Best compromise suspension?
 

I am currently running my stock 91 suspension (all original!) with a couple of the simple braces and front/rear FM sways. I also have a set of four or five year old Victoracers that I bought from a friend and have tracked last season and this season. Given my old age and lack of innate driving skill, the car has done extremely well. But now that I am changing classes and racing with more serious cars and drivers, I really need a suspension. I also have this problem of having to wait until the car settles after an elevation change to turn in otherwise I spin out. And I keep doing that in the same spot at the end of a fast straightaway and thats bad.

I like the stock blown suspension in that I can feel exactly where the car is at any given moment, which is good for a beginning driver, and the r compounds keep me from being an obstruction, but I think I am ready to go fast.

What suspension will give me wife-friendly compliance on the street and great communication at the track, with reliability over time? I like the idea of damping control but I don't want a big drop in ride height, I deal with that enough with my other car. I plan to keep this car forever and I finally have income to afford what I want. Thanks for any advice.

I would do a set of KYB AGX adjustable shocks and Tein S.Tech coilovers. You can quickly change the shock setting with the turn of a dial, and the S.Tech's are a very minimal decrease in height (.75 in rear, 1.1 in front). They're not too stiff at all.

You left the door wide open here. What's the budget? Hard to beat the Tein Flex for ride height adjustability, rides slightly firmer than factory at the lowest settings (wife will definitely approve) but still good track-ability when set firm. I didn't want to drop too much due to my roads (gravel at home) so this was an issue for me.

For less money than the Flex, the Illumina's and FM springs is a similar drop as the AGX/springs above.

AGX's are, at best, mediocre stock replacements.

Tokico Illuminas (<i>not</i>) blues) are in the same price range and Shaikh @ FatCat has had good things to say about them. They are also adjustable.

For springs, Flyin' Miata's springs are well-matched and are reputed to be a very good all-around choice.

On the cheap.

Step 1. Illuminas or Koni yellows for a significant mid level upgrade. Of the two the Illuminas would likely ride better for the wife. Find someone selling their used FM springs or a set of Ground Control sleeves with Eibachs. Good trackable set up that will get you far better performance than those old stockers. Whatever shocks you get buy new bump stops. Fatcat or similar. The stock stops really limit suspension travel.

Step 2. Find a junk yard 99 or newer and take the shock shock mounts. Get an RB hollow front sway bar and keep the stock rear. The newer shock mounts will give you a little better suspension travel and the Racing Beat hollow bar + stock rear is a popular and well balanced set up.

Not cheap? If you want to spend $1000 - $2000 there are a ton of options obviously. Call Fatcat. They'll build you a custom set up to do exactly what you want. FM, Goodwin and many more all have well sorted systems, can answer questions and get you the right set up for your needs.

The KYB's aren't great shocks. They are adjustable. I replaced my stockers with them + GC coil overs. Worked fine until I went turbo. Stock power at the track with R-comps they were OK. Turbo they simply overpowered them. Replaced them with Tein RA's. I've still got the AGX's with the GC sleeves and springs if you are interested. Cheaper set up that's a significant improvement over stock but not in the same class as the Illuminas or Koni Yellows.

There's a good chance I'll have my FM springs (2006) up for sale after this weekend.

My sig other has no complaints on the ride of my '91 with Tein Flex.

I haven't sampled anything from FCM, but would like to.

I love my Tein Flex's. So smooth, I have them set right in the middle both ride height and stiffness wise. Rides a bunch better than the wife's cooper S. I have a '92 with only the factory bracing, original suspension pieces/rubber. Racing Beat front sway bar, no rear bar. I can hit major potholes and don't get any significant cowl shake.

Before the Flex's I had racing beat street springs with kyb agx's and then illuminas. I like the illuminas better, but the RB springs were junk.

You're a beginning driver, but you're serious enough to be racing on track in a defined class? You've got blown original shocks but running on R-comps? And you're turboed? I'm not sure what to make of all that but it sounds like your car sucks to drive on track. What exactly do you plan to do with the car? HPDEs, time trials, etc? Serious track use is going to eliminate a certain amount of the car's wifeability.

Regardless of what suspension you have, it's a good idea to let the car settle before you make any drastic inputs. ;) All drivers deal with this. The problem is, the stock suspension takes forever and a day to settle even when the shocks aren't blown. With my current suspension and tires I can stay flat out at VIR all the way from turn 5 through the top of the uphill esses at about 100 mph (stock power, mind you). However, riding in a car with a much better chassis than mine (RX-8) I realized that my car still doesn't settle through transitions as quickly as I'd like. If I was more serious about tracking it, I'd have 700# or stiffer front springs, more rear spring, and definitely some better shocks. Which brings us to...

