For the upcoming autocross season the SCCA has legalized the Vitour P1 for XA/XB and Cam classes. I expect a lot of people will move to these tires, as they offer sizes much wider than any other 200 TW, topping out at a 305/30/15 I know at least one person who will be running those on a ~400 HP Miata. The next widest offerings for 200 TW that I can find are ~245/40/15, which in a class with unlimited power levels become a limiting factor.

I do not plan on running flares, and will most likely stick with a 245 of some sort for the season, however I'm curious to hear if anyone's run these tires either for autocross or on track. There are a few writeups around the web on these but not as much as I had expected.

 

I'm running them on the rear. 245/35-15. I only autocross, no track/mutli lap but we do a few one lap full track autocross. The car is a Lotus Europa (1685lbs/400whp) running in EMod.
I have run BFG Rival-S, Nankang CR-1, RT660's, and now Vitour. With the Vitours, I have 2 autoX and one autocross on a road coarse.

What would you like to know?

 

Mostly just curious how they perform overall. Do they need a lot of heat before they get grippy? Do they tolerate heat well? How is overall grip compared to other offerings? How do they wear (probably not going to have any input on that after a couple events)?

I've only ever ran the RT660, so comparing against those would be the most helpful.

Also I'm interested in hearing more about that Europa

 

My input is only autocross. The car a lot of power and the first run is difficult so I run what ever hooks up the best cold. I only did 6 runs on brand new RT660's before shelving them and going back to BFG Rival-S's. RT660's get hard too fast and aren't great to start. Nankang's were slightly better than RT660's but I shelved those with maybe 20 runs. Rival-S was my favorite and it's what I ran before the Vitours. None of the others had as much first run grip. My very first run on Vitours was a little slippery. After that they have been great. Because our coarse changes each time I can only compare times to other drivers that are always there. I'm on 205 A052 front and 245 Vitour rear. I have moved up a few places in overall time compared to the same national guy drivers so these are faster than the BFG's that were my previous best tire. I measure temps on most runs and all runs for road coarse autoX. They run about the same temps as the BFG's. A052's are 5-10 hotter than CR-1/BFG's. My rears are always much hotter than the fronts. The Vitours haven't showed any negatives (loose rear) after multi runs with more heat. 99% of the pointy end guys get slower with more runs on the road coarse, mine doesn't. Likely the low weight though.

The Europa is a 1969, tubed rear, turbo'd 2GRFE, E153 gearbox, everything is one off. It's light but heavy for a Europa.

 

Neat little car! Always likes them, brother had one which he rebuilt to 47 specs with a twink. You still run the backbone forward of the firewall? Any chassis stiffening, you must be putting some loads into it with those tyres/engine?

 

Yes, stock frame forward of the rear firewall. They eventually crack at the front Tee section. Only way to know is pull the body though. I used a dial indicator and loaded the farthest rear corners when I built it and added a few more tubes.

I forgot to mention the Vitours, at least in the stupid low profile 35's, have needed less camber than all the other 245/40-15's I've run on 15x9's. It doesn't mean much compared to Miata's camber numbers but I was 1.9*, now 1.6*, next week I'll try 1.4*. This is to get the same temp spread I usually have.

 

Thanks for that info! I'm surprised to hear that you liked the Rivals that much. I don't think I know anyone in our club who runs those.

The aspect ratio on the Vitours is a concern for me. With 205/50/15 daily tires the 245/35/15 Vitours would lower the car's pinch weld height by ~17cm (2/3"). The 245/40/15 size is preferable and I think Vitour was talking about offering that size, fingers crossed.

Interesting on the camber point as well. I put a good number of road miles on my car so a little less camber would probably keep the daily tires in better shape.

 

The Rivals aren't much better than Nankang's but enough on the first run cold. I did a lot of street logging (Racelogic TC) of wheel speeds to see how much they slip on just second gear rolls to 70 mph when cold. All the same spot, time of day and almost same temps. With heat the Nankang and Rivals are about the same but we only get 4 runs. The lower height is not ideal, second gear is still good for the coarse but I had to RTV a thin steel sheet on my oil pan due to clearance. I wish the A052's came in a 245/40-15.

