NB Non sport brakes capabilities
11-21-2013, 01:30 PM
#1
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NB Non sport brakes capabilities
Not sure if its covered already (yes I did search) but I'm thinking of adding boost on my NB. Not sure which route I'm going yet but I'd like a reliable 160 whp. I'd be DD/HPDE 60%/40% of the time and wondering if I'd need sport brakes or will the stock non sport brakes hold up?
I'd probably put a nice coat of plastidip on the wheels and run DTC-60's or R4's. IDGAF about noise.
I'd probably put a nice coat of plastidip on the wheels and run DTC-60's or R4's. IDGAF about noise.
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11-22-2013, 12:20 PM
#2
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NB non-sports are factory 1.8 brakes, same as every non-sport 94-02. They'll be fine for someone just starting out in an HPDE environment at ~160whp, but as you advance and get faster, you'll start to see pad taper and accelerated pad wear. Run through a set of 60s for your current brakes and then decide whether you want to upgrade to Wilwoods.
I have DTC-60s for 1.8 and Wilwood in stock.
Wilwood DTC-60
1.8L DTC-60
I have DTC-60s for 1.8 and Wilwood in stock.
Wilwood DTC-60
1.8L DTC-60
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11-22-2013, 02:24 PM
#3
As someone in your shoes, I can confirm the above. Those brakes (given decent pads and fresh fluid) will work fine at that HP level. You will taper pads, all floating calipers do. As long as you replace the pads when they hit the wear notch, you'll be fine. At some point do a cost vs. benefit of frequent pad replacement vs. upgrading to BBK with fixed calipers.
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11-22-2013, 02:40 PM
#4
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Thanks for the feedback. Would the sport brakes be a more viable option to the wilwoods? From my standpoint right now, I don't have plans to convert this car to a full track car yet
thanks again
thanks again
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11-22-2013, 02:50 PM
#5
I wouldn't bother with sport brakes. They are more rare and everything is more expensive. Still a floating caliper design that will taper pads. I'm not aware of any real, quantifiable advantage that would offset the increased cost of upkeep.
OTOH, once you step up to a fixed-caliper BBK, the pads are even less expensive than regular 1.8 pads.
BTW, for dual-duty pads, you might give the Centric StopTech Street Performance pads a try (about $40 for a set of fronts at Rock Auto). I'd do those over Hawk HP+.
OTOH, once you step up to a fixed-caliper BBK, the pads are even less expensive than regular 1.8 pads.
BTW, for dual-duty pads, you might give the Centric StopTech Street Performance pads a try (about $40 for a set of fronts at Rock Auto). I'd do those over Hawk HP+.
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11-22-2013, 03:27 PM
#8
160 hp? Can't that been done with a VVT engine with bolt ons and MS3? 01+ Exhaust, EDM Intake, Exhintake or Mazdaspeed Cam, injectors and coil-per-cylinder? Most of which are required for a decent turbo setup anyway.
I plan on doing all of the above on my car (except VVT) before I go turbo, along with suspension mods. I want to learn the car at stockish power/braking levels before ramping up either significantly, plus learning tuning and MS is easier when a stupid mistake doesn't necessarily cost you an engine.
The stock 1.8 brakes should be fine at 160 hp. People are running 250 hp FMII kits with stock non-sport brakes. ****, in the 60's they drove 400hp 3 ton land yachts with four wheel drum brakes, and it was good! It all depends on how you drive. But as Sav said, the faster you get, the better brakes you'll want. I'd go the other way around with brakes before power, because all of the power in the world won't help you if you get cut off by a semi on the way to work.
Whatever you choose to do brake wise, you'll also need to swap master cylinders and boosters. Keith has a good post over on m.net about the different boosters and master combinations. I'd recommend an adjustable rear prop valve no matter what you do, even if you stay stock. These cars are set up to be safe, not for performance.
Some interesting brake information (tech!) - MX-5 Miata Forum
My car has about 1" of pedal travel before the brakes start to engage (after a fresh bleed), and I've been told an ABS booster would eliminate that dead zone. I've also been told a 929 master and a non-ABS sport booster would do the same.