And I'd like a toilet made out of solid gold, but it's just not in the cards. Stiffer springs are pretty much a necessity for track, but can get unpleasant on bumpy roads. I find 450/300 rates to be streetable enough and trackable enough with stock power and RS2s. Roads in NoVA are pretty smooth and minor bumps don't annoy me, plus my wife doesn't ride in the car enough for her bitching to bother me. :D I'd like to get a ride in a 700/450-ish sprung car around here to see what it's like, but then I'd have to upgrade my front shocks too. You might want to stick with FM springs, but realize they are not that stiff either. Or go up to something like 450/300 depending on your roads and wife. With reasonable damping control the ride is actually pretty good by my standards.

If I had enough spare dough to get a really nice suspension, I would probably start by calling up Shaikh at FCM and see what he recommends based on my intended use.

Spend the money...call Shaikh [/thread]

Screw the intermediate steps, I'm on my 3rd setup I hate, and could have bought some badass coilovers by now. I'm to the point of making my own parts to rectify the shortcomings of off-the-shelf springs and shock combos.

My head is spinning. Thanks everyone for the great advice. I know my current setup is crap, but I was also trying to buy an nsx these past many years. I can buy the Teins at a nice discount, but am I still better off buying a custom setup when it seems like my needs (occasional track weekend and great street car) should be reasonably common?

Illumina's or R package Bilstein's on FM springs. I'm on Fm springs and Bilstein's and like it more than factory suspension by a long shot on the street. I'm sure it would be great on the track as well.

As for class, Its just different groups at the track days, nothing official at all, but I found myself with mostly race prepped hondas, sti's and evos this year. I actually followed a modified evo for a lap, a testiment to r compounds. The car is amazingly neutral. The only really problem I had was when the tires heated up and gained pressure. Keeping them at 25psi felt great. I also had to start topping out at 90mph instead of 98 because I would lose brakes over time, but I just ordered all of the 1.8 stuff and corrado adapters.

I like my Tein Flex with 9/6 rates. The car sits only a hair lower than stock (at the high end of the height adjustment) as I didn't want to compromise ground clearance for daily use. I have the EDFC controller on mine as well (electronic damping force controller), which is a huge timesaver in trying different settings on the shocks. I've settled on having the fronts 2 settings softer than the rears for daily use. I keep that delta between front / rear and then go overall softer or firmer depending on the road.

I still have the stock sways.

These have been sitting on my shelf, can anyone identify them? They are older. The short ones are 9 inches tall and the tall ones are 10.25 inches tall.

Attachment 204351

Also, does anyone know the spring rates of the springs that come with the illuminas as part of a package from Tokico?

look like stock springs. use the 100lbs weight method to determine rates.

FCM

I have flex on my car and I'm pretty happy with them, and agree with Tim. Nice and smooth, and stiff enough for the track.

If your going to go with a shock and spring combo, be aware that pretty much every aftermarket spring (aside from coilover springs) are progressive rate. Flyin Miata are the only linear rate springs that I was ever able to find for the Miata. That being said, FM spings on Tokico Illuminas with proper sway bars makes a great setup that can be easily driven. Don't waste your money on AGX's. I have them on my 91 and the valving on them is pretty bad IMO. However, the Tokico and FM may be a little soft for track days with R-comps, however if your running stock suspension on R-comps and are happy with that, than you will probably love Tokico and FM combo.

Quinn, If all you could find was progressive you weren't looking too hard. Eibach, Bilstein, Tein and many other manufacturers along with most of the Miata oriented part suppliers have linear rate springs. It is generally the cheaper all in one prefabbed sets that have progressive. Tein s-tech, bilstein ps9, etc.

Yes, springs for their coilover sleeves are linear. Most manufacturer's that sell a lowering spring for vehicle specific shocks are progressive. I think Suspension Techniques was the only other linear, but when I talked to them on the phone the guy couldn't tell me spring rates. Tein S-Techs are progressive springs, plus the spring rates are barely higher than stock.

Would I need new bumpstops or perches with the tein coilovers?

The only stupid question is the one I don't ask and then have to pay for separate shipping.

I see a lot of post leaning toward the tein flex..... any comment on the tein basic??

Tein flex come with perches and stops. Tein basic isn't popular due to the lack of adjustability.

Late to the party here, but I'll just +1 a couple of things.

1- AGXs are, in fact, garbage. Adequate on stock springs, and nothing more.

2- FM Springs are pretty good, but if I had it to do over again, I'd have gone stiffer. I was worried about putting too much spring on the car since it's my DD, but until I actually tried it myself, I didn't appreciate how good shocks will tame a stiff spring. With FCM-valved Bilsteins and bump stops with FM springs, my car is actually softer (in terms of ride comfort) than it was on stock or AGX shocks and stock springs & bumpstops.

3- The Tein Flexes are supposed to be pretty badass. Emilio at 949 has some degree of experience with them. Call him and chat.

Seriously, just talk to Shaik at Fat Cat Motorsports. That guy is amazing. He talked to me for two hours about all the variables in my setup, and the man /knows what he is talking about./ Period.

I'm going FM springs (when I can find some) and R package Bilsteins (when I can find some) with my FCM tops, then eventually a revalve and possibly some FCM coilovers in the future.

