Buying a 99 W/BRP MP62 SC Non-IC 8lb boost, any warning signs?
 

Hi guys, I am thinking of getting into the Miata scene after many years of wanting to. Have my eyes on a 99 Miata 1.8L with a BRP MP62 Supercharger running approx. 8lb of boost and 93 octane based on what the owner has said. Non intercooled, stock internals, stock injectors. Has several mods such as CAI, full catless headers, stock cat, full exhaust, etc. ECU management done via a Jackson Racing Supercard.

I test drove the vehicle and it seems to run well. I did not hear any pinging or anything of that nature, and the power it makes is fantastic. However based on my limited research it is my understanding that this SC only comes with a kit that provides either 6lb or 10lb of boost and that the stock injectors can only handle around 6lb. I also test drove an 01 with a Kenne Bell SC running 6lb of boost and the 99 felt MUCH faster, the difference between the two was night and day. While I don't know these cars well enough to say for certain, I was thinking that it probably is running the claimed 8psi or more based on the vast power difference between the two, although again I could be completely off base with my limited knowledge.

Should there be any cause for concern? I am wondering if this would be a safe buy and if there is any reason to believe that this setup is improper and could potentially be running lean or have been abused in some way. The supercharger has supposedly only been on the car for approximately 5k miles. I am just a bit worried that it is being ran with too much boost on stock injectors and no intercooler and if I should be worried or not...

Any signs I should be looking for? Is this sort of setup and amount of boost safe to run on stock injectors with no intercooler present? I am intoxicated by the amount of power the car has, but I don't want my first Miata to turn out to be a lemon or one that was given more boost than it should for an extended period of time. I want to make sure that the way it is currently set up is safe and reliable and that there isn't any potential of damage being done. Thanks for the help in advance!



P.S. - I also noticed a significant amount of rust on the suspension components such as the control arms and accompanying hardware. The chassis itself seems to be rust free though. Wondering if this is also something to be wary of. It is pretty darn low too, has some pretty agressive lowering springs on it along with KYB AGX shocks. He says that he just recently bought the car and does not know what brand springs are on it, says that all of the mods were done before he bought it. He claims to be an autocrosser but says he never autocrossed this one due to it not having an LSD or welded diff. Any help is greatly appreciated

Lack of an IC + powercards are enough warning signs... But, it’s at the limit of what the powercards can do realistically.

On a ‘99 that’s been in a rust belt climate for it’s life I’d want to look really hard at the frame rail area located in front of the front wheel well liners. The rust starts inside the rails and you won’t know it until the bubbling starts which is already too late. You didn’t mention location.

So is that in fact too much boost to be running without an IC then? The guy hasn't had the car long but based on his comments I am assuming he drives it hard, which is indeed a bit worrisome. I did not notice any engine troubles at all aside for the idle dipping a bit low when at stoplights... the vehicle stalled out on one occasion because of it. Not sure what that means, any idea?

The vehicle is located in MD, although he claims it has been garage kept through most of its life. We do have some pretty bad winters here though, so that is definitely something I will look for. The top has a couple rips in it that are patched up with gorilla tape, so that's going to be another added expense when buying it. I will likely just get a hard top and remove the soft top completely.

So you mean the area right in front of the front tires, like behind the front bumper? I plan to go see it once more and get it up on jacks this time, so i'll definitely be sure to take a close look underneath.

Please let me know what you think though as far as the SC setup and engine goes, I'd like to know how big of a risk I may be taking buying it, if any. The guy claims that with this SC it can be ran at 8lb without an IC without issue. Either way, if I were to get it the first thing I would do is put an intercooler on it. I am still very interested in getting it and would treat it right if I do, just want to be sure that i'm not getting one with existing engine issues.

