80/20 Alignment
I have done some searching on here and now I would like your input before I call shops around here to get an alignment. I need an alignment because when I autocrossed my car a month ago, I started getting a pretty bad "clunk" everytime I turned hard and now my steering wheel does not sit straight when the car is actually going straight.
Here are the facts on my car: 1. 2004 Mazdaspeed that is 80% daily driver and 20% fun stuff 2. Completely stock suspension with 50k on it. 3. 17x7 wheels with 205/40/17 BFGoodrich Sport Comp 2s with 2k on them. I also scrubbed the outer edge of my front tires pretty well on that autocross, so I intend on rotating them to keep the wear even. Heres the alignment I was considering, I got it from FM. Let me know if anything needs changing. Caster +4.5 F Camber -1.0 F Toe 0 R Camber -1.5 R Toe 1/16 inch in total Also, from reading Emilios experiences, the "clunk" I am getting is the eccentric bolts. Do I need to replace those before/after an alignment? |
Eccentric bolts will need replaced prior to the alignment. Pulling out the old ones, and then reinstalling the new ones is going to FUBAR your alignment. Ask the shop to do it. When I did mine I had 2.5* of POSITIVE camber, and the toe was totally wiped out. I wouldn't want to drive to a shop in that condition.
As for your proposed specs..... Caster is fine. I prefer a bit more with a power steering car, but it's fine. Front camber isn't going to wear tires, I would move it up .1/.2 degrees out of personal preference. For street driving, I try to max out the front camber, the adjust the rear about .2/.3 above the front camber. 0 toe in the front is nice and responsive, and I prefer it as well in the rear, although the 1/16th in will help keep the rear end in check. My specs would be..... 0 toe front and rear. Max front camber, then add .3ish to get the rear camber. As much caster as you can get without loosing camber. Regardless, try to ask the shop if you can ballast the car while it's aligned. You can help the tech do the caster sweeps! ;) |
Originally Posted by Chilicharger665
(Post 957363)
Caster +4.5
F Camber -1.0 F Toe 0 R Camber -1.5 R Toe 1/16 inch in total As for caster, it's the least important aspect of the alignment. On an NA, we can never get much beyond 4 degreees anyway, so I just tell the shop "Give me as much positive camber as possible without sacrificing camber." NBs are usually a bit better in this regard. Any idea what your previous alignment was? |
Originally Posted by Chilicharger665
(Post 957363)
I have done some searching on here and now I would like your input before I call shops around here to get an alignment. I need an alignment because when I autocrossed my car a month ago, I started getting a pretty bad "clunk" everytime I turned hard and now my steering wheel does not sit straight when the car is actually going straight.
Here are the facts on my car: 1. 2004 Mazdaspeed that is 80% daily driver and 20% fun stuff 2. Completely stock suspension with 50k on it. 3. 17x7 wheels with 205/40/17 BFGoodrich Sport Comp 2s with 2k on them. I also scrubbed the outer edge of my front tires pretty well on that autocross, so I intend on rotating them to keep the wear even. Heres the alignment I was considering, I got it from FM. Let me know if anything needs changing. Caster +4.5 F Camber -1.0 F Toe 0 R Camber -1.5 R Toe 1/16 inch in total Also, from reading Emilios experiences, the "clunk" I am getting is the eccentric bolts. Do I need to replace those before/after an alignment? I'd flip the F/R camber numbers and keep toe at 0. |
Since this is a stock suspension car.
Max out the front camber, then make it even to the size that has the least. Max out the caster until it starts to lower the camber and make it even. Zero toe. Back camber 0.5 more negative than what you got at the front, 1/32 toe in. Adjust rear toe for driving style/balance. As long as you drive somewhat aggressively all the time you wont notice un-even wear with such little camber, though since you're only going to end up with around 1.5* in the front you're still going to nuke the outside shoulders at auto-x. The clunk and wheel not straight might also be a tie rod end. I would check for that before going in for the alignment. |
Ok everyone thanks for the replies. To tackle this in order it seems I need to get some eccentric bolts first, so I might as well forget about the alignment for now?
