Supermiata Forged Front End Components
 

New products at Supermiata:

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...4503758968.jpg
Forged Upper Ball Joint for NA and NB. Yes, both.
Cir-clip retention in addition to knurled press-in design.
Made in the USA
Spacer for NA usage so that the castle nut reaches the cotter pin hole.



https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...4ed698c44d.jpg

Forged Lower Ball Joint
OE geometry
Made in the USA
Non-exended/OEM Geometry.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...61d671dc36.jpg

Forged Outer Tie rod
NA R Pkg/LE, NB geometry
Made in the USA



When we buy a new project car with the intent of track or autocross use, the first step is always catching it up on preventative maintenance. For most, that includes the basic tune up stuff, fluids, pads, tires, etc. For us, it also includes fresh hubs, bearings and flanges, as well as balljoints and tie rod ends. These cars are getting long in the tooth. Moving parts, wearable items, and highly stressed parts should all be addressed before track use. We now have a line of high quality, forged, parts that are made in the USA and available for all 90-05 Miatas.

We'll have a full front end refresh kit with the Inner Tie Rod options up as soon as the inners roll in, but each individual part listed above is available now.

I literally ordered 93LE outer tie rod ends yesterday, but all of these are more than welcome! Have you track-tested these yet?

Woot.

In 4 kit

Excellent question, and thanks for asking. If you know about our little company.. we track test everything.

Gonna have to check all my upper ball joints and maybe order a few. Got the extended lowers ready to go in when I get time already...

I second this man. I am in for a kit whenever it comes out! Thanks for coming up with tested alternatives.

Everything is available now individually or as a kit.
-Upper Ball Joint
-Lower Ball Joint
-Extended Lower Ball Joint
-Outer Tie Rod End

https://supermiata.com/SuperMiata-Fr...rvice-Kit.aspx
In a month or so we will add inner tie rod ends. Not being exposed to the elements, inners tend to last lot longer.

Is this saying the tie-rod end geometry is the same for the "R Pkg/LE" and NB OEM tie rods?

I recall reading other threads here that indicated otherwise, but I (or they) could be wrong...

R pkg and NB are the same. All aftermarket tie rods are either NA or NB basically.

If you are still confused, look up the Mazda part numbers. There only two for the entire 89-05 run.

Perhaps silly question, my NB is a 2003, but only has 55,000 miles on it (prior owner basically didn't drive it much) . Is it likely that the rubber in ball joints + tie rod ends still ought to be replaced? Honestly haven't had it up in the air at home since it drives ok, but i'm not sure if its response is really what I should expect from it either

Why have people spent the last decade talking about putting LE tie rods on their NBs for optimum parts-binning bumpsteer eradication?

Im going to go out on a limb and guess that the "LE's are best" statenebt started before the NB came around, and that point stuck going forward, even though the NB's are the same.

That or when Mazda ran out of NOS on LE tierod ends, they simply updated the replacement PN to the NB part as it was "close enough" and you can no longer get the mythical unicorn fart scented LE tierod ends.

Just to clarify, this is me guessing, if someone actually knows, please feel free to call BS. :ugh2:

You can get LE tierod ends. There's been pretty in-depth discussions even in the last 2-3 years on the subject involving BBundy and i thought it was still common knowledge that upgrading to LE tie rod ends from "normal" NB tie rod ends was a good thing for NB owners.

The LE tie rod end and NB tie rod end are also different part numbers through Mazda. Seems there's some confusion as to what's actually being said in this thread. What there actually is, is LE/R tie rods, and not-LE/R tie rods. It's not NA vs NB, NB parts are not same as LE/R.

Update to info on our OTR's. We mistakenly stated R pkg and NB as same geometry. They are not. NA R pkg and LE are about 5mm longer to reduce angle of inner tie rod ends when car is lowered. This reduces bump steer. All other NA and NB OTR's have the same,geometry which is shorter.

The Supermiata forged OTR's are R/ LE geometry, longer and best suited to lowered cars to reduce bump steer. Matter of personal taste but I also like to add a 1/4" spacer under the steering rack in addition to the roughly 1/4" correction of our OTR's.

