concealer404

iTrader: (3)

You need to read. Start in the main thread and go backwards if you'd like. You've been fed the answer to every question in here. Every question you've asked has been addressed in the last 6 months of that thread in addition. There's pros and cons to everything. Including top hats. Pick what you're comfy with.

You have been given the tools. Now you need to put on your big boy pants and make a decision. There's really not any more info to gather. It's all been slid into your gaping maw like a mother bird feeding her chick.

sixshooter

iTrader: (12)

ISC isn't junk. It's just not pretty. It's functional.

All NB info will translate to the NA. Don't get it twisted.

ThePanduuh

see, there WAS a full set of isc extended top hats for $110 shipped. I could get picky and sand them down and paint them in my backyard, but they'll never be seen once they're in the car. i'd probably paint them. but they're only $41 each for 1". I think I'll only do the rear extended and use NB stock front, and up the spring rate a little (600/350?)

I drove a car tonight with xida gen 2, just around the block, and 700/400 felt good. stock NA suspension is a joke. i threw the car in a corner and it didn't roll it's face to the floor.

also: goodwin racing has extended rears for $75 each if i want to spend more. and they don't recommend extending the front because "Using extended travel top hats in the front can allow the tire to contact the inner wheel well."

Fireindc

iTrader: (13)

Yeah there was. But someone else reading this bought them already.

ThePanduuh

so what are you doing lol
i should have bought those. but didn't obviously because i was told they were "junk" and missed out. now i'll be paying for it.

Fireindc

iTrader: (13)

At MSRP they are most definitely "junk" in comparison to some of the other options out there. For $110 for all 4 they should be substantially better than stock.

As for my build, I'm still figuring the rest out. Probably NB billies and transfer over my current 425/300 GC spring/perches from my KYB's and FCM 36mm bumpstops that I already have. Still to be determined though as I read through the mountains of information out there.

concealer404

iTrader: (3)

The ISC have no provisions to truly keep the shaft located. Tons of examples where the middle holes have been wallered out.

OP if you want our advice, ask us. If you want Goodwin's advice, ask them. Stop playing people against people. You were already informed in this thread in which scenarios Goodwin's hats will work in the front. You were already informed exactly what you needed to do to make their hats work in the front, if you fall into one of those scenarios in which they will work.

It's REALLY aggravating.

emilio700

iTrader: (3)

The simple truth is that there are no high quality/ high performance coilovers for the NA/NB at $1000.

By high performance, I don't necessarily mean lap times with race tires. High performance in context of a the average daily diver that sees some sporting use is low NVH, compliance, responsiveness and control.

NVH: High frequency vibration from road surface or sympathetic vibrations in the car. A small piston with poor pressure balancing and cheap, high friction parts working through sloppy tolerances will simply not absorb and dampen the little road texture type of inputs.
That "noise" then makes other stuff in your 25 year old car rattle (sympathetic vibrations). Good shock cost money to build, but they can look just like cheap shocks.

Compliance: Oversimplified, is bottoming resistance. This is a combination of adequate low speed damping with enough oil flow at high piston velocities to absorb big sharp impacts. It also requires the correct shock body length for the ride height, vehicle weight and spring rate being used. Bump stop dimensions, geometry, material, durometer and hysteresis also factor in acutely. Rebound damping and droop travel effect how the shock feels on the other side of that big hit. Some shocks might absorb the actual bump but kick hard in rebound because they lack sufficient rebound blow off for higher piston speeds and also lack sufficient droop travel. Cheap shocks get everything wrong and crash through medium sized bumps then yank you against the belts on rebound. Good shocks "bloop" through the bump with barely a nudge, quickly settling to static ride height with no sharp jolt. This big hit performance is never an accident. It's engineered.

Responsiveness: Low speed damping. Impact from the road surface generate high shock piston speeds. Lower piston speeds, say below 3 in/sec are largely driver inputs; Steering, braking, throttle. Too little low speed damping and the car feels sluggish or wallows after an input. Too much low speed damping and the car feels quick but also jittery and nervous, not "planted". A poorly designed or cheap shock might nail the low speed but not be able to decrease damping enough for higher piston speeds. What you get then is good response but bad ride quality in general. The much loved Tokico Illumina do this. Almost enough low speed damping on stiff settings but harsh, jarring ride quality, Turned to softer settings, they ride OK but wallow like you have half inflated tires. For some drivers, this is "almost right" is acceptable. Good shocks will provide that platform of low speed damping while still absorbing big hit/ high piston velocity impacts well.

Control: This is am amalgam of all the qualities described above. Bottoming resistance, a good low speed damping platform, good high speed blow off, heat rejection so the shocks act the same after a 30 minute drive on a hot day, enough NVH absorprtion so the drive can feel the road texture without being overwhelmed by "noise" coming up through the seat and steering wheel.

For years, we have recommended DIY Bilstein setups for budgets under $1000. FM or Tein lowering springs or ebay sleeves and 450-550 fronts paired with 300-350 rears. The Bilstein is the highest quality shock in this price range. Damping rates aren't perfect and the bodies are a tad too long but is as close as you are going to get until something better comes along. The next step is, well, you already know that answer.

maplewood

iTrader: (2)

If it makes you feel any better, there's likely a lot of newbs/lurkers reading that will still get value from the thread.

