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Thanks - it was really a theoretical question as I saw V8R had gone that way with their Ohlins TTX's and that Tractive had pictures on their website of similar for other applications.
Single adjustables will be plenty for me when I get round to buying some (and I'm 100% sure my hamfisted driving couldn't tell the difference!)
Pre production prototype Xida ACE for NA/NB. The canister was implemented to preserve nitrogen volume as the ACE internals take up some of the space. The ***** on the canister are dummies, no adjustments there.
It's difficult to convey just how excited we are to be able to bring these to market. The ride quality is sublime while having that ability to stiffen for hard cornering or braking instantly. It's eerie to feel the car floating over broken pavement then just hunker down when you stab the brakes or crank the wheel. You quickly get used to it and start to feel a bit like Superman (or Superwoman).
To me, that shock assembly represents the pinnacle of NA/NB suspension. I'm eager to here what people think about the ride and handling once these start making their way out into the wild.
Its hard to tell, but is that just a couple of wires to control the oil valve (edit: if there's even a controllable valve)? Are the electromechanics really in the shock body!? Mind is being blown... Desire to see internals is skyrocketting... PWM control?
Some pics from testing today. Finally got the ACE for NA/NB installed in "Scully", Dan's red MCS. 550/300 rates because we were out of 350's. As this is just a temp setup for testing, the brain and controller not permanently installed. Ran it at 6" pinch weld with 205/50 Maxxis VR-1 on our 15x8 6UL. OEM sway bars, links and bushings.
Settings are 1-5, 5 being stiffest
DDA is base stiffness
Roll is how much the shocks stiffen in response to lateral acceleration
Pitch is how much the shocks stiffen in response to fore-aft acceleration/deceleration
For highway and around town, we think 1 DDA, 2-4 roll, 2-3 pitch is nice. Lets it float over bumps when driven normally but responds quickly when you carve into a freeway on ramp. On a twisty, lumpy back road, DDA 1 is too soft. Adjust DDA to 2-3 for most sticky street tires when hooning. Maybe DDA 4 for track or autocross use. Roll on 5 is nice in hoon mode as you don't get any stiffness reaction until you snap into a turn.
A few general notes about the ACE
Higher Roll Center = softer springs
The taller ride height significantly raises the roll center. The increase in roll stiffness is instantly apparent. As if you bolted on big sway bars. For this reason, we are going to recommend sticking with stock sway bars for all the Xida XL, GS and ACE variants. Adjusting the ACE controller to roll 3 or 4 and the roll is so much reduced that stiff sway bars would only detract from grip and ride quality.
Shocks partially take the place of sway bars
Because the ACE actively stiffen the shocks when needed, there is a reduced need for stiff springs. We figure most XL/GS and ACE owners will be after maintaining max ride quality while still having the option for sport or competitive driving. XL & GS require opening up the hood and playing with damping settings to switch from daily to autocross/HPDE. ACE do it on the fly with the touch of a button.
We are going to experiment with 300/200 springs to see just how much Cadillac we can get out of it. Even with 550/300 rates, it's just dreamy even when blasting over the worst pavement and expansion joints.
For the XL variants, we won't even offer the 700/400 and higher rates and higher that are available for Xida Race.
A few more things to validate and we'll put the first batch into production. Much excite!
I apologize for my lack of intelligence and experience in this area, and I am sure there are far more variables to consider when answering this question, but at a high level I assume the ACE suspension is geared more for dual-duty cars whereas the race xidas are still preferable for dedication track cars...?
I apologize for my lack of intelligence and experience in this area, and I am sure there are far more variables to consider when answering this question, but at a high level I assume the ACE suspension is geared more for dual-duty cars whereas the race xidas are still preferable for dedication track cars...?
I appreciate any input!
An XL based Ace setup will have a much higher min ride height capability. There are many pros and cons to that, the biggest pro is that the geometry stays in a range where you retain lots of pitch and roll resistance and don't need the crazy spring rates we sometimes run with Xida Race(as the originals will now be called). Other than that, they have all the same goodness that Xida Race have had all along.
Xida Race are designed to allow much more upward/bump travel than OEM. So they function extremely well at very low ride heights, which is good for Cg, camber gain, and other race oriented stuff.
