suspension advice
 

I've already done a full google on this. I guess I'm looking for people's gut feeling about the best path forward.

Consider my suspension a blank slate at this point. I'm going to rip everything out and replace it. I made one or two stupid purchases in the past and everything else is worn out.

My dilemma is that I have way too much power for stock suspension/tires but I'm not willing to run aero or hoosiers because streetcar. I do run sticky street tires and long wearing r-compounds, but I've been at 205/50/15 for years now.

My original plan that I got the wife to sign off on a year ago was to get xidas. Then I decided to do the bushings while I was in there. Now I'm wondering whether to upgrade wheels/tires/brakes....

Anyway, I smell mission creep and I need some perspective.

Funny, I'm in Tampa right this moment, and thank GOD for that, as the low in Denver earlier today was 26 degrees, with a windchill of 19!

Care to describe how much power your car puts to the ground, and what your aim for the suspension is? Tampa roads are BLESSED, in that potholes are few and far in between, so road manners are less important here than say Pennsylvania or Ohio. FL is cursed as curvy roads are few and far in between, unless one drives to Marion and Lake Counties in a consistent basis.

Step 1: Buy the Xida BGK
Step 2: Buy a @SADFab bronze bearing conversion kit for the poly bushings.
Step 3: Install everything.
Step 4: just profit, No question.

You might also look into what's cheaper: buying the full BGK AND the SADFAB kit, or just buying the Xidas, sways+blocks, and endlinks from 949 and then get all the bushing stuff from SADFab.

If you want to upgrade wheels/tires/brakes go for it, but if you do this to your suspension you are going to absolutely love it.

You do realize that not everyone has $2,500 to spend on a suspension at the drop of a hat, right? More so, since Tampa roads are SMOOTH, going spendy out here is somewhat unnecessary. This I say, as I drive my Miata in Tampa, with Fat Cat coilovers, right now.

You do realize that he said he was planning on Xidas, right? :rolleyes:

Also, FCM's are more expensive than Xidas.

also, LOL at only needing good suspension if your roads are shit

Yo, when did I recommend FCM'S? I just said I own them. Also, he stated that he needs to run the XIDAS by his wife, wanna guess what the problem with XIDAS is? PRICE.
When was the last time you drove in Tampa, since you are obviously so good and knowledgeable about it?

One more thing genius, If I can get a suspension that will work in the roads around my house, and I don't have to spend a big coin on it, shouldn't I at least explore it?

Now, go back and drink more of that 3.2 swill they sell in that multiple wives state of yours. It's obviously not working.

Read his post again and quit being such an asshole. He already got the xida plan signed off by his wife.

Also, Fuck off.

Not 100 percent on my math here, but:

XIDA BGK (2720) + Sadfab bronze kit (300) = $3000
XIDA coilovers (2020 with mounts + dual springs) + sadfab full package (delrin/bronze/spherical) (600) + 949 sway kit (449) + NB hats (100) + extended ball joints (140) = $ 3300
FCM coilovers= $pay us a consulting fee and we'll let you see the prices
Flyin Miata= something I've never heard of before for 1900 bucks, vmax for 1000 bucks and 15.8mm rear sways with everything
Other options? Seems like every miata web store has a 1000 dollar coilover set that might be either cheap chinese garbage or the bargain of the century. I'm just not in the market for 1000 dollar lottery ticket.

So basically it boils down to 949 suspension with bronze bushings = 3000 bucks, delrin for 300 more.

Holy shit, calm down guys.

^OP, XIDAS are NICE, no bones about it. But if I lived in the 813, 727 or 863, I'd take a hard look at a set of VMAXX Sports. I'll be back in Denver in about a month, and my FCM's or XIDAS are a necessity out there. But here in the low flatlands, frankly they are almost overkill. Now, if you track or have plans for BIG horsepower, and have cash to burn, yeah XIDAS certainly scratch that itch.

If xidas aren't going to be wasted on my 205/50/15 setup with no aero, then I am going to stick with that as a plan.

As for FM, I've been there done that, don't want to send them money for another shitty suspension package with an oversized rear sway and soft springs.

Is the $2720 the price with the spherical tophats? Regular NB tophats will lower NVH a bit.

You can certainly do the whole spherical stuff, but just doing the poly with the bronze bushing kit (<$300) will get you phenomenal performance without a bit hit in NVH.

Also, I'd stick with 700/400 rates.

What's your intended use for the car?

Mostly street driving, track days (probably at sebring) when I can fit them in.

edit: I have 300whp, ballpark. I haven't dynoed the car since the rebuild (just finished), still breaking in the clutch. I think I have all the reliability mods for a turbo track car.

