looking for advice, koni setup vs $$$
 

OK guys been searching around looking for a cheap koni setup with no luck as of this last week. Found a miata salvage shop today on CL with some used koni sports, with NA tophats, and racingbeat street springs. Question is: you you pay $450 for a used setup like that? I want to change out the springs later on the gc coils. I here people saying you can find a used set of konis with gf for 300 -600. Just haven't seen 'em. What so you guys think? R they work it. I don't know what the mileage is on them either.

no

ok what price would you pay for that setup? realisticly

Half of new price, NA upper mounts are junk, springs are junk.

From what Ive heard, the rebound of the Koni Yellows isnt well suited for the Miatas, which is why you dont see them used much. I think when people do use them, you pretty much have to keep them adjusted to "full soft", which is the lowest rebound setting to be well suited for the fixed bump setting.

Correct me if Im wrong.
I know theyre very popular in the Honda world, but they have very different suspension setups on their race cars.

thank hustler, good to know. Knew the na tops and springs are crap, just looking for the shocks mostly, plan to most likely get them rebuilt later on.

Boogie: from what I've been seeing through the forums though it looks like people choose the koni over toki's. I plan to use these for alot of spirited weekend driving and track days.

Tokicos are total garbage.

what's so bad about em?

I've researched a bit between those 2 and it seems like most prefer the koni over tokicos and it sounds like they've been track proven to be faster than tokicos.

Another thought I had was Bilstein HD's but they aren't adjustable right? but they can be revalved. Damn to many decisions!!!!

Whats so bad about racelands?

I would run revalved Bilsteins before Id run some shitty crosstalking wannabe performance shock like Tokicos or KYBs. Just keep the spring rates low and use swaybars to tune out the body roll.
Then when youre ready, make the leap to some racing coilovers and never look back. You will save money in the long run.

+1

That's a cool story bro, and I'ma let you finish, but: you're gonna have to be a little more specific than that.

I realize its not a high end shock. I've no illusions about where it sits in the suspension superiority chain. But if you're gonna knock em, I expect you to provide your reasoning.

I'd rather have racelands over Konis.

Did you look for the price of new Koni Sports? On Tirerack they are $130-$137 each, so paying $450 for a used set doesn't make sense.

Yep. And for the price I'd rather get a brand new set of billies from 949

Monotube > twin tube.

I've beat on my turbo car for a year now down to 5 seconds under the spec miata record on a rough track using koni sports and GC sleeves/springs (factory 1.8 brakes too). It doesn't suck nearly as bad as people think, it's just not as good as ballerovers like xida. That said, i have Xidas coming tomorrow and i will be baller and better gain a couple seconds.

thanks guys. Red just so it doesn't seem like im a dumbass, the used konis came with rb springs as well, and aftermarket bumbstops from what it looks like. But I have decided against them.

I have been looking at the bilsteins but a little confused on what would be the best setup for me. sports or HD's? I check 949 and ISC website so will probably or from one of them.

now as for which one. I want a stiff ride, I hate the rebound and body roll of the stock stuff now, so will be changing out sways, when doing the new shock setup. Would like something pretty aggressive, and some people have said billies are able to stand up to 700lbs springs... is that true for stock spec billies or is that after revale?

Sorry for all the questions..

Right, but that doesn't mean:
monotube = heaven
twin tube = worse than feces

You really should read the suspension section more.

This all has recently been discussed at least a handful of times at very great length, with lots and lots of very influential people providing their input.

You want the 99+ Sport or Hard S billies, not the HDs.

Seriously, read. Its all right here.

Yeah but when they are both custom revalveable and the same price...

they suck in the following situations:

• the mindset of getting into a car with konis shits sports
• backing out of the driveway and concussing from the 0.50" drop of the curb
• hemorraging brain from speed bump #1
• seizure from speed bump #2
• teeth falling out from hitting pothole out of neighborhood
• inablity to take on ramp at any good speed because inferior suspension
• various screws falling from random places once to speed on highway from inability to absorb any inperfections in road
• getting into coworkers car loaded with racelands, enjoying the smooth ride and going just as slow around corners; contracting HIVs.

They are good in the following situations:

• Impressing your autox buddies back in 1990 because you worked with Koni to develop a shock with the same damping curve as stock shocks, but with tons of extra rebound in low-speed, so you could stay on stock springs, but to keep you on the bumpstops around longer sweepers thus increasing your springsrates to infinity to get an extra edge in a silly stock class in a silly motorsports event that no one cares about.
• Feeding the troll that is the m.net default "go to" answer for the last 20 years.
• The placebo effect from thinking you improved your suspension setup.

