Driving characteristics with Torsen 2 vs Torsen 1?
Hi everyone,
I recently switched from the 4:1 Torsen 1 over to a Torsen 2 for its shorter 4:3 ratio. In doing my research (correct me if Im wrong), I found that the Torsen 1 has stronger lockup characteristics all around than the Torsen 2, with a bias during acceleration. On the other hand, the Torsen 2 has a lock-up bias during deceleration. From a drivers standpoint - what does this mean? In my head, it seems like apart from the longer ratio, the torsen 1 would be better suited for performance due to a stronger lockup as well as a bias under throttle. I immediately think of a situation where you are mid/late corner, and by giving it throttle early, the torsen will allow you to exit a corner at a higher speed than you would without a torsen. On the other hand, with a torsen 2, would it be better suited towards a higher corner entry speed with heavy trailbreaking? Or would its lockup characteristics still be strong enough to drive the same way upon corner exit, regardless of its bias? Granted, I understand that Im probably not one of the fastest drivers out there, but it would be interesting to finally clarify the differences between the two for future purposes. After all, regardless of the differences, it all comes down to how they apply to our driving. |
This is probably wrong, but I'll throw in a thought. The stronger lock-up on acceleration might also cause a bit of additional understeer on corner exit, since the wheels going the same speed will try to keep the car in a straight line.
This is an interesting topic, I'd love to hear what someone who actually knows what they're talking about thinks on it. |
Originally Posted by krazykarl
(Post 1141412)
The stronger lock-up on acceleration might also cause a bit of additional understeer on corner exit, since the wheels going the same speed will try to keep the car in a straight line.
the type-ii can induce understeer at corner entry. rule of thumb: Type-ii for street driving, type-i for performance driving (autox, track) |
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 1141418)
And with that same logic: the type-ii can induce understeer at corner entry. rule of thumb: Type-ii for street driving, type-i for performance driving (autox, track)
But doesn't the Type-2 come on the newer cars like the S2000 and BRZ/FRS? Also, by that same logic, why does it seem like the Type-2 is more appealing to performance drivers when really, if it was for the shorter ratio, wouldn't simply swapping in a T-1 into a 4:3 open diff be the better thing to do? |
It's good to have this discussion; however, a Type 1 versus Type 2 (versus Type 3 versus Super Fuji) isn't going to be the reason why you're 5 seconds off of SM pace. Usually when you start going into the minutiae into the various diffs that came with the car, the answer of "Fuck it, put in an OS Giken" is usually the answer.
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Originally Posted by Dunning Kruger Affect
(Post 1141434)
It's good to have this discussion; however, a Type 1 versus Type 2 (versus Type 3 versus Super Fuji) isn't going to be the reason why you're 5 seconds off of SM pace. Usually when you start going into the minutiae into the various diffs that came with the car, the answer of "Fuck it, put in an OS Giken" is usually the answer.
I think that by knowing the differences in lockup characteristics between a T1 and T2 and how that applies to cornering, it would be extremely useful in helping a driver consciously adapt their driving style if they ever make a switch. That's exactly what happened in my case. I just swapped out a 4:1 T1 from a 95 to a 4:3 T2 from a 99. |
please stop saying lockup or I'll get all pedantic on your ass
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Originally Posted by itskrees
(Post 1141424)
Thats the logic that I pretty much figured..
But doesn't the Type-2 come on the newer cars like the S2000 and BRZ/FRS? Also, by that same logic, why does it seem like the Type-2 is more appealing to performance drivers when really, if it was for the shorter ratio, wouldn't simply swapping in a T-1 into a 4:3 open diff be the better thing to do? no one here really wants the 4.3 rear, everyone wants at least the 4.10 and in a lot of cases the 3.63. |
Originally Posted by DaveC
(Post 1141485)
please stop saying lockup or I'll get all pedantic on your ass
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There is no term because that kind of behavior doesn't exist with Torsen diffs.