Well, I think the XIDAs are a fantastic value in the performance and feature/$. Certainly better than the revalved Billies from FCM (I own both, so . . .).

Based on your usage, I would do the XIDAs with NB tophats and swaybars for now. Even with 700/400, the XIDAs are so good that it's completely streetable.

As for the heavy-duty track stuff like bushings and ELBJs . . . it can be done later and you'll know when it's time.

I think one thing some folks misinterpret is that if you're not aggressively tracking the car they think there's no benefit to using quality shocks.

That's totally incorrect, and in some cases the inverse is true. Budget billies work very well on track but simply do not ride as well as Xidas. Aside from the couple of tenths you gain on track, you also gain excellent ride quality on the street. This ride quality benefits you whether you're on pothole-ridden roads or just when going over normal undulations/expansion joints/etc.

If you can afford quality shocks there is no reason to pass on them. And ultimately when you're done with the car, you'll get better resale value out of them, largely offsetting the higher initial cost.

My bushings are 20 years old. It's time.

A lttle more input on the rest of your setup: nothing wrong with sticking to 205s if your budget doesn't allow going to 9's and 225s quite yet. I'd go ahead and do the bushings/sways/shocks all at once, then brakes as soon as you can if you're at 300 ish whp, then tires. I ran 205s for a while on a similar setup (Xidas, BGK, 300 whp, BBK) and it was great.

At the risk of going off into the weeds here, is 15x9 and 225s really that noticeable a difference over 205s and 15x7s?

Hence why I asked about your usage.

My 1990 turbo Miata is daily driven on the bushings that were installed in Hiroshima. Street-driven Miatas are EXTREMELY easy on their bushings thanks to double wishbones front and rear and limited suspension travel in normal operation. Plus, the bushings get firmer with age.

The exception to the above would be areas where road salt use might have chemically attacked the rubber or extreme driving where a lot of suspension travel might have torn the bushing material. Bottom line, don't condemn Miata bushings based upon age alone. OTOH, bushings are cheap to replace (just a bit time consuming), so . . . . Personally, I'm glad that my daily has rubber and equally glad that my track car has poly.

As for wheels and tires, I'd say that 15x9s are very noticeable vs. 15x7s on track. Doesn't matter at all on the street. 225 vs. 205 . . . heck, every tire manufacturer varies. A 205 Hoosier is wider than a 225 Maxxis, so :dunno:

Again, honestly assess your usage. Things like bushings, ELBJs and wider wheels/tires are track items. Also, all of these things are easily added later. The important part is to not make a mistake on the fundamental part of your suspension.

Thanks. I had no idea about that, I just assumed everything on the car was ready to be replaced by this point.

I guess I could get away with xidas and going back to a factory sway in the rear. That would trim about 1300 bucks and a weekend of labor off the near term amount and fix everything I hate about the car right now.

Edit: anyone know where you buy a factory swaybar? I figure there must be a million of them lying around somewhere.

Junkyard. Found my spare 12mm in a wrench-a-part.

tagged you in a thread where a guy is selling a BNIB supermiata sway set.

Hopefully this will help you...

You are running r comps, so 700/400 is too soft. You want 800/500 bgk, and the billet coaxials.

The delrin is worth it. Self lubricating, but still drill and install grease fittings (included in sadfab kit)

205 tires are fine, your grip will drastically improve with the above mods. Honestly it will astound you.

i daily drive this setup, little on the stiffer side, but totally worth not bottoming out or rubbing mid corner (i personally hate that, and it is very distracting)

pm me with any questions.

Please note: I disagree with Marcello on the spring rate issue. Our are very comparable weight, and I'm on 700/400 and he's on 800/500. His car does handle great but the ride is too firm for street for my taste.

Thats just what 949 recommends. For 300whp (what i was going for) and r comps 800/500.

stock power on r comps dual duty 750/450

stock power performance summers, street only 700/400

iirc

Power doesn't dictate suspension choice, grip does.

on the Xida site it says:

1000/500 Hoosier 225/45 ~ 275/35/15
800/500 Race - Track or autocross focused, 40~100tw race or 200tw UHP
800/400 STS - STS autocross class only
700/400 Sport - For high grip street tires, 200tw. Casual autocross or HPDE
550/350 Touring - Street comfort, not for 200tw or race tires

If you're going to do mostly street, I think one would be happier with the 700/400. I run 225 RS3's and will go up to 245 RS4's when these wear out, and I expect to still be very satisfied with 700/400 rates.

I run 700/400 currently. Moving to 850/500 still on street tires.