It already looks as if there will be quite a few things that will need to be done such as the top, intercooler, passing inspection with the full header & 2nd O2 not being hooked up, and who knows what else. I also noticed a very minor shimmy when driving at speed, could just need the tires rebalanced or could be a worn suspension part such as a shock mount, hard to say. I dont necessarily mind these things if the engine is ok, as it was an absolute blast to drive and is the fastest car I have ever driven, so it is damn tempting...

I'd specifically like to know if 8lb was an option out of the box for the MP62 as I have a feeling that it may be running ar 10lb of boost instead of 8, but that's admittedly just a hunch. It is my understanding that it should only be able to do either 6lb or 10lb out of the box with the included hardware. Based on what i've been told there has not been additional pullies or anything added. Is there any reason to believe that it may be running at 10lb vs 8?

My apologies for the long winded response, hope i'm not rambling on too much. It's just a big purchase for me and I want to be sure I make the right decision.

I originally had the BRP kit you have in my 2000 for a couple years, with the exact same powercard. I added the TDR intercooler. The stalling symptoms are well known and get worse after adding an IC. You can fix some of it with a 2nd throttle body + MS ecu + remote IACV + some tuning. Well known issues that some of us fixed by selling the MP62 and going turbo.

Re, the rust... The parts of the "frame" forward of the front subframe that you can't see unless you remove the wheel well liners. I guess technically it's part of the "Core Support". From experience, if I saw this I'd walk away from the car. You'll spend $2K+ to fix unless you're a great welder/fabricator.


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...82726ad2c6.jpg

Ah ok, thanks for that. I can live with the stalling I'm sure. Small sacrifice for nice power. I will definitely check behind the wheel liners. I still need to know if the 8lb of boost is too high for this setup tho without an intercooler and if there is any danger to the motor with that type of setup.

I got some extra undercarriage pics from the seller by the way, here they are. Looks like one of the rear control arms is badly rusted and likely needs replaced. That very well could be the source of that shimmy I felt. The rest looks like surface rust to me, but I am no expert. Let me know what you guys think of these.

And here's two more...

haaaaard pass. unless you are getting it for free.

Lol why's that?

Because its a giant tub of rusty junk with an old supercharger setup on band aids that no one here would pay any decent amount of money for. Unless they were crazy

You would sacrifice a lot for no reason whatsoever. You have much learning to do. Car is junk

Wow is that a rusty heap.

You are probably right... I have just started researching these in detail. Thanks for the heads up, I will likely not buy this. I could replace rusty suspension parts, but it's my understanding that as long as the frame and chassis isn't rusted then it's ok. Is that not the case?

But the most helpful and ass saving heads up of all came from the other Miata forum where someone actually informed me that 8psi on supercards without an IC is only safe when running both supercards that adjust both fuel and engine timing, something this car doesn't have. This one only has the fuel card, so thank godd for the heads up on that one, I will definitely not be getting it due to that.

You're probably right though, I am sure I have a lot to learn, but that's why I am here. I think the main point of these forums is to help each other learn about these cars. If I have a lot to learn then please school me if you don't mind. If there are any specific points you could point out for me that would help i'd appreciate it. Don't just hate on me because I am a noob, we were all noobs at one point. It sometimes takes a helping hand to learn.

I'd maybe pay $1500 for it.

... looks like i'm getting trolled. Thanks for the help.

I also legitimately would not pay more than 1500 for that car. probably not even that

Sure, they're way more smart about superchargers... BTW, the guy who told you all that is likely on a 1.6 using 1.8 injectors. Likely a MP45 not the same thing.

BTW, to answer the question you posed over there...

NA = 1st gen
NB = 2nd gen
NB1 = 2nd gen, 1st iteration
NB2 = 2nd gen, 2nd iteration


Troll...

Thanks for the heads up. From what I've been told, the previous owner from before had a boost gauge on it that was reading between 8 to 10psi, so it may actually be running as much as 10psi. He also says that it only has the one supercard that adjusts the fuel mixture and that the timing has not been adjusted. Does anyone know whether or not it's safe to run 10psi with that current setup without the intercooler?

but yeah, I think it is safe to assume that the car is worth more than 1500... some suspension component rust isn't going to devalue it that much. The SC alone is worth more than that. Lets come back down to planet earth here.