I plan on doing all of the above on my car (except VVT) before I go turbo, along with suspension mods. I want to learn the car at stockish power/braking levels before ramping up either significantly, plus learning tuning and MS is easier when a stupid mistake doesn't necessarily cost you an engine.
The stock 1.8 brakes should be fine at 160 hp. People are running 250 hp FMII kits with stock non-sport brakes. ****, in the 60's they drove 400hp 3 ton land yachts with four wheel drum brakes, and it was good! It all depends on how you drive. But as Sav said, the faster you get, the better brakes you'll want. I'd go the other way around with brakes before power, because all of the power in the world won't help you if you get cut off by a semi on the way to work.
Whatever you choose to do brake wise, you'll also need to swap master cylinders and boosters. Keith has a good post over on m.net about the different boosters and master combinations. I'd recommend an adjustable rear prop valve no matter what you do, even if you stay stock. These cars are set up to be safe, not for performance.
Some interesting brake information (tech!) - MX-5 Miata Forum
My car has about 1" of pedal travel before the brakes start to engage (after a fresh bleed), and I've been told an ABS booster would eliminate that dead zone. I've also been told a 929 master and a non-ABS sport booster would do the same.
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11-22-2013, 06:52 PM
#10
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As for 160 whp, just a ballpark number on what i'd like as of now to not spend too much money on a full rebuild, safe boost levels so I dont blow my motor, and relatively cheaper compared to getting a whole new VVT block.
My plan was a kit turbo or kit supercharger and using that as baseline. Plus it would be easier to sell these parts off.. thats just my thinking but if I'm absurdly off then **** i have a lot more reading to do ha
My plan was a kit turbo or kit supercharger and using that as baseline. Plus it would be easier to sell these parts off.. thats just my thinking but if I'm absurdly off then **** i have a lot more reading to do ha
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11-22-2013, 07:43 PM
#11
Start out prepping for a turbo. Don't bother with a Supercharger. Even the best option for a Miata (Fast Forward Supercharger's MP62 kit) pales to a churbo, let alone the unobtanium forged housing and turned down piece of Mjolnir that makes up the Borg Warner EFR turbos. Oh, and just about the same price.
I'm pretty sure you can hit 160 N/A without VVT. You have a NB but not VVT, so you have a 99-00 (put this in your sig, it makes helping easier!), which got the new head.
Pre-turbo engine/ drivetrain mods:
01+ Exhaust Manifold - $ - The 99-00 has a log manifold. Cut it in half so no one else is tempted to use it ever again. You will gain power on the butt dyno with this one.
Megasquirt - $$ - Learn to tune N/A and get it running well without bewst
Clutch - $$ - FM Happy Meal, or Emilio's baller dual ceramic disc.
Post- Megasquirt Mods
Fuel Pump/Injectors - $<>$$$$$ - You need mo' fuel for mo' powa'
Coil per cylinder - $<>$$ - Skip Toyota COPS, go straight to LS2 coils.
Exhintake/Mazdaspeed Intake Cam - $<>$$$ - Mo' powa'
EDM/JDM Intake - $$$ - Bigger plenum, bigger runners.
Power handling mods
Mazdacomp motor mounts - $ - I can't recommend the poly or delrin mounts. The mazdacomp added a significant amount of vibration to my car. Can't imagine with a stiffer bushing.
Poly Diff Mounts - $ - Made a huge difference in feel. Minor increase in vibration.
I added the two sets of mounts because tying the drivetrain firmly to the subframes frees up lost power. You will also likely thrash 10+ year old rubber parts once you start the HPDE's. I'd also recommend full poly bushings in the control arms, a racing beat front sway, and the stock rear. A good set of shocks and springs is also a must (Bilstein HD's with FM Springs are a good starter OTS solution, or FM's V-Maxx or 949's Tecna kit are good starters too)
I'm pretty sure you can hit 160 N/A without VVT. You have a NB but not VVT, so you have a 99-00 (put this in your sig, it makes helping easier!), which got the new head.
Pre-turbo engine/ drivetrain mods:
01+ Exhaust Manifold - $ - The 99-00 has a log manifold. Cut it in half so no one else is tempted to use it ever again. You will gain power on the butt dyno with this one.