Cash me ousside.

Yes, but... You're concealer.

I GO HARD.

I'm guessing 800/500 on Xidas with proper damping settings rides better than my current 600/450 on koni sports (dd/time trials) at nearly full firm. Unless your roads are garbage it can't possibly be that bad, but depends on primary usage I reckon.

Oh I'm sure you're right. 800/500 is still drivable, but 700/400 is almost plush and just rides great while still providing excellent on track performance.

Regardless. I don't think there's really a wrong answer here. 700/400 vs moar because moar is going to be determined by preference, tire, and surface you run the car on.

I run 700/400 with the 1.25" RB front bar, MSM rear bar, 15x9 225/45 RS3s and it feels like a Cadillac.

Switching to 850/500 with same bars, but 15x10 245/40 VR1 and i fully expect it to ride a TOUCH worse and might actually be "slower" over bad surfaces (Looking at you, Chasing the Dragon Hillclimb), but overall probably a gain in performance and sets me up nicely for going with manpants tires later.

Also: a 205/50 long wearing R Comp likely isn't generating more grip than today's "Super 200s." That spring rate guide has remained unchanged for quite some time.

My body is ready.

Interesting. Looks like the spring rate recommendations have changed over the years. IIRC, when I bought, 700/400 was the race and 800/500 was the high grip/smooth track recommendation. That was the write-up for Gen 1 XIDAs though. Perhaps as the shocks improved, they could handle more spring.

Anyways, doing fine on 700/400 with the front sway set to max stiff. Great tire wear and great times. No complaints.

my flaccid penis would dampen better than koni sports.

how do you not have back problems and concussions from spring rates that high with that trash?

Because I'm not a girly man who can't deadlift 2x bodyweight and already have dropped baby syndrome, so it's kind of a wash.

FWIW, I'm in a similar boat. Here's my plan:

1. Get Xidas (700/400, dual springs, NB mounts) with appropriate sway bars
2. Replace inner tie rods (because old and loose)
3. Replace outer tie rod ends with R-package parts (because old and loose and bump steer)
4. ELBJs for moar camber at moar ride height - I am currently here
5. Wheels and BBK would be next on the list, though I am not turbo yet so should be able to work with what I have for awhile
6. Bushings. Undecided whether to do delrin or poly with bronze bearings.

May push bushings up if I find my control arms sliding on the bushings while on track.

As a note for those considering ELBJs or offset lower bushings to increase front camber: Using these camber adders will make you run a lot of caster, increasing steering effort, particularly without power steering. With ELBJs, Thumpetto was only able to get down to like 6-6.5* caster, and on my car with offset front lower delrin bushings I'm stuck at right around 5.5*.

I'm totally happy with steering effort at 5.5*, but some may not be.

I run 6.6 caster as is, stock BJs. Depowered MSM rack.

Challenge accepted.

I agree with this. I have the ELBJ and the Sadfab offset bushings. I should have only done one of them, not both. I don't think the alignment guy could get below about 6* of caster.

lol

yes definitely don't need both. I'd suggest you either pull the bushings or the ELBJ's. I can easily reach 3* of camber or more with just the offset bushings. Aidan was over 4* with the ELBJs.

I got the offset bushings because they were cheaper than ELBJs but if I were doing it again, I'd just go with ELBJs.

@concealer404 Yeah, i did the same thing for a while, but when I got my new alignment this winter I had him minimize camber and I definitely like it better at 5.5 than at 6.5*.

I'll see if it bothers me on the new setup. Other people have called it a little bit "high effort" i suppose, but it's the easiest-steering project car i've had in a decade, so it doesn't bug me.

I didn't even think about that. Fortunately I've been running the FM alignment which has 5* caster, so shouldn't be as big of a jump as if I was coming from 3.5-4*.

Just got a rear sway with end links and bushings (and all the nuts and bolts) for 20 at the pick and pull. Solid advice that was. Thanks guys.

Itried to find an unmolested front bumper to replace my damaged one but no luck. Every one was torn up.

edit: was from a 94, so probably 11mm. I'll see how I like it vs the 16mm FM bar.

Update:

1. Stock rear sway bar feels much less twitchy than the 16mm FM one. Handling has an almost stock feel to it. Car telegraphs way before it breaks traction.
2. Cant' get below 5.3 caster, am running 2 front, 1.6 rear camber, alignment feels really good. I should have gotten the car aligned earlier.
3. Even with the depowered rack, 5.3 caster isn't as ridiculously bad as I had expected.

^yay!

enjoy it thoroughly!

Glad you like it. Sounds like a great street alignment.