 

I agree. I've had to explain the lack of options in 245/40/15 to multiple people. They'll say, "get some real tires and you'd be way faster" not realizing that I'd just grab some A052's or RE71's if they were available.

We get at least 6 runs per event, and usually more like 7-10. That includes a lunch split, so effectively 3-4 runs at a time while the tires are retaining heat.

Overall are you saying the Rivals are faster than the Nankangs, or that the Rivals were faster when cold but the Nankangs were equivalent/faster when both had heat in them?

 

It's hard to quantify faster for me unless I do the same tire on same course. I can only compare my day of times as I move in on the pointy end drivers that don't make mistakes. The Nankangs maybe as fast as Rival's with heat, but on the first run, they are not and on the street they do not hook in second as well, Every tire slips though. I know everyone jumps on the new tire is best (RT660), mostly from 3 laps that GRM did but I find some of their tests questionable. Most of these 200TW tires fail on multi lap road coarse and exceed at autoX but they test on road coarses but only for 3 laps not 10-20. I know the national level guys here spray their tires after one run even if it's 75* and get slower if they get too hot. This is after one 45 second run. I need to do a few logs with the Vitours to see how much the slip difference is at the second gear test spot but I've been way to busy. I went back to Rivals from RT660's less than a year ago and they are now on the shelf as the Vitours are better. I have no problem tossing a tire with 95% life left if there is better tire. I have been just buying a new rear pair, try and if I don't like, I'm not out a full set. This time I put 205 A052's on the front. If the Vitours didn't work I was going to try 225/50 A052's. I still might but I hate to trim the body.

The only down side of the Vitours I could see for a Miata is our autocross courses and your second gear. I hear the fast Miata's banging the rev limiter in second and the 245/35 would make it worse.

 

Again, thanks for all the detail. You are correct on the second gear issue. I'm already planning to go to a 3.6 ratio in the rear (with a 6 speed) to keep 2nd gears max mph higher and am considering raising my rev limit a few hundred RPM as well. That is one of the major reasons I'm thinking I'll go with the Nankangs over the Vitours. If the Vitours were made in a 245/40/15 then I'd be all over it. My car sees a lot of road miles on 205/50/15s so the difference in ride height when going to the vitours is also a consideration for me.

I will keep the Rivals in mind. I have a friend who has won a few national championships in an STS Miata and he thinks the Nankangs would be a better choice than the rivals, but I'm going to keep poking around.

 

I would trust your friend if he has won at nationals. A national guy only cares about his fastest run, not that I don't but I base mine on first run and street grip. I have stupid torque and if it doesn't kind of hook up, it's no fun.

 

I just wanted to update this. Sunday was a regular autocross, I dropped down to 1.3* camber on these to get temps more equal. The car was undriveable. If I thought about lifting the pedal it wanted to spin. Temps were my same 5 degree from outside to middle to inside but it was so loose I had 4 spins in 3 runs and only 1 clean, tip toe run. Sunday night I put 2.4* back in (1.9-2.1* was my previous here) for the roadcoarse autocross on Monday. SCCA says 4 tires off on a roadcoarse and you are done! Don't want to F this up. Temps were still the same 5* per with inside 10-15* hotter than the outside depending on run but it was working as it should be again. Back to neutral, slight throttle on understeer and driveable. Temps say they need less camber but it's not so. These need the same camber as every 245/40-15 I've run. Still happy with them!

 

https://www.scca.com/announcements/8...ing-categories

Looks like the P1 is going to be legal for all 200 TW classes next season, not just CAM/XS. Hopefully this will lead to some better data about how it stacks up.

 

The P1 in 245/40R15 is coming soon. I was talking with a girl from PTS about a week ago and she said they are being built now. They will have them around April. From reading the article in Grassroots and personally talking with Andy H, they are quicker than the CR-Sv2.

 

Interesting to hear. I reached out to Dallas Reed a couple weeks back and he said he didn't expect them to be ready before summer. That makes me think closer to July, but it is pretty vague. TBF he didn't seem to be super confident about the timeline.

I'll probably run my old RT660s for the first few events this year and see what happens with the 245/40 P1.