Gonna need comparo pics.

We stated a few times in multiple threads you had it wrong, to no response. I'm about 99.9% sure you're selling non-R/LE parts and have been, based on feedback seen and pics of what people have recieved when ordering these parts.

Cant tell from pics. We have all the relevant OEM Mazda parts and have measured on the bench. Pretty clearly defined and repeatable, no ambiguity.

But feel free to purchase the parts and take your own measurements. Speculation based on potato cam pics here notwithstanding.

Can you cut one of yours and an old oem one right down the middle to provide pictures

No but we can measure them to unequivocally define the functional geometry, which is the question you and Ben are asking.

Is that with both the NA and NB front ends?

Either. You need to able to recognize what bump steer feels like and how it manifests on track. Make an adjustment, drive it, see how it feels. Know that there is no "perfect" rack height as the curves crossover each other. On a street car, you want it the steering to be neutral on gentle bumps, well above the bump stops. On a track car, I focus more on how it feels further into the travel, closer to the bump stops.

Most NA/NB drivers with really low track cars just don't notice or even realize that wheel tugging back and forth in fast sweepers is bump steer, probably assuming its just stiff springs or bad shocks. Drive a properly set up car (any brand/model) though, and the steering is "calm" through those same fast lumpy sweepers.

That's the long answer. Short answer is..experiment. If I had to recommend a starting point, any car below 5.5" pinch weld heights should use the R pkg OTR geometry at minimum. Below that height, we also space the rack up 1/4". Actually have a product planned for that, on the list for like 6 years. Prototypes in the shop, never finished and put into production. But you can make your own. NA particularly easy.

Thank you for the info. I hadn't fully considered how big of an issue bumpsteer could be on these cars until I saw a photo of me at my local track (Brands Hatch). Paddock Hill bend has a huge compression (Xida race 700/400 4.5" pinch weld + 9J 6UL will have tyre to arch contact here) and it appears that I'm steering right, but the wheel is not! (NA OTR, 1/4" rack spacer)

Instagram

View this post on Instagram

If you get R-Package tie rods from Mazda I bet you dont get any bump steer :giggle:

Not quite sure how to read this... I know NB front suspension with R-package ball joints is the best, but are you saying NA with rack spacer and ball joints is still bad?

I'm saying if you and E both got legit r package toe rods the rack spacer is pointless.

You measured bump steer on Trans car and know what usage he's tuning it for?

Finally installed my tie rod ends from Supermiata, and all that bump steer is gone. Very underrated upgrade for depowered steering racks. *EDIT* Checked my notes, and I sourced them from somewhere else. They were OEM R-package.
Any suggestion on when to re-grease uppers? I take it that grease zerk isn't for show.

Bruh it's a placebo. They are pro forged tie rods that do not have R Package geometry.

And you have personally measured examples of both, ball pivot location to knuckle seat?

We have a simple Longacre Bump Steer gauge that's been used to measure many cars over the years, both front and rear. It's useful for us to learn how to correlate how the suspension feels to what the actual bump steer curve looks like. Many light bulb moments when looking at the resultant spreadsheet plotted curve after driving the car. Also interesting to see various OEM tuning philosophies. The AP1 S2000 vs and NA vs and ND1 for example. Wildly different curves that each impart specific handling characteristics. The rear of the ND1 for example, is wonky curve that explains why the car gets so squirrelly in lumpy turns when you add stickier tires to the stock suspension. Stay with slippery OEM tires that don't generate much roll moment and it's a much better balanced and predictable car. AP1's curve clearly explains why it is trying to kill you most of the time. NA's explains why it is so sweet and predictable. Factor in bushing deflection which also affects toe angle and you have a complex mix of factors to deal with when trying to sort out the best handling with high grip tires.

I don't believe that is accurate, I have a set of tie rod ends I ordered a month ago and haven't installed yet, here they are compared to a photo of Proforged tie rod ends on Rockauto. I have a digital caliper on hand if anyone wants me to measure stuff, they look almost identical in dimension to R Pkg Tie Rod ends from what I can tell, but I don't have any on hand to compare.



https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...1638a5f5a9.jpg


Proforged Tie Rod ends

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...c0babc715d.jpg

Those definitely look like type R tie rods to me. Clean looking castings on the outer shell. I’ll hit it for sure when my current ones die.