I promise you we're not trolling.

That setup under the best of conditions doesn't satisfy our requirements to call it "Safe" in the first place. It satisfies Miata.net, and i'm glad that they're telling you the answers to your questions that you want to hear, but it doesn't satisfy ours, and just because you're not getting the answers that you want to hear, here, doesn't mean that we're trolling. I mean really... 10psi on a hotside MP62 on stock injectors with nothing "controlling" timing in any way, non-intercooled?

You're already defending and telling us that our input on a car that you don't own, but are considering buying, is incorrect. Sounds like you've made up your mind. I hope the car treats you well. :)

I think it's worth $1500 because i think i could maybe make $1000-$1500 after spending a lot of time and effort parting it out.

WAIT!!

Is he saying that we're trolling him?

I thought he meant the seller was trolling him.

Power cards are worthless. The car does not have a wide-band oxygen sensor so you don't know what air fuel ratio it's actually running. There is no timing control so detonation is eminent. There is no intercooler so detonation is imminent. It's a Supercharger so it makes a lot more heat at lower boost than a Turbocharger would because it's far less efficient so there's detonation. It's running the stock ECU and needs to have $1,000 put into a standalone ECU so that devalues the car significantly. Anybody who's built a setup like that has not got any regard for proper engineering of a boosted setup and as you have noted he was beating on the car pretty hard so it's certainly not in good shape therefore another demerit. Agx shocks are some of the worst shocks you can put on a Miata for either performance or daily driving so that's something else that's got to be fixed. You need to buy real injectors so that's something else that needs to have money spent on it. Another demerit.

You say the car is fast. I understand that it may be fast to you but the car is actually not very fast. The car is probably only putting down around 170-180 wheel horsepower. Did you say you are in Northern Virginia? We have members in that area that you could meet up with and ride in a properly sorted out car that actually makes decent power.

We aren't going to the effort to tell you all of these things about your purchase because we don't want you to have a good time. We're telling you these things because we honestly believe them and have seen how badly things can go for people over the last 10 or 15 years. We are not new to this platform and we can help you if you let us. There is a better way. Come with me if you want to live.

You asked in your title of this thread if there are any warning signs. The answer is yes. Yes, there are several. And they are not trivial.

I'm permanently banning this waste of air if he really thinks we're trolling him.

We have quality standards to maintain around here.

You mentioned the car located in MD so figuring you must be somewhat close an easy CL search shows a few turbo cars to look at.

Candidate [turbo]: 2002 Mazda Miata Turbo, 6 speed with LSD - $5999

Candidate [non-turbo]: 1995 Mazda Miata M-Edition Merlot Low Miles - $7500

Candidate [turbo]: Turbo Miata for sale or trade best offer 300HP

Candidate [turbo]: TURBO Miata 73k miles with hardtop - $8950

I'm out...

Damn it, stop Banning people. We have a great opportunity for this to be a teaching moment. We don't want to make more people go to CR or mnet screw up when we have the ability to help them. Especially when they're listening. We are the premier resource on the web.

You're a troll :fael:

Pro / Con List for those who don't read well:

Rust = Bad
Old / Used Super Charger = Bad
Old Kit only on the car for 5k = Bad / BS
No IC = Bad
Stock injectors, engine, etc on boosted car = Bad
Powercard / poor tuning = Bad

VS

Boosted / slightly faster than stock = Good


I have a BRP and I love it. Turbos are better (probably cheaper) and there are much better tuning options now. Not to mention when i hear someone say a mod like that is only a few thousand miles old it sounds like BS or they couldn't fix the issues with it.

