Question: When do I need a big brake kit?
 

Answer: When you can do this to Carbotech XP10s in 100 miles.

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I was running XP10s because I did this to the last bit of my XP12s on Saturday:

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Replacing the fronts with 11" Corrado rotors and M-tuned brackets, going to XP12s front and rear, and ordering a Tilton proportioning valve. My 1.8 brakes were fine for the vast majority of drivers, but with the added downforce on my car and my driving capabilities coming up to meet the car this weekend in a big way, the brakes finally waved the white flag.

This isn't a critique of Carbotechs in any way - these pads worked very well both days, with a little fade in the last sessions of each day. You can't expect the pad material to make much of a difference when the heat in the brakes severely warps the backing plates.

I read the title and knew the answer already. :laugh:

I was going to say "When you can smell Andrew's brakes as he drives by to park".

Christ.

What/where can I get info on this prop valve?

I've got 1.8 stuff sitting on my parts car...Might have to man up and follow your lead.

Dude, you need to get some more airflow on the brakes. In SVRA race classes, where rules are strict for maintaining original brake sizes, I've seen huge success with good brake cooling schemes on some tiny-ass rotors.

fwiw
 

Pad wear like that is atypical. That's caused by a variety of issues, but there is definitely a problem when you get uneven wear top to bottom. The only uneven wear that's normal is on the leading edge of the pad. And we usually tapered the pad to minimize that. Think about tire wear, then look at your pad. You're not using but maybe half of the pad and inefficiently at that. Uneven wear like that brings a quick end to a brake pad due to overloading in one area creating excessive heat and wear.

The Miata brakes are lot better than they get credit for. Cooling and proper pad material ftw. I've cited this example numerous times, but it's a good example. :hustler: We ran a four hour enduro at Daytona in a 99 that weighed in at 2350# w/o driver. We were on the massive spec hoosier tire (225-45-15), with hawk blues, stock calipers, brembo rotors and two brake vents/hoses running from the mouth to the calipers. Running a 4.10 rear the car was just over 7k into the bustop chicane brake zone and a bit higher into the T1 brake zone. So not a turbo car, but certainly turbo speed.

Car had 1/3 pad material left at the end of the race and I can say that for at least the first two hours of the race (my stint) the brakes were used to their max. ;) Brakes are no different than anything else on the car- they require tuning, adequate material/parts, and proper (driver) application.

I'm not saying bigger brakes won't fix your problem, I'm saying that your current brakes are probably operating at about half their potential.

M2, I'm fully aware it's atypical wear. ;) I did this at Laguna Seca which is notorious for being very hard on brakes. My aero setup doesn't help at all. The inside-outside uneven wear came from the outer pads, which had the claws of the caliper dig into the backing plates and twist them out of proportion. The inner pads were better, but the piston itself actually pressed into the pad so hard that it slightly warped that one too. I used most of the inner pads and maybe 70% of the outer pads.

Ducting is on my list of things to-do. The prop valve will make a big difference as well; the rear XP10s look nearly brand new still, an indication of how poor the stock bias really is.

Sav, I've found that when you don't use the brake pedal you don't wear down brake pads.

You should slow down and coast more like wine and cheesers.

Ducting and XP12's should work out very well.

Good job on that Andrew!

My answer to the same problem was to get bigger brakes and a MSM front bumper. I'm going to run brake ducts from where the fog lamps are supposed to go.

This Natty Light has a nice bouquet. :giggle:

Speaking of wine, I got 2 free bottles from one of the organizers on Sunday.

Speaking of wine and cheesers...

I took a drive to a local winery this weekend with the girlfriend to drink some free wine and so she could buy some bottles to replenish her supply. As we were getting ready to leave, an older guy and his wife approached and asked about the car. He said he had one as well, blah blah. I told him I wish I would have got over the "fag car" stigma sooner and actually driven one a few years ago, because I love the way the car drives (other than a lack of power which is currently being addressed). He and his wife were like "Oh really? We've never heard of thm being called that." After they left, my GF asked "What rock have they been hiding under to not know that?" :rofl:

i've seen backing plates on stock miata brakes melt before at thunderhill--not my car.

the solution was an F430.

That much heat can't be good for the front hubs.

My answer was going to be "when you realize sliding calipers are ass." ;)

That last picture is what my brand new EBC Redstuff pads looked like after a weekend at the track. worst pads ever.

Why don't you guys run hawk blues at the track events? You're not doing anything less than racing IMO.

Cause I was cheap, got a huge discount since I sold the pads and was told they'd be fine for a 2000 lbs car at 170rwhp. Even the rears were at the backing plates.