Megasquirt - $$ - Learn to tune N/A and get it running well without bewst
Clutch - $$ - FM Happy Meal, or Emilio's baller dual ceramic disc.
Post- Megasquirt Mods
Fuel Pump/Injectors - $<>$$$$$ - You need mo' fuel for mo' powa'
Coil per cylinder - $<>$$ - Skip Toyota COPS, go straight to LS2 coils.
Exhintake/Mazdaspeed Intake Cam - $<>$$$ - Mo' powa'
EDM/JDM Intake - $$$ - Bigger plenum, bigger runners.
Power handling mods
Mazdacomp motor mounts - $ - I can't recommend the poly or delrin mounts. The mazdacomp added a significant amount of vibration to my car. Can't imagine with a stiffer bushing.
Poly Diff Mounts - $ - Made a huge difference in feel. Minor increase in vibration.
I added the two sets of mounts because tying the drivetrain firmly to the subframes frees up lost power. You will also likely thrash 10+ year old rubber parts once you start the HPDE's. I'd also recommend full poly bushings in the control arms, a racing beat front sway, and the stock rear. A good set of shocks and springs is also a must (Bilstein HD's with FM Springs are a good starter OTS solution, or FM's V-Maxx or 949's Tecna kit are good starters too)
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11-23-2013, 11:04 AM
#12
I wouldn't say that...145whp is I/H/E w/ MS3 and a tune, but the other 15whp is going to take some more work, probably higher compression, combined with EUDM manifold, and possibly more?
I think the turbo is not a bad idea, he will probably want to step it up higher than 160whp at a later date anyway and that is much easier with a turbo.
OP
As you start out I think the Stock 1.8 brakes will work fine. I think you could definitely make good use of a BBK though. I would go for a wilwood kit over the sport brakes, especially in the front.
I think the turbo is not a bad idea, he will probably want to step it up higher than 160whp at a later date anyway and that is much easier with a turbo.
OP
As you start out I think the Stock 1.8 brakes will work fine. I think you could definitely make good use of a BBK though. I would go for a wilwood kit over the sport brakes, especially in the front.
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11-23-2013, 11:20 AM
#13
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Reference TheScaryOne
I don't see the need to spend $ on a 01+ exhaust manifold to only scrap it when the turbo is installed.
Also, indications are that, with proper sized (420cc+) injectors and the MS3, OP should be fine with stock fuel system for his boost levels and more. Sure a rail FPR has advantages, but is not needed.
I don't see the need to spend $ on a 01+ exhaust manifold to only scrap it when the turbo is installed.
Also, indications are that, with proper sized (420cc+) injectors and the MS3, OP should be fine with stock fuel system for his boost levels and more. Sure a rail FPR has advantages, but is not needed.
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11-25-2013, 01:55 PM
#14
You could always resell the manifold when you go trubo. It will provide a notable N/A power increase getting rid of the log manifold. It's also a super quick job and you should be able to pick one up between free and $50. They only used the log manifolds on 99-00, so this is a very specific recommendation.
As to the AFPR, that depends. Are the 420cc injectors EV14's, which want a higher base pressure (70+ PSI) than stock injectors for optimum performance? I'm swapping a 99 engine into my 94, and have to get a rail AFPR to bump the stock NA ~44 PSI up to the NB spec of ~60. Since OP already has a NB, that's not his problem, but an AFPR is useful in situations other than allofit. I'd also put in a Deatschworks D300 to replace the stock pump for insurance.
Also, since OP has a returnless fuel system, won't he need to convert to return style to run a referenced fuel pressure regulator for bewst? Or should he just crank fuel pressure sky-high using a restrictor pellet Jackson Racing style?
Edit: Rising rate FPR not needed for aftermarket ECU, only as bandaid for stock ECU. Hrm. Then can I just replace my on-rail FPR with a standard two-port AFPR to adjust my base pressure, and then do everything else in the computer?
My point was that he could get almost to his desired power level prepping for a turbo. Then if he decides he wants more power and goes turbo, he's ready to go for allofit, however much he decides allofit to be, because he already has learned how to tune and has the supporting mods. Why buy a $5000 turbo kit only to sell it in six months as used because you want to go bigger? Then you need a larger IC, and bigger injectors, and an aftermarket ECM, and new piping, and a better manifold, etc. etc. There are plenty of build threads where people have done just that. I'd rather buy parts once, myself.
As to the AFPR, that depends. Are the 420cc injectors EV14's, which want a higher base pressure (70+ PSI) than stock injectors for optimum performance? I'm swapping a 99 engine into my 94, and have to get a rail AFPR to bump the stock NA ~44 PSI up to the NB spec of ~60. Since OP already has a NB, that's not his problem, but an AFPR is useful in situations other than allofit. I'd also put in a Deatschworks D300 to replace the stock pump for insurance.
Edit: Rising rate FPR not needed for aftermarket ECU, only as bandaid for stock ECU. Hrm. Then can I just replace my on-rail FPR with a standard two-port AFPR to adjust my base pressure, and then do everything else in the computer?
My point was that he could get almost to his desired power level prepping for a turbo. Then if he decides he wants more power and goes turbo, he's ready to go for allofit, however much he decides allofit to be, because he already has learned how to tune and has the supporting mods. Why buy a $5000 turbo kit only to sell it in six months as used because you want to go bigger? Then you need a larger IC, and bigger injectors, and an aftermarket ECM, and new piping, and a better manifold, etc. etc. There are plenty of build threads where people have done just that. I'd rather buy parts once, myself.
Last edited by TheScaryOne; 11-25-2013 at 03:42 PM.
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11-26-2013, 10:38 PM
#15
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This^
I would do a square top intake, RB header, 23" cold side intake, E85, MS3X/AEM, and have a 160hp bullet proof fun DD/track car. According to Emilio you will make slightly more top end with the 99 head and fatter torque curve with a VVT head. I would do the VVT head for a street car, but do all the bolt ons and ECU first on your 99 head. Everything but the header can be used with a turbo build later. I would rather have an all motor miata track car vs turbo at the present time.
=
Decide on a few things up front and it'll be easier for the rest of us to offer useful advice.
-Autocross, what class?
-Wheel to wheel racing or HPDE only, what class?
-Street only?
-Does it need to be emissions legal in any state? (what state)
-Must it be able to run on pump gas and if so, what octane?
-Must it run in a street car, (A/C, OEM alternator, col start driveability etc) ?
-Actual budget for everything connected to engine/power making hardware?
-Tuned by a pro or semi-knowledgeable amateur?
-You cool with the additional tuning/set up hassles of an IRTB set up?
-Does the car need to be quiet?
-Do you have a shop in mind that is familiar with race BP series builds?
Cost no object, I suspect someone could build a 300whp grenade that runs on exotic fuel. In the real world 150-190whp is doable within the budget of the most of us.
150whp is bolt-ons and a good tune. Above that you need to go into the motor.
160-165whp is just a little bowl work and compression.
170whp requires more substantial head work or mild cams or lots of compression, pick one.
185whp requires mild cams (still streetable in a VVT), compression, porting. Pick two.
195whp full head work, lots of compression and mild to medium race cams.
205whp+ is pretty much a full race engine with cams that would probably never idle for street use.
225whp+ so and the life expectancy begins to shorten. Perhaps 15-30 race hrs and you're looking at a $15-20K long block.
We have just touched 180whp on stock cams with an NB2 motor but it was not cheap. Based on the data from that experiment, I know 190whp on stock cams is possible with IRTB's, more compression and E85. At that point however, you should just feed it the cams it wants. We played with stock cams to gain a higher BFSC for endurance racing.
For most guys, I think a stock-ish cam NB2 build makes the most sense. Run as much compression as your fuel will stand, get the best ECU you can, build a Honda B series manifold grafted onto the Mazda flange, RB/Maruha/Maxim works header, fully port and polish the head. Forged everything, SUB's and heavier valve springs. That should net and easy 175whp or so, be safe to 8000rpm sustained, idle like a stocker and last 100 race hours.
Decide on a few things up front and it'll be easier for the rest of us to offer useful advice.