I didn't mean it like that, I wasn't trying to make it sound like I wasn't believing what you guys are saying, nor do I have answers that i want to hear. I am not emotionally attached to the car or anything like that. I am most definitely listening and taking everything in. I was mainly referring to the 1500 dollar comment as that seemed really low even for a Miata that isn't supercharged, although I am no expert so I don't really have any kind of credentials to say whether it's accorate or not. My apologies if it sounded like that, it just didn't seem like a serious post at first. Am just looking for accurate info is all.

I definitely haven't made up my mind yet. I am taking the information seriously and am definitely leaning towards not making the purchase as there are indeed many warning signs it seems. I absolutely appreciate all of the info and am very eager to learn as these are my dream cars and I really want to own a properly done Miata one day. I would love to take a ride in a proper built Miata one of these days, maybe I will. I am located in Southern MD.

The guy is asking for 5300 for the car by the way. With all the issues and such it sounds like it's not worth it. I have a budget of around 6k and am trying to find a good SC Miata that's done right and has most of what I need for around that price. Not sure if that is realistic to expect that or not. If not then I will likely start saving so I can one day own my dream Miata, one that is fast and handles well but also good and reliable as it will need to last me a while.

After hearing the way that BRP MP62 & Borla sounds and feels, that's most definitely the combo I'll be looking for. Actually, I don't think the owner knows whether it's actually a BRP or Moss as I think Moss bought out BRP at one point didn't they? And thanks Sixshooter, I am most definitely here to learn.

Which side of the bay southern MD? My cousin has a mostly stock 03 he's been trying to sell if you'd rather build it yourself.

On the West side, over by the 301 bridge. I don't really have the time or mechanical knowhow to build it myself unfortunately which is why I am mainly looking for one that is mostly done. I can add a few things here and there as needed but my time, budget and knowhow only really allows me to buy one that has most of what I want done already. A stock one just doesn't have the power or driveability that i'm looking for, I want something with some oomph.

It may be tough to find a really good one with all the stuff I want for 6k, but I don't really need anything too crazy thats running a huge amount of boost, just a nice early 2nd gen with the factory ground effects that's been done right with a good reliable SC setup and a decent suspension that isn't slammed to the ground. Some of the smaller supporting stuff I can add later if needed.

Here in CA you can get a mint NB for 5 grand. I'm talking under 100k, all maint done, cherry car. You can also get a trashed but not destroyed NB for 2k-2500. No rust anywhere, just abused and not maintained. Which would STILL be better than a car with half it's body and parts rusted AND an ancient supercharger setup running on bandaid fueling and timing solutions from the 1980's that most likely trashed the engine worse than the 2k car I just described.

So no, I'm not trolling you. Trust me, you'll thank us later when you realize what a heap you avoided. You'd end up dumping about as much as asking price just to get it back to "decent" condition. Just look through the build threads if you don't belive me.

Lol thanks, you guys probably did save me from making a big mistake. I figured I would habe to spend 2 to 3 grand just on the basic stuff, and that's just what it would have needed to get it thru inspection and tagged. I am really glad I came here before plunking down the money for that car, which I admittedly almsot did because of how much fun the thing was to drive. It was the first Miata I had ever driven not including the other one I drove earlier that day and made me realize what I had been missing all these years. After driving a slow one and then the BRP and hearing that oh so sweet SC whine, I definitely know that I won't be buying one without a Supercharger.

Really? Those are some damn good prices. Are you referring to a stock one or one with mods? Hopefully I can find a good one around here for a comparable price that has all the mods I want.

Edit..... double post

Just find one in good condition in a state known for not making rust buckets (CA, AZ, NM, NV, etc.) and ship it. I'd pay an extra $1,000 in shipping to get a car I'm not going to have to replace $1,000 or more in rusted parts on.

We don't salt our roads. And Georgia is pretty safe for rust also.

Gotcha, although I really prefer to see a car in person and test drive it before agreeing to buy, so that could be tough. I will likely just keep my eyes open for something around here. I don't mind driving a couple hours if need be, so hopefully something decent will pop up within a 100 mile radius or so.