Talk to FCM. /thread

im probably gonna get flamed for this.......but does anyone have experience or knowledge of 4 inch springs on a miata? i think im going the 6 inch Hyperco for my project build, but i was wondering about my daily driver....if i could fit 4 inch Hyperco's on it.

You are destined for failure. I'm not aware of any commonly available coilover with a perch that will go up high enough on typical Miata shocks to have a 4" long spring even be touching the upper mount assuming you run a ride height where your tires don't rub everywhere. The car will almost be sitting on the bumpstops even when parked. You might as well save yourself some money by not running springs at all. Furthermore, the max rate Hyperco makes in 4" springs is 600 lb/in, not nearly a high enough rate for that short length. You'd run into coil bind issues if you didn't run out of shock travel first.

And why are you obsessed with what length springs you're going to use? Decide on rates first, and that will determine how short a spring and how low a ride height you can get away with. I think even the guys running 700# and higher front springs and 11" ride heights still use 6" length springs.

Coil bind and insufficient travel would be huge issues.

The eGay 5.5" springs are pushing it, and insufficient in my experience. I just ordered a full set of QA1s yesterday...in proper rates, and 7" length. I'll still be able to adjust down to 12"/12.5" with the 2.5" ID collars and my custom perches.

You will want the extra travel of "real" springs. +1 on picking rates first...then calculate loaded length from free length...and this will give you an idea where you'll sit. Adjustable collars make it even better.

I have the FM springs + Illuminas. It's great in that it feels better than stock on the street, and from what I hear it performs well on the track.

im not worried about the rates because the DD is just gonna be for show and cruising around the beach, not for performance. im only gonna boost it up to about 180hp and put deep dish rims on it and lower it as much as possible......CR.net style if you would say

im putting all my performance thoughts into my project build. either 15x9 6UL or some Volk Racing wheels involved also.

edit......so long story short....if i can find the right height.......i'll use whatever rate i need to for it to work for the DD. not worried about long trips or my butt going numb.

Well, with all the advices, I'd hate to throw my two-pence in the ring, but, here are my impressions.

You have the need for speed, my friend.
While FM Stage 1 setup is great (I've run it both on track and autox), it is by no means a competitive one.
The trend (at least with me) is to get better, and, I'm glad that you're restraining yourself from doing something stupid.

But, a great suspension is a great suspension.

You COULD get FM kit, and be happy with it, as it'll give you wife-friendly ride on the street, and decent times (and response) on the track and autox, but, it won't be the cat's ass like Ohlins or FCM stuff.

Speaking of responsiveness.
You simply don't realize how communicative a good suspension is. (Btw, feel free to read up on my suspension experiences, linked in my sig).

But, again, remember the old adage.
You can pay a lot once, or you can pay a lot more many times over.

Instead of trying several setups, spend your cash once on something good, and that is Ohlins (old favorite), AFCO (new kid), Tein (people like 'em, but have no personal experience), and FCM, the only custom solution of all of them, competitively priced.

FCM Variant 1 (single adjustables) will give you all the suppleness on the street, with performance to outcorner most anything out there (in much higher classes, with bigger rubber).
Get Shaikh's (FCM) coliover sleeves, and you'll be allset in terms of height adjustment as well.


And, it's kinda funny, but, speaking from personal experience, you just don't realize how different a league a better suspension is, despite you liking your current setup.

Find someone with FCM stuff on it, and ask for a ride. :D

BIG HUGE +1



I'm about to bolt in my 6th different suspension setup in less than a year next weekend. Want to know what it is? Stock Bilstein setup because all of my cheap cobbled together "solutions" were too harsh and unpredictable at the limit.

I'm only going to put in one more suspension setup after this one, and let's just say I'm saving up for it. I've already talked to Shaikh a few times, and I'm sure he's just as tired as I am trying to chase down why this setup is still on the bumpstops, or this one jacks down and gets twitchy in bumpy corners.

Previous tries all used the lower priced OTS shocks (AGX, KONI yellow), and all had springs that were the right rate for the weight, but too stiff for the shock. The only bonus was they were all cheap.

At least I've got install times down to 2.5hrs...of course 3hr avg times 6 (or 7 for "final" setup) doesn't make it cheap anymore when I consider what my time is worth.


Do it right....do it once.

Another vote for calling Shaikh at FatCat... I have the Variant 1 coilovers (550/350) and they're freakin awesome in every way. As for Tein Basics, don't even consider them, they're what I took off of my car and about the worst coilovers I've ever driven on, Tein should be ashamed for charging money for them.

Plus the cost of alignment every time the ride height changes...

I'm still leaning towards the Tein flex ($1600), but does anyone know anything about the new APEXI N1 EXV coilovers ($1100) or the KW V3's ($1600)?

1600=FCM revalve. Fuck the adjusters, they confuse the feeble human mind. Anyway, you can upgrade the FCMs later to external adjusters if you really want it.

fatcatmotorsports custom bilsteins sounds like your flavor

Tein Flex is what I am going with down the road.

Im saving up for those :bang: