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I am just wondering if I should try to get you to substitute straight hose => female -10AN to mate with the sandwich plate male -10AN fittings?
I'm not even sure a straight fitting would fit there. The adapter is surrounded by the subframe/motor mount below, starter motor behind, IM above, and alternator in front. All the setups I've ever done have used a 90 on the bottom with the lines running under/around the alternator.
On my 1.6 I was able to do a 90 pointing up. With a gauge plate between the block and the sandwich plate. The 1.6 IM is quite different though. On the 1.8 I did 2 90s pointing down.
Ordered the kit. With posts showing already, where to mill / sand / grind the support and keep it, I should be able to. Will report back when finished.
At the first trackday at the Algarve circuit with this car (02 NB2 stock engine with I/H/E) I had severe issues with oil temps.
Ambient temps were 28-30C (82-86F) at most for the day, with 60-70% rel. humidity and low altitude ~100m ~ 300ft
I was able to do at most 2 10/10ths laps before oil temperatures reached ~135C (275F), and the cam angle sensor took a crap, needing to cool down for a few minutes.
This happened consistently for all sessions throughout the day. My coolant temperatures never exceeded 93C (200F) with the stock radiator
(I run with stock undertray and I added an aluminium bent plate bolted to it that seals agains the bottom of the rad. The rad is also sealed on the top and passenger sides, not fully tape sealed, but good enough for current power levels)
While back put together my own oil cooler kit (similar to TSE): Mocal Plate with 180F thermo, AN10 fittings and hose and a Setrab Proline 19 rows with 310mm wide matrix(the TSE ones are the 235mm matrix iirc).
This should be about the same useful matrix area as the TSE 25 row.
I really want to run it behind the radiator for safety (its also a street car) and for ease of maintenance, hence why I oversized it (this car wont be boosted, will be an NA build so I can flog it without worries while keeping costs low).
I placed it vertically behind the radiator on the passenger side right next to the driver side fan.
Some pics of how its mounted (minus ducting between radiator and itself, thats going to be done as soon as I upgrade to a bigger radiator, besides some simple neoprene and aluminium tape):
There is quite the gap between both rads, which will be reduced with a thicker radiator.
With my ghetto ducting with neoprene and aluminium tape on the top, bottom, loose on the passenger side and between the driver side fan (just on the top side, so still hole on bottom part) I ran in 3rd @ 6000-6500rpm on the highway for a good 5 minutes (5 speed, speed was about 110-120kph ~ 68-74mph) with 1-3 car lengths behind traffic and I saw about 110C ~ 230F oil temps
Is this okay? Will be a while till I have another trackday.
What do modest power (150-160whp) NA track cars in high heat areas in the US run at usually with 90F weather?
More importantly: if I put this in front of the radiator, but on the top section (so its not directly visible from the bumper mouth), would that prove to be significantly more efficient?
I have a Rev built MS3 incoming, so the Cam angle sensor issues should stop being a problem until much later, but id also like to keep oil temps at or under 120C/240F, from what ive read on these forums.
I've mounted the 13 row Setrab oil cooler with the Mocall thermostat sandwich plate onto my NA 1,6 turbo block with the water coolant reroute mounted. All parts are new, out of the box.
As known, the Mocall sandwich plate works with a bypass so the oil flows constantly thru the oil cooler even when the thermostat is still closed (closed under 86°C = 186,8°F)
I have an oil sensor mounted in the oil sump and this reads temperatures of 65°C = 149°F with the engine fully warmed up driven normal on the street. (outside temp 25°C = 77°C) The temperature reading in the sump is correct and checked with an infrared measuring tool. So this is far too low and not healthy
My first thoughts were that the 13 row oil cooler was too big. I switched this one for a 7 row cooler with same results. temp still too low... I added some duckt tape to the oil cooler to block the air flow. The oil temp is now 70°C = 158°F. Still too low.