-Autocross, what class?
-Wheel to wheel racing or HPDE only, what class?
-Street only?
-Does it need to be emissions legal in any state? (what state)
-Must it be able to run on pump gas and if so, what octane?
-Must it run in a street car, (A/C, OEM alternator, col start driveability etc) ?
-Actual budget for everything connected to engine/power making hardware?
-Tuned by a pro or semi-knowledgeable amateur?
-You cool with the additional tuning/set up hassles of an IRTB set up?
-Does the car need to be quiet?
-Do you have a shop in mind that is familiar with race BP series builds?
Cost no object, I suspect someone could build a 300whp grenade that runs on exotic fuel. In the real world 150-190whp is doable within the budget of the most of us.
150whp is bolt-ons and a good tune. Above that you need to go into the motor.
160-165whp is just a little bowl work and compression.
170whp requires more substantial head work or mild cams or lots of compression, pick one.
185whp requires mild cams (still streetable in a VVT), compression, porting. Pick two.
195whp full head work, lots of compression and mild to medium race cams.
205whp+ is pretty much a full race engine with cams that would probably never idle for street use.
225whp+ so and the life expectancy begins to shorten. Perhaps 15-30 race hrs and you're looking at a $15-20K long block.
We have just touched 180whp on stock cams with an NB2 motor but it was not cheap. Based on the data from that experiment, I know 190whp on stock cams is possible with IRTB's, more compression and E85. At that point however, you should just feed it the cams it wants. We played with stock cams to gain a higher BFSC for endurance racing.
For most guys, I think a stock-ish cam NB2 build makes the most sense. Run as much compression as your fuel will stand, get the best ECU you can, build a Honda B series manifold grafted onto the Mazda flange, RB/Maruha/Maxim works header, fully port and polish the head. Forged everything, SUB's and heavier valve springs. That should net and easy 175whp or so, be safe to 8000rpm sustained, idle like a stocker and last 100 race hours.
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11-26-2013, 11:50 PM
#17
$450 for the RB header, or almost identical performance from the $50 01+ manifold..... Plus if you's got da federales emissiones you get to keep your stock downpipe and catback. And I wouldn't want to dump money on a catback if there is a chance of going turbo, because you'll want a bigger (and possibly full custom) exhaust for turbo than NA. Also you'll want a turbo muffler, which doesn't really muffle at all.
Resale on the RB headers vary. If you've got a super nice one that got a good cleaning after install before it got hot and is a nice color you will get more back than the one from the dirty car covered in burned in blue/rusty fingerprints and grease stains.
Also, don't waste the cash on an aftermarket cold air intake tube. It won't work when you go turbo, and you'll have to make compromises to fit in the stock AFM and IAT if you're not megasquirted. And if it takes air from anywhere behind the radiator, it's cool air at best.
If you really want real cold air you can make a ghettoJackson Racing Randall cowl intake using the stock air box, some dryer piping from home depot, and a hole saw. See hurr: https://www.miataturbo.net/diy-turbo...53/#post361221 You even get to keep using $3 disposable filters, which just might increase the life of your engine at the cost of 1-2 peak HP. K&N Air Filter Review - Debunking the Myths (and why OEM is better)
Edit: Poor resale value:
Good resale value:
Now I want a stainless header just for DAT COLOR!
Resale on the RB headers vary. If you've got a super nice one that got a good cleaning after install before it got hot and is a nice color you will get more back than the one from the dirty car covered in burned in blue/rusty fingerprints and grease stains.
Also, don't waste the cash on an aftermarket cold air intake tube. It won't work when you go turbo, and you'll have to make compromises to fit in the stock AFM and IAT if you're not megasquirted. And if it takes air from anywhere behind the radiator, it's cool air at best.
If you really want real cold air you can make a ghetto
Edit: Poor resale value:
Good resale value:
Now I want a stainless header just for DAT COLOR!
Last edited by TheScaryOne; 11-27-2013 at 02:50 AM.
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11-27-2013, 02:11 AM
#19
And other than ad hominem, can you point out specifically where I'm wrong, so I can learn from my mistakes?