1. Where should I get the eccentrics? 2. How hard is it and what tools will I need? 3. Does the car need to be fully in the air or can I do one corner at a time? I am brand new at working on cars, but It is my ambition to learn, so would it be better to do it myself or get a shop to do so? I live in the middle of nowhere so there aren't performance shops for at least 100 miles. |
Unless you want to do a string alignment to "close enough" in your driveway after installing the eccentrics they need to be done at the shop doing the alignment.
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Originally Posted by Chilicharger665
(Post 957544)
Ok everyone thanks for the replies. To tackle this in order it seems I need to get some eccentric bolts first, so I might as well forget about the alignment for now?
1. Where should I get the eccentrics? 2. How hard is it and what tools will I need? 3. Does the car need to be fully in the air or can I do one corner at a time? I am brand new at working on cars, but It is my ambition to learn, so would it be better to do it myself or get a shop to do so? I live in the middle of nowhere so there aren't performance shops for at least 100 miles. You can do one corner at a time. Only remove 1 bolt at time from the lower control arm. Disconnecting the sway, or fully raising one axles at a time would be easiest (sans owning a lift). IIRC, the 949 replacements will use a 19mm (could be 17mm) bolt and nut. You'll want an open ended wrench, and a socket wrench, preferably long with 1/2 for leverage. Expect the OEM bolts to be fairly tight. The OEM are 14 and 17 IIRC. A 1/2 drive ratchet and sockets from harbor freight or sears are more than capable. FWIW: You don't need a "performance" shop to do it. Anyone with an alignment machine will have the knowledge to: Remove bolts. Reinstall new bolts. Align the car. Just take it to a standard tire/repair shop, tell them what you want, and give them your specs. Give them plenty of time to do it (you're asking for something above and beyond, remember). I find a box of a dozen store bought donuts can get you on their good side at most shops. Remember, YOU are asking for a favor. They could charge you $100 a bolt to install or refuse to put them in. Keep them in the OE packaging, be nice, give them plenty of time, and bring a snack. It's worked for me from both sides of the counter. ;) EDIT: As I said before, your alignment will be wiped out after you replace the bolts. Unless you can get the toe close at home, do it at a shop. |
I had a long reply typed out on my iphone and then when I submitted it, the damn site logged me out! So TL;DR now
1. I called. No one around here knows what eccentric bolts or control arms are, so I will install these myself. 2. I have a 38pc Kobalt Xtreme Access tool kit that has open-end wrenches and sockets up to 19 mm so I should be good on that end. 3. An alignment shop 4 blocks from my house agreed to align it how I wanted for $89. Driving 4 blocks should be plenty safe, even on a FUBAR alignment. |
Indeed- there's no need to freak out about installing new adjuster bolts, or even new control arms or tie-rods.
Just mark where the old adjusters were, put the new ones in in the same orientation, and you will be fine. You tires aren't going to explode just from driving a few miles to get to the alignment shop no matter how out-of-whack it is. |
Dont be scared to run bigger camber numbers, Toe/lack of camber is what kills tires on sporty cars not camber. If you autox I'd shoot for low 2's in camber. Those MS miatas respond very well to ebay coilovers and 15" wheels...
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I would like to run a lot of camber but isnt the level of camber you can get related to ride height? Its a stock suspension 04 MSM.
On an unrelated note, I went and bought some jackstands, a creeper, oil drain pan, and some oil. I already had the filter I needed. So I changed my oil for the first time so I feel proud! Lol time for build thread?? ;) I also rotated my tires and cleaned my air filter. |
Yes, max camber (and all other alignment figures) are affected by ride height. I've never aligned an MSM, but I'd be surprised if it could hit 2* of camber in the front.
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Its real easy, the MSM actually rides softer on higher rate springs.
Order this Mazda Miata 90 94 coilover lowering Spring Kit Silver | eBay and this for the rear Miata Suspension read this The Quintessential Ebay Coilover Thread - MX-5 Miata Forum |
I want XIDAs, or at least Vmaxxs. I dont want ebay coilovers.
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less talk, more do.
should I quote Yoda here? |
I changed my oil and cleaned my air filter yesterday. Eccentric bolts have been ordered, so I kind of have to wait for them to come in.