The Mocal sandwich plate is mounted directly onto the 1,6 block without any spacer, with the 90° oil lines mounted to the upper side. The cooler is mounted between the radiator and crankshaft pulley
Question1:
How can I test the thermostat mounted onto the block? knowing that there is always oil flowing thru the cooler at any temperature?
Question 2:
If the thermostat is in perfect working order, what can be the problem of this overcooling issue?
Question 3:
I've read a few posts about mounting a spacer or 1,8 oil cooler between the Mocal sandwich plate. Is this only to have enough room for mounting the oil lines or is this to prevent an oil route problem?
Just to be technically correct, the thermostatic sandwich plate is always open to the oil cooler (fail-safe) and has a built-in bypass port. The purpose of the thermostatic element is to open the bypass port at low temperature and close the bypass port at high temperature. This is opposite to your description and is also opposite as compared to a water thermostat.
Be aware that a sump sensor will often read quite a bit lower than the temperature of the oil that is actively being circulated through the engine, especially with street driving. The sump itself is a heat sink and is finned for air cooling. Some of the oil in the sump can also be relatively stagnant. This temperature difference becomes less with the oil flows and heating experienced with track driving, but is still there. So before you become overly concerned, it would be best to get a measurement of the oil actively being drawn from the sump. Try pointing the IR measuring tool at the oil filter case instead of the sump.
As for your questions:
1. If your thermostat is working correctly (i.e., bypass port open at low temperatures), you should be able to flow a liquid through the plate with the oil cooler ports blocked at room temperature. You could also place it in a pot of water that you gradually heat on a stove to observe the movement. Remember, open at low temperature and closed at high temperature.
2. Make sure you are really overcooling first. The oil should at least be coming up to the temperature of the engine coolant as that is the dominant temperature unless you are operating at high RPM. Also, the oil takes MUCH longer to warm up than coolant. Once the coolant is at temperature, I'd continue to drive for at least 15 minutes before expecting the oil temperature to be stable on the street. A lot less time if you are on track, of course.
3. Spacer is mainly used for mounting lines for those of us that want the lines feeding out the bottom where all the engine ribbing is. Spacer is also a good place to mount a temperature sensor. Downside of the spacer is that it adds leak points.
Personally I found that the 186* thermostat was not enough for street driving. And the 205* thermostat worked much better.
Probably depends on what "street driving" means. I've got the lower temp thermostat and don't have issues, even in winter. But my commute is ~40 miles almost all at 60mph or above and a lot at 70mph+. So, I'm mostly 3-4K RPMs. My oil always settles about 10 degrees above water temp (usually 195-200 water and 205-210 oil).
A short commute, low speed or lots of stop-and-go would completely change that. Oil cooler is really a track mod. I'm considering pulling it off my daily to optimize AC performance.
Just to be technically correct, the thermostatic sandwich plate is always open to the oil cooler (fail-safe) and has a built-in bypass port. The purpose of the thermostatic element is to open the bypass port at low temperature and close the bypass port at high temperature. This is opposite to your description and is also opposite as compared to a water thermostat.
Be aware that a sump sensor will often read quite a bit lower than the temperature of the oil that is actively being circulated through the engine, especially with street driving. The sump itself is a heat sink and is finned for air cooling. Some of the oil in the sump can also be relatively stagnant. This temperature difference becomes less with the oil flows and heating experienced with track driving, but is still there. So before you become overly concerned, it would be best to get a measurement of the oil actively being drawn from the sump. Try pointing the IR measuring tool at the oil filter case instead of the sump.
As for your questions:
1. If your thermostat is working correctly (i.e., bypass port open at low temperatures), you should be able to flow a liquid through the plate with the oil cooler ports blocked at room temperature. You could also place it in a pot of water that you gradually heat on a stove to observe the movement. Remember, open at low temperature and closed at high temperature.