I now have a set of xp10/xp8s, the Corrado rotors and a Wilwood proportioning valve for this season.

i know they expensive but get the front big brake kit from willwood. ask sleeper mx5 he has been in my ride he loves them. he thinks i am going to kill him but then my car stops. i have had them for 5 years and they are the best..

mini note:

brakes (like clutches) are energy conversion devices.

brakes convert kinetic energy into heat.

in order to work, you have to be able to transfer heat effectively from the brake pad interface to the atmosphere.

if you can't get the heat OUT of the brakes, they are not effective.

so while you might think bigger brakes = bigger heat sinks, you'd be right but you'd also be missing the point that you still need to transfer heat from the disc to the atmosphere.

GET SOME DUCTS ON THAT THANG.

because I want to keep my 6ULs pretty. HP+ screwed up my 99-wheels pretty bad.

you're a fag.

You need brake ducts. The new metal shit can't help brake temps. Also, I wonder what the big splitters do to trans and rear end temps?

They would help control temp spikes even if the average was the same.

I've found that my pads wear like that too, they'll look a little less than half on the inside edge (the part you can see as you look through the spokes), when in actuality they're just about to hit the backing plate on the outside edge. Pisses me off cause I think "damn my brakes suck." But really I just need to get new pads or only inspect them if I take the wheel off.

M2cup: Are you running brake ducts from some fog light holes or just from the edge of the "mouth". And where/how are you attaching them to the upright? Pics would be awesome.

There's enough room under the stock radiator, above the undertray to squeeze them in and then just block off the space between them. The plan was to ultimately use a short/wide vent under the rad (take your pick), but they worked ok with the hose ends so we never messed with it. We then zip tied the other end to ss brakeline with a couple of zip ties to aim it at the caliper/pad/rotor.

Comp has rotor shields with hose fittings. Doppleganger has a pair. Cool stuff. One of these days I need to help him install them.

I'm looking at solutions too. Went through xp8's in a couple days. My xp10 backing plates turned bright white and the rotors are very burned after 1 day. Pad is still good but they really cooked and that was a wet day that I missed a lot of track time on. Our track has two 120-40mph, 120-50mph braking zones.

1. Absolutely eed to run ducts of some sort.
2. Looking at big brake options. I'm thinking the 11" corrado w/ stock caliper might not be enough. I'm wondering how much fab would be needed to make the wilwood civic front kit work. $566 at summit. That's dynalite 4 pots w/ aluminum hats & 11" rotors.

For really big brakes they have a 6 pot set up too. The wilwood dynapro Six looks to be just the ticket for calipers. Much larger pad surface. I have to think a larger pad surface has to help with wear, tear and heat. Those with 11.75" rotors should fit if a bracket can be made for the caliper. With aluminum hats, quality rotors and the aluminum calipers the overall weight wouldn't be any more than stock.

Sweet m2, I'll be doing that fairly soon, I'll try to snap some pics for others. I was on the edge about cutting holes in the bumper to add vents, so this is a great in between step to get some kind of benefit.

I vote against the Corrado rotor upgrade.

Just do ducting, xp12s front and rear, and the prop valve.

+1

link to "comp" please. I'd like to do the ISC shields, but I has sport breakes.

Why aren't you guys running xp12's? I hope mine perform better than everyone else here.

He was running xp12s up front, but finished those off in the first day. All he could get for the second day was xp10s, so that's what he ran.

A consideration when using the ultra race compound pads is pedal (force) application. The proper curve for pedal application does wonders for pad (brake) wear by transitioning the pad from a static state to the surface of the rotor, providing smooth transition to load and allowing the pad to reach operating temp before full load. High temp pads actually do a poorer job of braking when they're not at optimum temp. They wear quicker and tear rotors up quicker. The chart below demonstrates two braking pressure curves, the blue (brakes are hammered) is a quick load up with minimal transition and heat time, while the magenta curve benefits the pad as stated above. The benefits of proper braking routine compound when you consider load transfers - which impact both brake AND tire performance. A better gripping tire means shorter stopping distances. For this reason the magenta curve will always provide a shorter braking distance, while using less.

[Chart: Curves represent the degree of force applied Y (vertical) over time X (horizontal).]

Great info m2cars1cup!

What is it with all the non-labeled graphs though. I appreciate a good graph as much as anyone, but who in the hell makes a worthwhile graph that doesn't have labeled axises.

Often we can follow due to explanation, but if you explanation was missing, that graph could be comparing a NBO2 sensor step function to some weird square function WBO2, with the shaded areas being what's below stoich.

EDIT:

I understand you probably grabbed this from somewhere, not dissing you at all...just saying when we present data, we should do so in a proper manner. It's pretty easy to open it up in paint and add what will effectively convey your point. I've been seeing a lot of VAGUE graphs posted lately.

:bowrofl:

Would that count as DEI?




ewww

You can get the calipers for $125-$150 or so from a variety of sources. 11" rotors can be had from a late NB for what, $25 each? Then it's just a matter of fabricating the brackets, which, alas, is the difficult part. If you can machine them yourself, it's no big deal, but if you're paying somebody to do it, expect it to get pricey fast.