ThePanduuh

that's what forums are for. preserving valuable information. it helps if it's concise, like a thread that's 1/8 the size which contains only the most valuable information like what works/what doesn't, what has improved as far as availability of things since the thread is now 5 years old, but I guess the OG thread is still used for that kinda thing and we're just supposed to figure it out on our own. but why would one come to the forum if not for that information? seems it's more of a trial and error thing which is what I was trying to avoid. doing suspension over and over trying different things seems asinine when the research has been done already...

concealer404

iTrader: (3)

This is a thread of garbage, punctuated with spoon feeding, with very little actual information for learning and leading people to make their own decisions. It's best to understand what you're doing, before you do something like this. This thread goes 100% against that.

The other thread has everything, as we've posted dozens of times in this thread. You ARE supposed to figure it out on your own. That's how you're sure you're making the decisions that best fit your needs. That thread is an education.

This thread is McDonald's.

mgeoffriau

iTrader: (7)

And now there's two threads for noobs to read through.

concealer404

iTrader: (3)

Yep. Makes the signal:noise ratio twice as bad.

huesmann

iTrader: (1)

More like half as good.

ridethecliche

iTrader: (2)

https://www.miataturbo.net/miata-par...5/#post1498917

ThePanduuh

thanks for the lead! but fortunately I've found someone who, without being an *******, explained to me what I should need based on what he has done in the past, including what he's done to achieve the same ride height I've done, and guess what?? He makes custom top hats (made from NB top hats to any length you want), machines Hard S shocks for lower circlips, machines ebay sleeves for the circlip, and sells them both at very reasonable prices, comparable to Maruha for top hats WITH fresh NB bushings!

Using his stuff, I save about $250 (bringing total cost to ~$750). I'm going with 25mm (1") extended top hats all around. And he also recommended some bump stop lengths to start with (much wow) for that ride height. He does this all in house. He does not get rich from this, but does it as a hobby. He's a very cool dude that was easy to talk to and wasn't a stubborn ******* who wants me to take my car apart 500 times before I arrive at the end state, and I'm definitely hitting him up when I'm ready to buy.

concealer404

iTrader: (3)

So, this is your juvenile passive aggressive way to tell us that you found someone that told you all the same stuff that we told you in this thread, with the addition of bump stop length that nobody could possibly make a guess at until you decided exactly which top hats you were going to use?

Nice. Congrats.

For the amount of ridiculous spoon feeding you required, you do not get to call us ******** for helping you.

ThePanduuh

aaaand again, your idea of "spoon feeding" is ridiculous. If I wanted you to come to my house and build them for me that's one thing... but if so many people are doing this, why can't anyone post up what setup they're using, what issues they ran into, final cost, things that would help noobs get an idea of where to get started and what they're getting into. So far everyone I've talked to has called you (all of you) ********. Again I refer to the point of the forum being for documentation purposes... But if no one documents anything, how does anyone know if you even did it?? You are indeed ******** for being stubborn, aggressive know it all's. If you know so much, why not make a one stop thread, "beginner bilstein coilover thread," where you can talk about rates, top hat configs, bump stops, how ride height will change the combination of those three... That thread is 80 pages of information that's scattered throughout the whole 80 pages. There has to be a way of summarizing that, and modernizing it to bring it up to 2018. Sorry not everyone has 3 cars, 4 different setups available to them at all times, and doesn't want to rip their car apart 17 times getting their setup perfect. If there was some guidelines then maybe you only have to rip it apart 2 or 3 times.

I wish you all luck with new members.

brainzata

iTrader: (4)

Most here have read through everything possible in order to come to conclusions by themselves rather than trust in one single opinion. You are just too ******* lazy. No one deserves to be spoon fed off others hard work. It's your job to use others hard work to make your own conclusion and not start demanding time from others to help you decide because you don't want to put in the effort to figure it out. Get off your race car bed and go find answers by yourself so you can be sure through lots of reading that you found a common answer and it makes sense to you. Not just because someone told you so.

ThePanduuh

There is no common answer... I tried that route, asking others opinions, and I got told I'm "playing people off of eachother." If there is no common opinion, then what? I'm in a sea of opinions and all of them are slightly different. I questioned about the point of contention and was met with "quit asking to be spoonfed." How the **** does that help? That's right it doesn't. And I will not waste my time and money buying and trying different setups when I know 100% for a fact someone out there has done exactly the setup I'm looking for and wouldn't mind answering simple questions like do you need front extended top hats for your ride height and spring rate. By the way, the only single opinion I've trusted so far is concealer's opinion that I need front extended top hats. The general consensus is that I don't for the ride height I'm looking for, but I'm going to buy them anyway because why not, I don't want to do it twice... Worst case is I have too much shock travel and I make up for that with a bigger bump stop. and if no one publishes their hard work, how can I find/read it? this is why i mentioned making a thread with people's setup (use, rate, shock, ext hats, bump stop, ride height, final cost, issues ran into) and how they like it. that's much more concise and far quicker than reading through 80+ pages of incremental changes. or a summary of the BBCT. not asking to be spoonfed, just asking for some organization and better voiced completed builds... then from there a noob can say "i'm going to do X from this persons build and Y from that person's build because I'm a little of both of their use cases..."