2. Make sure you are really overcooling first. The oil should at least be coming up to the temperature of the engine coolant as that is the dominant temperature unless you are operating at high RPM. Also, the oil takes MUCH longer to warm up than coolant. Once the coolant is at temperature, I'd continue to drive for at least 15 minutes before expecting the oil temperature to be stable on the street. A lot less time if you are on track, of course.
3. Spacer is mainly used for mounting lines for those of us that want the lines feeding out the bottom where all the engine ribbing is. Spacer is also a good place to mount a temperature sensor. Downside of the spacer is that it adds leak points.
Hello Hornetball,
thanks for your helpful reply!
The temperature of 65°C in the sump is reached after 30min driving on the road and stays there all the time. I did an IR temp reading on my buddy's stock Miata. The oil temp in the sump was 88°C after 20 min street driving...
Thats the reason why I still think my oil temp is far too low. When I point the IR to the oil filter or Mocall thermostat housing, values are about 86°C.
So, still concerned about the low oil temperature. Cooling temp is about 90°C, oil temp about 65°C in the sump. Still think this is no good.
Reading about the difference in temperature that people are noticing from the oil pan to the sandwich plate, has anyone considered the effects of air cooling on the outside of the sensor on the oil pan?
On another car with the oil pan bolt around subframe height, I noticed that with the undertray off, indicated oil pan temps dropped from around 75C steady state to 55C on the motorway, but as soon as I stopped, they jumped back up. However, when I put the undertray back on, insulating the sensor with the 3D printed shroud below (clips over the sensor and drain plug assembly and is covered around the underside, except a small opening for the sensor wires) upped the steady state motorway cruising temperature to around 82C, suggesting that even with an undertray directly under the sensor, significant cooling of the sensor was still occuring. Perhaps this could explain some of the difference seen between the oil pan and sandwich plate measurements.
Thanks to gtred, savington, and sixshooter for advice. Also one other guy whose name escapes me, who also ran a duct beneath his FMIC. I got the 16 row kit from TSE, and mounted the cooler above my I/C by hanging it with a couple of angle pieces, bolted to the horn bolt locations. Hoses go across the top of the O/C, down around the '99 A/C receiver, through the Anti-Sway mounts (with folded plastic sheet to protect them from the bolts) and then to the T/Stat adapter. I moved my P/S cooler from above the I/C to below it (temporarily Ty-wrap until I can get some bosses welded to the I/C).
Stock tray is in place with minimal annular space around the charge pipes, then trimmed at the front where it used to screw to the air director, but now connected to the front ducting piece with push-rivets.
I will have to edit this later to give oil temps, as the gauge is not yet installed.
BUT, between 100 degree days last year, and this year;
1) I ducted the front with plastic sheet, bypassing about 2" below the I/C, and sealing the sides very well. Under tray is also in place.
2) Installed the O/C
3) Did a coolant return re-route.
EDIT: In the location on my daily commute, where, with A/C, I would hit 235*F CLT last year. This year I'm at 205*F. The MAT did not take a hit.
Pic below is what I did to make the IM support to be able to keep it. Works with standard oil filter. Possibly a little more material removal would allow for a larger filter.
Relief in Support
Another view
O/C above I/C
Pic of ducting going below I/C, and the P/S cooler in part of that space.
I believe its possible to just order just the 205°F thermostat insert for the housing, rather than ordering the entire housing again. I'm unable to find the PN at the moment, but I figured I'd throw it out there.
This is the actual temperature of the oil that your pump is drawing out of the sump.
IR thermometers are pretty inaccurate when used on aluminum, so I wouldn't trust that number very far. They assume that the object emitting the IR has a black body spectrum, most stuff is pretty close, but the emissivity of aluminum is pretty far off.
Napa Gold and Wix XP series filters have black bodies, is that close enough?
Generally speaking, the more reflective something is, the lower its emissivity (and the further from an ideal black body spectrum it is). Black paint is probably fairly accurate, but you'd need to check it to be sure.
05-29-2017, 01:47 PM
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