The fact that you've shaved that time is a testament to your good driving ability (being able to overcome your self-inflicted handicap) and the turbo. It's not like SM has a suspension setup that anyone with a clue would ever try to replicate.

ok thanks 18psi, I'll keep researching thanks, guys

What is missing in this whole coversation is the primary useage for these shocks. If it is a street driven car, stay with twin-tube. Twin-tube shocks have gas pressue that helps prevent the shock oil from frothing (Creating bubbles). Mono-tube shocks do not have the gas pressure so they are more prone to frothing, and when you get air bubbles in the oil, the piston is no longer being controlled by that oil.

There are several schools of thought over which shock is better. I look at it this way, if you want to win National Championships (Autocrossing, NASA, Road Racing) Koni has a geat track record, but then again so does Moton. If you want to hard-park, low-and-slow any shock will work until you smash the piston from removing your bump-stomps.

In my personal cars, I have won money on Koni's. I have not won anything on any Bilstein equipped cars that I have driven. I have also won money on Tiens, but I would not recommend them.

I will warn you, there are two groups of people, the Koni people and the revalve Bilstein people. There is no in between for these groups. Koni people say the revalve Bilsteins are garbage and the Revalve people say the Koni's are garbage.

The correct answer for which shock you should buy, might be this:

Buy the best shock you can afford. If you can afford Koni or Bilstein, buy them. If you can only afford Racelands, save your money until you can buy Koni or Bilstein. See who has what in your area and take some rides and then choose.

Konis have a great track record because there was no competition, for a better shock for the miata, for the last 15 years. that doesnt count.

they are the worst shock for the miata. the term shock is fitting for them...as the harsh ride is shocking.

konis are garbage...anything who thinks otherwise, probably spent $300 on a Randall intake and a chrome luggage rack.

Just curious, what makes street use more likely to lead to frothing vs track usage?

On da streetz, you go harder, bro.

or in hustlers case, you go hard all the time. 10/10

Koni 2013!!!!!!!!!

Remember that time on the way to the dyno, I was tuning your car, and almost lost your laptop when we hit that dip in the road and we launched out of the seats?

koni 2008.

It is the repetitive nature of bumps, dips, wash-boaring we encounter everyday on the road. If you think about most tracks, they are smooth, so the only action a shock may see is the slower loading from side to side, braking, acceleration and the every now and again curb. There is a lot more time between events (Shock shaft movements) on the track compared to street driving.

This is an area where spending the money is absolutely worth it.

You're already at a $500 budget apparently. How many times over the next couple of years do you expect to repetitively "upgrade"? Would it not make more sense to save your beans and get a really great setup once? Xida or FCM type setup?

Don't get the Konis. And if you are going to get the Konis buy mine in a few months. :party:

They came on my car, and I hate them. It's bad enough that Tucson roads are apparently driven on by 18-wheelers that have replaced their wheels with jackhammers, but to drive on the road after them with Konis is hell. You will also bottom out on every speed bump because of the lack of high speed damping unless you ricer crawl over them, and even then you're going to scrape rails. You might also get a concussion from dips in the freeway or speed tables if you have a hard top.

To top it all off, most places charge around $100+ to rebuild them, and they're $150 new. I suppose you could get a custom valve job if you could get a used set for nearly free and they'd be a good option when combined with a GC kit, but this goes for all of the revalvable shocks.

Seems like these are the best options based on my research:
(Note: Get NB parts. Buy beg or steal NB top hats. Top hat price not included. You should also get aftermarket sways if you don't have them already.)

R!celands - $375
R!celands w/ lighter rear springs* ~ $475?
FM's V-Maxx - $600
Revalved shocks + GC Kit ~ $600-800 + price of used shocks
Tein Basis - $690
Bilstein Sports + GC Kit - $875
Xida-CS - $2100
Xida Full - $4400

*Can't recall better spring rates for R!celand. Read the thread if you go that route. More information than you can shake a stick at.

I'm going to be going R!celands with different springs next, since my Koni's are old and starting to protest over speed bumps, while I save up for the Xida-CS goodness.

You're doing it wrong, you need to drive your street car on an auto-x course and "win" "events"

why not just wear a neck brace/hans device and just stay with konis while you save up? or those shocks in the FS section?