They don't lock up (i.e. connect both axles solidly.) That's a concept that involves rotational speed. They do have a maximum torque bias, which means that the maximum torque delivered to either axle depends on the torque being delivered to the other axle. This is a concept that involves torque and is independent of speed. If, for example, the torque bias ratio is 2.5 and the passenger side axle can deliver only 100 ft.lb of torque (due to limited traction) then the driver side axle will never get more than 250 ft.lb of torque no matter how much is available through the drive shaft. Open diffs have a torque bias ratio of 1. Torsens don't lock up any more than open diffs do, they just have a higher maximum torque bias ratio. While I'm ranting, I have to admit that I don't understand how any Torsen, type 1 or type 2, could possibly tell the difference between accel and decel. Well, maybe a type 2 could be designed to, but why would it? And why would it be designed to have a higher bias ratio on deceleration than acceleration? Seems backwards, but I'm really just guessing here. Maybe someone can explain if I'm missing something. |
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 1141491)
no one here really wants the 4.3 rear, everyone wants at least the 4.10 and in a lot of cases the 3.63.
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And me. Anyone local is welcome to straight trade my 4.1 for their 4.3.
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Originally Posted by Dunning Kruger Affect
(Post 1141547)
I know of at least 3 people who want the 4.3 rear: the OP, Savington, and me. :party:
4.44 with OSG and narrow ratio dog 6sp would not hurt at all |
dual post
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LOL.
Get a Torsen. Get the one with the gear ratio that's better for you. A pro might be able to tell the difference between identically-geared Type 1 vs. Type 2 Torsens. You won't. And BTW, I hope you get your foot back on the throttle WAY before mid-corner. Maybe even left foot brake. |
The T1 has a bit more of the torsen push, and does a bit more of the torsen kick on quick lifts. 98% of people wont know which one is the car after driving it. The T2 is supposed to be stronger though.
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Originally Posted by Leafy
(Post 1141622)
The T1 has a bit more of the torsen push, and does a bit more of the torsen kick on quick lifts. 98% of people wont know which one is the car after driving it. The T2 is supposed to be stronger though.
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Originally Posted by Dunning Kruger Affect
(Post 1141434)
"Fuck it, put in an OS Giken" is usually the answer.
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Originally Posted by guttedmiata
(Post 1141694)
The discussion is still very relevant even if that is the answer because the OSG is available in a 1 way, 1.5 way, and 2 way configuration.
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I have never actually driven a 4.1 torsen ,but I love my t2 in my SSM 1.6 sc car. It beats the hell out of blowing up VLSDs :) We also have a t2 in the CSP car that I drive and it, I like it more for the acceleration (just looking at the other CSP cars that have T1s)
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I recently went 4.10 T1 to 4.30 T2. From what I've read, the T2 had the capability to be set up for significantly more torque bias than the T1, but no one spec'd that in any of the major applications, like the Miata, S2000, the LS1 F-Bodies, etc. which makes the two types that much closer in performance than they could theoretically be.
I don't autocross (yet) but I noticed that the car definitely felt different in the rear, smoother on throttle lift going into corners, easier to power out. I may have no idea what I'm talking about. The extra 5% power everywhere is awesome NA. Will probably hate it if I go turbo. |
I think youre confusing the T2 with the T2R.
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Sorry to bring this back and may be off topic here but I'm getting this feeling of ignorance on my part. Why no one use T2 with 4.1? Are they not compatible? Or no one likes doing this?
I had an open diff on my 95 and bought a used T2 diff to put my 4.1 gears on. That was like a year and a half ago, about 3k miles and ~8 autox's. Everything seems fine to me. |
Most (like me) just buy a used diff and put it on the car. The most commonly available used Torsens are the T1 that came on NAs with 4.1 gears and the T2 that came on NBs with 4.3 gears. There are other gearings that came on special versions, but they are harder to find and usually more expensive.
I've got a T1 on the Silver car (replaced a VLSD) and a T2 on the Red car (PO replaced an open diff). They work. Laptime improvements come from seat time. |
Factory T2s with the 4.1 are 96-97 and MSMs (with magic 28 spline axles), IIRC.
Hmmm, according to mnet, the NC's 4.1 is a Tochigi Fuji unit. |
I believe the 2003+ are all the stupid, silly, pointless, worthless, weak, "super" lsd units.
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Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 1146103)
I believe the 2003+ are all the stupid, silly, pointless, worthless, weak, "super" lsd units.
The 03+ togichifuckyomama diff might as well be a VLSD. |
fuckyommama
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This makes me curious what my 3.9 diff has. Don't actually know what it came out of. I never knew torsens would have different specs for accel and decel. Always thought it was just a bias regardless of direction.
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Originally Posted by TorqueZombie
(Post 1146127)
Always thought it was just a bias regardless of direction.
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