates front to rear is not large.

Leveq

There's a middle-ground, which is probably different per driver.

And yeah, obviously proper rates and shocks will make a good difference (that did the trick much more than front to rear rates ratio), but a car won't go fast (relatively speaking) if you're front limited everywhere vs the rear, without badly overdriving anyway.

EErockMiata

I've driven my miata on track with 400/250, 600/350 and 700/400 with street tires ranging from z1 star specs to hoosiers. I will not run anything but 700-800 / 400 on my car ever again. Everything else is slow in comparison and you're using bandaid fixes and compromises to make that work. With sticky tires, you should be on 700/400 minimum (super street tires)... anything sticker and you can make a serious argument for just starting on 800/400.

And Leveq, I like the others simply disagree with you. I would almost guarentee that if you change your setup to 700/400 you will be faster. (provided your shocks aren't total junk).

cabowabo

600/450 with RB front and OEM bar rear was oversteer-y for me. As said above it was fun, but never felt like I could rail corners b/c I was always waiting for the rear to step out. Dropping to 350 felt great for what the setup was. 800/500 with upgraded sways or 1000/500 with oem sways feels infinitely better, though.

Bronson M

iTrader: (1)

No **** it over steered......I was at 800/450 and went up to 1000/450 before it felt right to me. It now understeers into the corner and let's me power out of the turn controlling rotation with the throttle. This is with OEM bars.

With that said don't skip getting the car corner balanced, real easy to end up with wedge in the car.

Leveq

I'm shock-limited, and I'd run 800-500 anyway with better swaybars if that wasnt the case. I have to make due with what I have unfortunately

I'm just saying that it shouldnt really be undriveable, not with his swaybars and rake. Of course it wont be fast either way, it's too soft all around still, like my setup.

Savington

iTrader: (31)

Again, I disagree. The difference between 1000/500 and 1100/500, or the difference between a 12mm and 14mm rear sway, or the difference between a 1.250x0.188 sway and a 1.125x0.125 swap is driver preference. Those choices are within the boundaries of a car that will trend from slightly loose to slightly tight depending on the tire, condition, power level, aero package, track surface, temperature, etc. 600/450 is so far outside the boundaries of what is correct for the car that can be succinctly described as "not correct". This characterization is independent of driver preference, setup, usage of the car, and all other variables. It's simply not right. If you are making it work, that's fine, but anyone else who got into your car would immediately complain of terminal oversteer at all times.

Leveq

Well, it 's better to compare vs 800-500, he's running DOTs and no big aero. It's 1.6 ratio F/R vs 1.3, 600-400 is 1.5 (and that's not oversteery). But I guess the rear is much more affected by rate changes than the front, so still not exactly comparable.

Anyway, kinda going in circle at this point. From what I gather his shocks can handle more rates all-around anyway. Then he can just shove an ARB in the back again.

concealer404

iTrader: (3)

I'd rather have correct spring rates and shocks be a little outside their range than have incorrect spring rates and happy shocks.

There's not a sudden spring rate where all of a sudden shocks don't work.

Leveq

At 600-400 my Yellows complain quite a bit on bumpy tracks, mid-session they feel noticeably less dampen-y. As I said, shock-limited

And I wouldn't run 700 either way considering my current balance, not with 400 rear.

sixshooter

iTrader: (12)

Yellows? That's a problem.

Leveq

Yeah I'm starting to think so too tbh. Sent one off because the adjustment got stuck, and now the new one's stuck too... At least it's in the right range this time. They handle fine for what they're meant and cost but that issue is quite annoying. And unfortunately XIDAs are 2500USD at my door here, otherwise I'd rock 'em.

Savington

iTrader: (31)

You cannot use F/R rate ratio to do anything except make yourself look bad, dude. 700/400 and 1100/500 have vastly different ratios but they both work for different reasons. The suspension is different front to rear and the rates reflect that.

We're going to go in circles until you stop posting bad info in the Race Prep section here. With 600/450 and Koni Yellows, no offense, you simply can't comprehend how bad your setup is compared to the average spring/shock package discussed in this section. You don't have the frame of reference to understand the shortcomings in your setup and how to address them.

It's not a knock against you, I'm sure you mean well, but it would be like me walking into a kitchen with professional chefs and telling them how much salt to use. They're going to be polite the first few times, but if I keep doing it they're eventually going to tell me to **** off, and they probably should.

sixshooter

iTrader: (12)

^What he said.

Leveq

400*

And I never said it was good, it's just a compromise due to budget constraints. But it's not undriveably oversteery either, it's actually leaning on understeer if anything, hence why I wonder how 50lbs more on the rear AND no rear ARB would be a drift car for OP. I'm not posting "info", never said anything like that. It's a discussion. And IIRC we're discussing setup numbers for a basic car on street/DOTs, so I don't know where those 1000+/500 comparisons are coming from.

cabowabo

That's what current 200tw street tires require on track and 1000/500 is with OEM sways for a non-aero car. I've run my car (daily / time trials) that way on 225 RS4's, it works. If your sig is how you run your car the blackbird spoiler is the only reason you don't oversteer and even get a hint of understeer, with proper spring rates and no real front aero that much spoiler angle would be terminal understeer for days.