But they arnt. Otherwise they would market as such.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...09e059682d.jpg

When I was in the market to buy 93le style tie rods, Supermiata's website seemed a bit ambiguous as to what I would be receiving. I found this website that makes it clear that they offer a 93le style tie rod.
https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-79xy...=2&imbypass=on

It would have helped decision making if Supermiata had a side by side comparison of what they sell versus a non 93le option like what is shown below.

My question would be, what can I not tell? that these two tie rods are not the same tie rod or that they are 100% identical? Because I can see a difference between the two.







https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...46fbf9bd11.jpg




https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...fecf08cb46.jpg

The angle of the tie rod end doesn't do anything for the bump steer. It only effects the working angle which could reduce binding in some situations. The critical dimension is from the pivot to knuckle.

Are you suggesting that a measurement such as this would be irrelevant then?
https://revlimiter.net/blog/wp-conte...3/DSC_1135.jpg

Yes. You could make a tie rod a curly Q, but it only acts from the pivot on the ITR (rack end) and the ball joint on the ORT (knuckle). In simplified suspension models, its just seen a straight line. Other features of the tie rod ends are to avoid contact with other items or prevent binding at extreme angles of travel.

After cutting up and measuring standard, R-package, and our forged tie rods, we have discovered that our offering is not fully R-package geometry as we had believed and have updated our website to reflect that. The geometry falls between R-package and standard geometry. So there is still a mild improvement in bump steer characteristics on lowered cars, combined with the benefit of a stronger part. OE replacement, stronger forged parts. Tough to cut open!

We know adding 1/4" (6.35mm) rack spacers reduces bump steer even with R pkg OTR's so we're now gathering data to see if a new, even more offset OTR will have the same benefit as rack spacers.
That will take a while. We'll publish more data when we have a more complete picture.

Great to see you trying other geometries. If you can specify your own geometries, have you considered extended lower ball joints with some roll center correction added too? Ie offset the ball vertically as well as axially.

I ordered some genuine r-pkg ball joints and put them on the car. I measured the bumpsteer both before and after, but only on one side. The measurement below is per side, not total.

Pertinent car info

• Complete NA front suspension (subframe, knuckles etc)
• 1/2" garagestar rack spacers
• Bauer ELBJs (changing inner to outer pivot distance on the arm will slightly affect bumpsteer)
• Generic parts store standard NA tie rods and genuine r-pkg ball joints
• Only measured the range of travel I get for my ride height with my dampers (Xida race) - at 74mm compression the 195/50R15 tyre was scrubbing the top of the arch.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...3be86caaa9.png
Caveats... This was measured with a string alignment kit setup at ride height, ie at large displacements from ride height, the toe will be slightly under-reported since I'm not measuring across the total diameter of the wheel. Also, it's pretty tricky to do this accurately by yourself, but every point should be at least within 1mm of toe and 1mm of vertical travel...

I went back to standard after this measurement, and am now strongly contemplating an NB subframe swap before this car does a trackday at the 'Ring this coming May.... 20mm total bumpsteer would be pretty interesting during some parts of the track, especially the 140mph huge compression that is the Foxhole....

Thanks for the data points! Would be interesting to see what happens without the rack risers.

I measured bump steer on an NA with v8r’s subframe, customer wanted rack spacers installed. Measured a little toe out with compression, put a 1/8” spacer in which made it worse. If anything I wanted less space. You might try the same.

Im 90% certain this was stock ‘90 knuckles, don’t remember if he had different outer tie rods.

The unknown variable there is V8R's dimensional accuracy. I'd give that data an *

But overall, it would be more useful to the community to start a new thread with bumpsteer data.

Emilio, do those upper ball joints fit v8r upper arms? I believe I saw someone had used the v8r ball joints on stock arms but can't find that. Any idea if they are the same? Thanks

No idea, sorry. If OEM NA ball joints fit the V8R FUCA, then ours will. If they are built for some other non-OEM compatible UBJ, then no.