By the way, for the purpose of due dilligence, is there anh way to determine if the SC is one of the older BRP models or one of the new MOSS ones just by looking at it? If so, here's a pic of the engine bay. Can anyone tell if this is an older or newer model? Would help in order to determine exactly which SC I would want on a future car.

P. S. - I also have a Dropbox link here to a video of the guy driving it, so maybe it could help identifying it by hearing the way it sounds

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k931lp656z...58568.3gp?dl=0

These old kits aren't something that we attach additional value to a car for. If anything, i'd value a car less with one of these old setups. High chance of motor damage, and if i'm spending the money i'd get by selling the supercharger to replace a shot motor, i'd just as soon buy a non-supercharged one to begin with, and add supercharger later if i desired. Seems easier, and a guarantee that it would be done right.

^what he said, plus the Roots type superchargers have a finite life and need to be rebuilt periodically. You need to examine the bearings and housings for contact and wear just like a turbo.

I don't have a definitive answer for you but:
The tensioner does not look like one from BRP - IIRC they were smaller diameter and had two idlers. Later BRP ones had autotensioners.

Ah ok, fair enuff. To be honest, car shopping nation wide just isn't something I am going to want to mess with, would rather not have to deal with shipping after a disaster I ran into with shipping a car a while back. That and I much prefer to be able to look at a car in person first before buying.

It may be difficult to find a rust free Miata locally, so expecting to find a perfect Miata with no rust at all and no wear may be a bit unrealistic. That being said, I think I would be perfectly happy to find one that is at least decent and that will require little work, that would be just fine for me. It seems unrealistic to expect to get a perfect one. If I am going to nitpick every little thing then I may never find one...

I also would much rather get one that is already supercharged as again i just don't have the money or knowhow to do that myself. It will be much cheaper to get one already built. I guess I will be passing on this one but will keep my eyes peeled. Is there going to be much of a difference in sound and power for the old BRP SC kit vs the new one? Cus I really loved the one on this car and may actually prefer this kit if there is a significant difference between the two.

You also need to be realistic about buying a car that has been modified by someone else. There is the potential to run into issues down the road and have no clue how to go about troubleshooting because someone else decided to cut corners, or something just fails of it's on accord.

You're going to need some degree of knowledge on how everything is supposed to work whether you build it yourself or not.

If you don't have the money to do it yourself, you don't have the money to deal with someone else's project, either.

This. x1000. You're best off just buying a well kept stock car and learning as you go with modifying.

I'd also like to add... if you don't have the knowledge or mechanical aptitude to "build" the systems that are on the project car (read: 9/10 times, some one elses nightmare) then you shouldn't be buying a car with those systems. While the miata is generally simple and is essentially built on late 90's technology... they become less simple when going off the normally aspirated path. You really need to get a non-boosted car, and learn the chassis, motor and electronics and then add power later. If you don't do this, you stand a chance of A) buying a headache B) replacing a motor in the first 12 months of ownership or C) ending up with a car on jackstands you don't drive.

Regarding buying a car and shipping it... you're essentially doing that right now. You sight wanting to see the car yourself, but it doesn't seem like you know the chassis enough to know what you're looking at (experience in general). You're taking photos from the buyer, posting them here asking questions and then making a decision. The only difference between doing that 2000 miles away from you instead of 20 or 200... is the one way plane ticket and the great stories that driving a car back across the country create. There is nothing wrong with what you're doing, honestly as long as you have thick skin, you're doing it on the right website. However, don't be confused that there is no difference in buying across the country then what you're doing now.

Do 6 more months of research on the car (NOT 6 MONTHS OF RESEARCH LOOKING FOR THE RIGHT CAR!!!) and do this once, do it right. You have the right budget to get either a decent stock car and a whole heap load of parts, or a really well sorted already built car. DO NOT WASTE YOUR MONEY ON SOME ONE ELSE'S DISASTER!!!