Edit: I mean, you can run a stock catback with a $500 header, but why? Racing Beat only shows a peak improvement of 5hp over the stock 2001 manifold, and that was with their 4>1 top end power design. http://www.racingbeat.com/manuals/Header_Dyno.pdf You could always get the catback, but if you go turbo you're gonna wanna go at least 3", not 2.375" which most NA kits have. You'd need a different muffler, as well. That's $1000 worth of exhaust that would need a new home if pika ultimately decides he wants the B, versus $50 and 5 less hp. :/
I guess I could recommend the $200 baller carbon fiber RANDALL (Not Jackson Racing, my bad.) cowl air intake tube, but the $5 hose from home depot works just as good. It looks like the perimeter of the obround hole on the stock box is a bit less than 10" (I have a spare sitting around), so a 3" ID hose would probably fit it well.
Other than that we both recommended the EDM intake and MS3.
Last edited by TheScaryOne; 11-27-2013 at 03:06 AM.
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11-27-2013, 08:22 AM
#20
$450 for the RB header, or almost identical performance from the $50 01+ manifold..... Plus if you's got da federales emissiones you get to keep your stock downpipe and catback. And I wouldn't want to dump money on a catback if there is a chance of going turbo, because you'll want a bigger (and possibly full custom) exhaust for turbo than NA. Also you'll want a turbo muffler, which doesn't really muffle at all.
Resale on the RB headers vary. If you've got a super nice one that got a good cleaning after install before it got hot and is a nice color you will get more back than the one from the dirty car covered in burned in blue/rusty fingerprints and grease stains.
Also, don't waste the cash on an aftermarket cold air intake tube. It won't work when you go turbo, and you'll have to make compromises to fit in the stock AFM and IAT if you're not megasquirted. And if it takes air from anywhere behind the radiator, it's cool air at best.
If you really want real cold air you can make a ghettoJackson Racing Randall cowl intake using the stock air box, some dryer piping from home depot, and a hole saw. See hurr: https://www.miataturbo.net/diy-turbo...53/#post361221 You even get to keep using $3 disposable filters, which just might increase the life of your engine at the cost of 1-2 peak HP. K&N Air Filter Review - Debunking the Myths (and why OEM is better)
Now I want a stainless header just for DAT COLOR!
Resale on the RB headers vary. If you've got a super nice one that got a good cleaning after install before it got hot and is a nice color you will get more back than the one from the dirty car covered in burned in blue/rusty fingerprints and grease stains.
Also, don't waste the cash on an aftermarket cold air intake tube. It won't work when you go turbo, and you'll have to make compromises to fit in the stock AFM and IAT if you're not megasquirted. And if it takes air from anywhere behind the radiator, it's cool air at best.
If you really want real cold air you can make a ghetto
Now I want a stainless header just for DAT COLOR!
1) RB racing header is worth it. I had the 01+ intake. Its ok, but the 1-2 hp difference id definitely worth it.
2) intake side is where the miata has the most to gain. I know you are going to argue with me about this, but here it is from Emilio directly:
We built a few long tube "bundle of snakes" stepped headers, very carefully engineered. Gains were minimal over the RB at 140whp N/A to 350whp supercharged. Over the last 8 years of messing with the BP, we consistently find the largest gains on the intake side.
On a 130~170whp N/A BP engine..
A well designed cold air intake on a stock NB1 will find more power that a switching from a stock USDM 4:1 to any header.
A good intake manifold over the USDM units will also trump any header swap.
Hopefully this semi-troll post incites someone with data out there to post tests results from a Boig, Stahl, Prather or other one-off against the RB. If it exists, I want one for this engine project
On a 130~170whp N/A BP engine..
A well designed cold air intake on a stock NB1 will find more power that a switching from a stock USDM 4:1 to any header.
A good intake manifold over the USDM units will also trump any header swap.
Hopefully this semi-troll post incites someone with data out there to post tests results from a Boig, Stahl, Prather or other one-off against the RB. If it exists, I want one for this engine project
I don't know if I like the cowl intake, it seems like the "brute force" solution to this.
With that said, I do agree that E85 doesn't below on a daily unless you live in a location where its readily available at your pumps (ie probably California).
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