Quickest platform like for like: S2000 or Miata
Hi all
I've been collecting parts for some time to build a track focused NA Miata. A reasonably serious build plan including NB subframes, high comp ITB'd 1.8, motons, and a real focus on light weight. In the meantime, I scored an unmissable deal on an S2000 that I'll daily for a while. I've since learnt some about them, and am starting to wonder... Given equal power (let's say an F20 and gearbox in both chassis) , what do you think would be quickest on track with similar level of preparation? Earlysport |
Probably an s2k. It fits 245's from the factory, so a 255 or bigger is probably an easy mod. That alone means that it will have almost 4 more inches of rubber on the road, compared to an NA with 225's.
Figuring that they both have the same engine and transmission, and then calling them "similar in prep" isn't quite fair. You just doubled the NA power and spent a few thousand (4k?) dollars to do it. Dropping that into a miata is not a swap you do in a couple hours. "Learnt" is not a word. Learned is what you were looking for, I think. |
Ditch the NA idea and just get an NB and the NB subframes come for free. The NB body can fit 15x10's with just a fender roll. Emilio has photographic proof on this forum.
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Originally Posted by ryansmoneypit
(Post 1363186)
Probably an s2k. It fits 245's from the factory, so a 255 or bigger is probably an easy mod. That alone means that it will have almost 4 more inches of rubber on the road, compared to an NA with 225's.
Both cars can be quick and it really just depends on how far you want to take them. I consider the Miata better for a track car because of weight, cost of consumables, and aftermarket support... but the s2000 is quicker out of the box and you can certainly do a lot worse. |
Originally Posted by njn63
(Post 1363200)
It also has 700 more pounds to haul around.
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Originally Posted by Earlysport
(Post 1363184)
Hi all
I've been collecting parts for some time to build a track focused NA Miata. A reasonably serious build plan including NB subframes, high comp ITB'd 1.8, motons, and a real focus on light weight. In the meantime, I scored an unmissable deal on an S2000 that I'll daily for a while. I've since learnt some about them, and am starting to wonder... Given equal power (let's say an F20 and gearbox in both chassis) , what do you think would be quickest on track with similar level of preparation? Earlysport Figure out what your budget it , all in and let us know. Ultimately, that is always the deciding factor in any project. |
Anyone know what the S2000 geometry does as far as roll centers and their migration? From descriptions I've heard of S2000s at speed, I wonder if Honda did something kinda weird there.
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Originally Posted by mekilljoydammit
(Post 1363327)
Anyone know what the S2000 geometry does as far as roll centers and their migration? From descriptions I've heard of S2000s at speed, I wonder if Honda did something kinda weird there.
AP2 = Succeeds in merely scaring you |
OK, looking it up, I'm seeing AP1 with around 2" front roll center height and 7.5" rear at stock ride height, and the AP2 around a quarter inch lower roll center in the rear... front roll center dropping 75% faster than the body, rear dropping about as fast. If that's right, that seems like a lot of anti-roll through geometry in the rear, which is probably related to why they break away like they do.
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Look at the rear bump steer curves for the two chassis. That will tell you more
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Wait, what? How did Honda screw *that* up?
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Originally Posted by emilio700
(Post 1363346)
AP1 = Tries to kill you
AP2 = Succeeds in merely scaring you |
Originally Posted by mekilljoydammit
(Post 1363452)
Wait, what? How did Honda screw *that* up?
Essentially, the car toes the rear close to zero and mid bump then adds a wee bit of toe out at full bump. AP1 and ND share this design trait. The intent is to help the car rotate into a turn as it rolls over. This is fine when the front is sliding at .9g. Add high grip tires (RE71R) that don't slide at 1.2g, increase roll via the higher roll moment and the car becomes impossible to drive at the limit. Crazy loose and unpredictable as it cycles up and down with insufficient damping for the tires being used. Adding a bunch of damping and roll stiffness dialed the bad behavior out on our ND. It's a 5 link rear with 4 of the links sharing the toe geometry. That means there is no single pick up point that can be moved to correct it. You would have to either cast a new knuckle or change four arms. So yeah, not a big fan of the S2000 here. I enjoyed mine but have much happier with the C6 Z06 that has 2.5x the power and handles like a big NA |
With equal power and rubber the Miata has the potential to be much faster. You just don't see that often because there are far fewer 250hp Miatas set up well to go fast around a track than there are S2000's with a few bolt ons. Regardless, I'd take a Miata over S2K any day for the better suspension geometry and lighter weight, despite knowing that the Miata needs a lot more surgery than the S2K. If getting deep into a project to achieve performance that could be had with fewer mods with a different chassis isn't your thing, the S2K might be the better choice.
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Originally Posted by emilio700
(Post 1363583)
Mazda did something similar with the ND. Really aggressive roll steer. Works fine if you are a smooth driver on low grip tires. Not so well with high grip tires or if you are less than smooth. Rear toe curve for the ND looks distressingly like the AP1. I had rear bump steer correction (one pick up point) on my AP1, massive front bar, tiniest rear bar, 17x10" wheels with 275's and it was finally very close to, but still not quite as good as a bone stock NA. ND requires fair bit of roll stiffness and specific rear damping rates to deal with the toe steer.
Essentially, the car toes the rear close to zero and mid bump then adds a wee bit of toe out at full bump. AP1 and ND share this design trait. The intent is to help the car rotate into a turn as it rolls over. This is fine when the front is sliding at .9g. Add high grip tires (RE71R) that don't slide at 1.2g, increase roll via the higher roll moment and the car becomes impossible to drive at the limit. Crazy loose and unpredictable as it cycles up and down with insufficient damping for the tires being used. Adding a bunch of damping and roll stiffness dialed the bad behavior out on our ND. It's a 5 link rear with 4 of the links sharing the toe geometry. That means there is no single pick up point that can be moved to correct it. You would have to either cast a new knuckle or change four arms. So yeah, not a big fan of the S2000 here. I enjoyed mine but have much happier with the C6 Z06 that has 2.5x the power and handles like a big NA |
You really need to be asking the dollar for dollar question..... In which case the Miata wins right up until the c5 or c6 vett wins.
Pretty much the only place the s2k wins is STR with a big budget. |
Originally Posted by ThePass
(Post 1363610)
With equal power and rubber the Miata has the potential to be much faster. You just don't see that often because there are far fewer 250hp Miatas set up well to go fast around a track than there are S2000's with a few bolt ons. Regardless, I'd take a Miata over S2K any day for the better suspension geometry and lighter weight, despite knowing that the Miata needs a lot more surgery than the S2K. If getting deep into a project to achieve performance that could be had with fewer mods with a different chassis isn't your thing, the S2K might be the better choice.
The F20 engine is a peach though. I've got an NB2 1.8, 12.5:1 pistons, cams, Maxim header, ITB's etc all sitting around, but yes a K swap is starting to look really appealing... What I was ultimately wondering Ryan has confirmed above. If you can make similar power, and fit similar rubber, the Miata will be faster :-) Cheers, Earlysport |
Originally Posted by Chilicharger665
(Post 1363194)
Ditch the NA idea and just get an NB and the NB subframes come for free. The NB body can fit 15x10's with just a fender roll. Emilio has photographic proof on this forum.
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There's a very good reason my AP2 is a street car and my NB is a track car :) There's just no comparison in terms of running costs + mod costs for the speed you get.
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Also, if you think that the surgery on the NA/NB tubs are bad, the surgery required on the S2000 is all sorts of sad panda.
Not to mention for all of the bitching that we've done about $600 hardtops now costing $1200, S2K hardtops have always been $Texas; nevermind Toyota MR-S hardtops. |
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