They actual kit doesnt really matter. They upgraded the tensioner to a manual one The tuning is done via power card which to my knowledge was not part of the BRP kits. Basically a simple bolt on (hotside) MP62 supercharger from any kit seller is the same other than tune and maybe tensioner. When you start adding intercoolers, and dual throttle bodies, and IAC controll valves and intakes the differences start to show, but even then tweaks will be made. I ditched the tuning, and pulleys that came with my BRP kit before even trying them out. (Unreasonable - maybe but if i left things alone i wouldnt have supercharged it either.) Just saying what kit it was doesnt matter as much as what remains.

I would value the car as the sum of the parts plus what's needed to make it right. At first glance it needs IC, dual throttle bodies (option?), injectors and ECU.Then there is tuning. All this assumes the shell is good and rust free. Those rockers and front frame rails will tell you what you need to know. Pay $100-$200 to have a competent mechanic look at it on a life and probe with screwdriver.

I would not not worry too much about the motor. Quick compression/leakdown will tell you all you need to know.

Look in the classifieds for deals on injectors and ECU's. I would try and stay new on both. Most prefer MS3 and Injector Dynamics injectors.

Great info, thanks for all of that. I am most certainly going to continue to learn and hope to buy the right car the first time around.

Hypothetically speaking, if I were to buy this car (after compression test & rust check of course), would I be able to get by with just adding an intercooler and adding the Jackson Racing Supercard that handles timing and have it be a safe and reliable daily driver? Where might I find some good info on how to properly do a compression/leakdown test?

I understand that the Supercards are not the ideal tuning solution and that I can do better, but I would likely be more than happy sacrificing a bit of power for the ease of use. I would likely prefer not to get in too deep with all the tuning and adjusting required with a more "advanced" setup. With that in mind, could I get by with such a setup and have it be reliable? How hard is it to locate one of those JR Timing Supercards these days?

Google or the instructions that come with the kit.

Just buy the car. You are obviously irrational in your infatuation for the particular unit. There's no point in bothering us with questions when you've already decided.

There's a couple of different ways to retard the timing using aftermarket interfaces that offer very coarse adjustments. None will be the proper way but none of this is the proper way.

What? OP is still looking at the same car? With so many good one from which to choose, if you just go south of the snow-belt?

OP, don't be so dumb.

If you *really* must buy a pre-modified miata, please just buy this one: https://baltimore.craigslist.org/cto...323321363.html

Its got a decent setup, it at least comes already megasquirted and has a true wide-band sensor, and will give a solid foundation moving forward. And its local to you. Most importantly, its not the total POS you came here wanting affirmation on.

Oh, wow! That's a nice looking car with good hardware at a good price. OP should definitely get that guy to take you around the block and see what is possible.

^^^This X10. Making major modifications to a car like adding forced induction serves only to decrease its resale value, not increase it. Except in very specific circumstances in which you can verify that the work has been done correctly by a competent person, either by knowing and trusting whoever is selling the car, or by being able to look closely at the work done and confirm yourself, the presence of an aftermarket FI setup makes the car worth less. Just read through the build threads on here and see all the shortcuts that can be taken, even when building with a well known/respected kit. I met a guy not too long ago with a Flyin Miata + megasquirt upgrade to his MSM...it had good hardware, and looked like the setup was legit...and then he mentioned he hadn't bothered to change the "stock tune" on the MS. So he's been auto-crossing a boosted car with an un-tuned base map. The car was super sharp, no obvious rust, looked slick as hell, but in my opinion it's worth significantly LESS than the same car stock.

Point is, buying a pre-modified vehicle is not usually a good idea in general, and even when it is a reasonable idea, the presence of aftermarket FI parts just makes it a more risky investment, which decreases the overall value.

This is a GREAT car! Ideal ECU and good turbo setup. Says motor refreshed too!

I most definitely haven't decided anything yet... am still weighing my options.

N dang... couldn't see the car in the link cus the listing has expired... dunno if it was sold or if the listing did expire.