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3 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by Chilicharger665
(Post 957960)
I want XIDAs, or at least Vmaxxs. I dont want ebay coilovers.
You https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1355502706 Me winning https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1355502805 I'm not just an ethug, I really could kill you https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1355502805 |
Lol
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I loled as well. Well hold up on the e thuggery and wait for me to install my eccentric bolts and then my life shall be forfeit, ok?
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Well my alignment bolts FINALLY came in so I hope to get started on this project tomorrow.
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Brainie's point is a good one. Emilio always recommends more negative camber in front than in the rear. Leafy's procedure is sound but you want to end up with less neg camber in back than in front.
Snippet from 949's alignment page: SuperMiata DD Alignment >=12" front ride height (measured hub center to fender) >=4.5" front ride height measured at forward most straight section of pinch weld with 205/50/15 or 225/45/15 tires Front camber: -2° (or as close as you can get to it) Caster: >4° Front total toe: 0 Rear camber : -1.8° Rear total toe: 0 SuperMiata Race Alignment <=12.0" 3.75~ 4.25" front ride height measured at forward most straight section of pinch weld with 205/50/15 or 225/45/15 tires Front camber: -3° (or as close as you can get to it) Caster: >+4.5° or max available once you reach camber targets Front total toe: 0 Rear camber : -2.6° Rear total toe: 0 |
What's the reason for less rear camber?
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Originally Posted by wannafbody
(Post 969458)
What's the reason for less rear camber?
The simple fact is, the front needs more compensation than the back in Miatas. But, more static negative camber up front makes the car a little less stable on bumpy roads, so the typical nancy-boy alignment compromises maximum cornering for stability. But it's your choice; it's not an iCar. |
Well you wouldnt want the tire perfectly flat to the road even if the suspension could do that due to the tire likely wanting a different amount of camber for maximum grip and based on carcase flex. And example of the first have, from the Milken tire test data I have I know a Hooiser R25A, under the loading it would typically see on the front outside wheel of our formula car, makes the most grip when it is cambered 1.5* towards the inside of the turn. I also know that the comparable goodyear slick in the same situation requires a different amount of camber for maximum grip and that in other loading situations and other locations (such as the inside front, outside rear, inside rear) the optimal camber is different.
But that is quite off topic and tire testing data that goes that in depth is WAY beyond the scope of anything any of us are interested in. |
I had to get an quick alignment for a track day this weekend and after looking at the printout I was dumbfounded that they considered a good alignment as positive camber and 6-7 degrees of caster. The guy offered to do it the way I wanted so now I will tell him 4.5 caster, as much front camber as possible and matched side-to-side, rear camber .5 degree less than the fronts and matched as well. Zero toe in front and rear.
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Jake's beard is legit as fuck. I recommend all of you show some respect to the man.
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If you aren't running the Xida suspension setup is the 949 race alignment still recommended for a track car?
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Yes.
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Slight thread change, but still related.
On my 01 (that I picked up as a track car based on this forums advice) I have 15x8 PF01's with 205/50 RE11's. The cars suspension is otherwise stock and the alignment I am going to request is: -1.5 front camber as much front caster without affecting camber 0 front toe -1.2 rear camber 0 rear toe The problem now is that I need to replace the eccentric bolts because, once again, my steering wheel is all crooked. I have the bolts ready to go, but now I need some pointers on the process. I've pieced together advice from searches and please correct me if I am wrong. 1. Remove eccentric bolts one at a time, marking their position, while supporting the control arm with a jack in a ?? position. 2. Torque the eccentric bolt to 150+ ft lbs or as tight as possible 3. Go get an alignment ASAP. So, if I do this install correctly and go get the alignment, should I again put the car in the air and torque them down myself? |
Alaignment shop should tq them fine.
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So I am still left with one question then. Does the car need to be in the air or not to do this?
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Needs to be in natural compression not drooping.
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Alingment shop will end up tightening them under full droop when they alaign the car. Just throw the bolts in and take it to the shop.
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I will try and convince them to just install the new bolts for me. You wouldn't believe how long it took me to convince them to even do a custom alignment for me in the first place! I'm going to take some advice from earlier in the thread and bring a box of donuts, along with those new eccentrics.;)
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