Xida XL(and therefore Ace) are designed around a closer-to-OEM travel range. This allows us to fit the XL shock into SCCA's ES autocross class, but limits their ride height range. AKA: They can't go low, bruh. The extra body length allows us to fit the Ace valve, etc. The variants are all dependent on each other for any of them to be viable products.
With offset bushings or ELBJs to get the camber(instead of extreme lowering), we forsee the Ace being extremely competitive in classes that allow active/reactive shocks. One Lap of America, Unlimited Time Attack, etc.
They will also quite simply be the most Cadillac option for a dual duty car that we can dream up. :P
With offset bushings or ELBJs to get the camber(instead of extreme lowering), we forsee the Ace being extremely competitive in classes that allow active/reactive shocks. One Lap of America, Unlimited Time Attack, etc.
They will also quite simply be the most Cadillac option for a dual duty car that we can dream up. :P
I realize its probably too early to know (given you haven't had a chance to do any testing/setup experimentation) but any thoughts on how a max performance XL/ACE setup with drop spindles will compare to the normal race setup with high spring rates when both are optimised for best performance?
Trying to get my head around how softer springs for more grip with reactive stiffening dampers for roll/pitch control would behave- sounds complicated!
I realize its probably too early to know (given you haven't had a chance to do any testing/setup experimentation) but any thoughts on how a max performance XL/ACE setup with drop spindles will compare to the normal race setup with high spring rates when both are optimised for best performance?
Trying to get my head around how softer springs for more grip with reactive stiffening dampers for roll/pitch control would behave- sounds complicated!
We haven't tested the combo but in theory, drop spindles and Xida ACE would be the fastest possible setup.
any good links to the theory of how these shocks work in a road race application? If I am following correctly they increase/decrease the wheel rate as required, but is this for a 'moment' as the shocks still need to control the spring?
Apologies for slightly off topic. Well done to 949 investing in getting something like this out there.
any good links to the theory of how these shocks work in a road race application?
Although the mechanism is different (electro-mechanically activated/controlled valve I think for tractive's ACE), what they're doing is basically the same as magnetorheological dampers - changing the damper forces on the fly with an ECU. Doing some googling I found an interesting literature review in this PhD thesis of semi-active damping strategies: https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/19396958.pdf
Originally Posted by Neddy
If I am following correctly they increase/decrease the wheel rate as required, but is this for a 'moment' as the shocks still need to control the spring?
'Wheel rate' typically refers to spring rate at the wheel (i.e. after motion ratios, spring rate of tyres sometimes etc. are factored in). These don't change the spring rates, they change the amount of damping (i.e. resistance to shock shaft travel). But since it can be semi-actively varied, you can use them to do things like resist chassis movement momentarily in a way that mimics a stiffer spring, while still softening for them at other times for ride compliance (even if the events "look" the same in terms of shaft speed that a non-active damper couldn't react differently too.
Originally Posted by Neddy
Apologies for slightly off topic. Well done to 949 investing in getting something like this out there.
Holy crap this is cool. From Tractive's facebook page - customer-submitted video displaying the damping of each individual shock in real-time based on sensor data from vehicle on track:
Yup. It's hard to explain what the ACE is capable of with a DSC controller. With enough sensors, you can tune in transient wedge. IOW adding low speed compression and softening low speed rebound diagonally to get the car to rotate faster. You can then choose what speeds and by how much. You can then separate and weight different inputs like steering from braking. So you could say, tune it to turn in faster only when trail braking below 50mph at >.6g. Then you have the GPS locating to tune just for a certain corner. Crazy stuff. The Tractive fob that comes with our ACE kits is far simpler but still pretty cool. To get the next level tuneabilty, you order a Restomod DSC control box from TPC Racing and ask for a base map for the Tractive ACE valve.
On a related note, we just got a DSC box for the GT350. Plan to start playing with those maps. Thinking about building an autocross specific map over the top of the Drag map to make use of the launch control, line lock and staging features native to the GT350.
Thinking about building an autocross specific map over the top of the Drag map to make use of the launch control, line lock and staging features native to the GT350.
Please post video of standing burnout at your local autox.
06-19-2017, 07:42 PM
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