Hawk Blue:
-600° MOT
-Eats the fuck out of rotors
-Highly corrosive brake dust
-Unuseable on the street due to rotor wear

Carbotech XP12:
-1950° MOT
-Easy on rotors
-Brake dust is non-corrosive, even after you get it wet and let it sit
-Useable on the street due to their excellent cold bite characteristics, low noise, and mild rotor wear

:loser:

get willwoods !! one thing you dont want to be cheap on is brakes. i mean if you are going fast you are going to want to stop fast,, if not you might end up loosing your ride in a crash and have to spend more money fixing body parts.. spend money on good brakes and hopefully never have the accident.

oh by the way savington you COP on sleeper mx5 look great.. and i like your splitter set up. you do some great work.

Wilwoods are expensive and I don't believe they are necessary.
Hell, I'm not even sure the Corrado rotor upgrade is necessary with other components being correct (pads, prop valve, ducting).

Expensive??

Wilwood Forged Billet Dynalite Calipers : Wilwood Dynalite Calipers : Wilwood Forged Dynalite Calipers

$125 a caliper isn't expensive... $1200 for 2 of those and 2 rotors is expensive..

We need someone to make a bracket for that with the wilwood calipers with corrado rotors...so I can get in on quick-change pads and lightness. I'd buy a rear wilwood caliper too. Its way too easy to change pads...it almost justifies the cost.

I've been planning on looking for a catalog of brake rotors with specific applications, sizes, weights, etc... The Corrado rotors are tempting, but I'm wondering just how big of a rotor could fit with 15" wheels..

Thing is though, the rotors are going to cost some money but I'm convinced it'll be worth it. Since the wilwoods are fixed (non-floating) from what little I've learned about brakes the rotors need to be 2 piece floating style similar to my motorcycle.

If I can get something worked out I'll be fabbin' up some brackets to be machined.

I've been researching wilwood options. Here is a guy that did it and documented it pretty well. He modded a mini and a honda kit to fit.

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/737924/2

It looks like both the Mini kits and Honda kits can be modded pretty easily to make them work. Absolute max rotor size on 15's is 11.75 depending on the caliper and wheel offsets. 11 is pretty easy. A couple of kits worth looking at are Wilwood 140-8695 and 140-10736. The mini cooper kit is 140-8740.

The first is an 11" kit using the regular forged dynalite 4 piston caliper. Pads are about the same size as the Miata pad. Lot's of options for pads for them, it's a popular pattern. Hawk blues, porterfields and more are around $65 an axle! Of course carbotechs are double that. Lots of choices though. Best price found was $545.

The second is a Honda kit uses the new Dynapro 6 piston caliper. The hat is a more common 8x7 disc bolt pattern so the discs are more plentiful. The included disc is 12.19" too large in my book but it would be easy to sell them off and get a proper size 11.75 disc. The pad pattern is much less common. Fewer choices in makes and about double the money for pads. Of course they are much larger also so they should wear better. Best price I found was $793.

The mini kit uses an 11.75" rotor and the forged dynapro calipers. Again, lots of pad choices. Uses a different hold down for the pads, clips not pins. 4 piston caliper. This one uses a radial mount where the honda kits are lug. I'm guessing lug is easier to DIY but the cardomain link the guy used this mini kit up front. Much higher end beefier caliper than the dynalite. Didn't price this one where I found great pricing but it's about $100 more than the 6 piston pricing them through summit.

That 6 piston set up is sexy as hell. The 4 piston is pretty practical. The 11" two piece rotors are pretty light and the calipers are a huge weight drop. There are fewer rotor options in the smaller bolt pattern used on the hat for 11" rotors compared to the 8x7 pattern used on the 11.75s.

Rotors in the kit numbers I listed are solid, not drilled or slotted. They have other kit numbers for those. The Calipers are black but can be done red with another number.

http://info.wilwood.com/Images/Brake...ont_hat-lg.jpg

http://info.wilwood.com/Images/Brake...ont_hat-lg.jpg

http://info.wilwood.com/Images/Brake...b_front-lg.jpg

Easy peasy japanesy. It would make swapping out track and street pads a piece of cake. No more noisy dusty track pads on the DD car! Pads seem cheaper for the smaller dynalite caliper too. Another way to justify the initial expense.

Time and money! Sounds win win to me.

Wilwood makes adapters used in those kits. They can be bought separately. From that guys cardomain page it looks like it's easy to make them work.

Well, it took us 6 months, but your wish is our command.

https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t40100/

Dynalites on Corrado rotors with lines and centering rings.

I've seen all kinds of blown up brake parts. Only ever seen pad backing plates all gumby-fied like that here and on one other car. Both Carbotechs.:2cents: YMMV, etc.

But yeah, I do agree the stock calipers suck compared to anything good.