For a mostly street car, I'm not sure a setup like the $700 Tein Street Basis is not a better option. You get everything together in one package, including bumpstops. You don't get the fiddly knobs which, in my opinion, is not a bad thing.

By the time you piece together many of the other setups, it's not hard to spend more money and time. Just throwin' that out there.

I can get a good deal on a Hans through work, but I think I'd enjoy changing to cheap shocks more. :laugh:

And the Tokico Illumina's? I saw them in FS, but they're NA, and I already have a set of NB top hats and bumps that are itching a hole in my storage unit. And I have mystery springs.

I totally forgot about emilio's Tein packages. Great value there. Less money than FM's V-maxx stuff, with a bigger brand.

Not sure what you mean: tein basis and fm vmaxx are 700 and 600 respectively.

I like both and think they're really similar to one another with the vmaxx being a bit more focused on street driving and the basis on track. Both are about mid-level performance.

I love my fm stg1 setup on the street, hataz gonna hate :)

Bah. I was looking under their "suspension packages" at the stage 2 that comes with swaybars for $750, not under "suspension components."

At $600 with the right spring rates and helper springs... I might go that route instead of R!celands.

Honestly if I was in your position and couldn't afford xidas that's EXACTLY what I'd do.

Just for anyone paying attention:

Vmaxx Classic = 391/258
Vmaxx Track pack = 504/336

I'm "relatively" happy with the Classic's + FM sways, but it hasn't taken much track time to already need more rate and more sway. At the end of the season, XIDA's and Emilio's sways will go on, or if I get enough OT, sooner.

I had the classics and absolutely loved em. Perfect balance between performance and comfort.

The trackheads in here will probably wanna opt for the track version.

OP, buy maniac's setup when he upgrades to Xida's. Problem solved!

MX5Racer
"What is missing in this whole coversation is the primary useage for these shocks. If it is a street driven car, stay with twin-tube. Twin-tube shocks have gas pressue that helps prevent the shock oil from frothing (Creating bubbles). Mono-tube shocks do not have the gas pressure so they are more prone to frothing, and when you get air bubbles in the oil, the piston is no longer being controlled by that oil. "

Obviously you don't have a clue that a monotube has a separate chamber that contains nitrogen that keeps the oil from cavitating.

I never understood why he sold Tein. My Basics weren't too bad, but is anyone actually using these for anything but street use?




Oh, and this.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1363571044

Just like with the springs they sell: pretty sure its just due to popular demand, and not because Emilio approves of them

I like my teins, but I understand their weaknesses. but MUCH better overall over my koni setup.

Having run both in a competitive environment (yep, that lowly autocross, but this applies to the track as well) is the lack of adjustability. So you're out at your first session, and the car is a pushy pig.. what can you do? Tire pressures.. and maybe a single sway bar adjustment? At least with the Konis you can increase or decrease rebound at either end of the car, which help more in transition. Yep, when the track conditions suited my revalved R bilsteins they were much better than the konis, but when they were off, there wasn't much I could do other than shutup and drive.

<firesuit on>I'll admit the 949 offering is an easy button. 949racing.com, pull out the CC and they're at your door in a week or so, but they're not the only game in town. Prather seems to have the afco monotubes figured out. Penske has a top notch offering, Koni has the 3011/3012 series monotubes or the 2812's. Heck even Bilstien will make a double adjustable shock if you call them up. All are in the same price ranges as the Xida, but require a phone call and consultation.
</firesuit on>

so you can adjust from too much rebound all the way to TOOOOOOOOO MUCH MOTHER FUCKING REBOUND OMFG WE ARE ALL GOIGN TO DIE FROM JACKING DOWNNNNSADFSAFSAfds?!!!!?!?!

In that price range, what else you gonna do? Get something that works well half the time, or get something that works ok ALL the time. What I'm saying is, in the sub $1000 range you've got to make compromises, which compromise do you want to make?

For the record I moved from Koni Sports to the revalved Bilsteins on my ES car and was happy with the move. If I was to do it again, I'd have more strongly considered revalving the konis for less rebound and more lowspeed compression .

I don't understand the hate...if you think they have too much rebound, run more spring! :)

My codriver and I love our Koni Race setup.

If you run more spring, the ride quality gets even worse. Keep trying to convince us that twin-tube, underdamped, high-hysteria, linear, valved for stock springs shocks are still relevant.



Koni Race :ne: Koni Sport